CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[TheLegend]

Still there’s lots of reasons to be bitter about how the Coyotes have operated since they arrived here.

If you wanted to write an anthology on how not to enter a market or run a sports franchise the Coyotes would be the number one example.

But right now I see Alex Meruelo as something different. Whether he manages to make this work or not remains to be seen. Certainly would have been a lot easier for him had he come along 10 years ago.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

We love it because most of us think it's the most exciting sport in the world and are offended when people believe their city should have the *highest level of it* (because heaven forfend you try to grow the sport through college or minor league activity, it's beneath you).

And that's what I don't get - why it offends you (and so many others like you). I mean, in my lifetime (barely) there was a time when there only 6 teams in the world, and there are now over 5 times as many, and 3.5 times as many as there were then in Canada. There are now 100s of thousands of people in the US in places where water doesn't freeze outside for long, if at all, who *agree* with you that it's the most exciting sport in the world who 30 years ago wouldn't have known it any better than cricket. And they knew basketball, baseball and (Am.) football fine.

For what I know of my own market, we had minor league hockey for decades. When I moved here in the mid 90s (from a state that had even less hockey, Florida) it was kind of a kick to go to a minor league hockey game, like arena football or spring training baseball maybe...but there was no infrastructure here at all - two old barns that were built in the 1970s with single sheets, a rink in a mall that had closed, and a 3rd league that played in the Roadrunners (and formerly, the Suns) arena. Since then there have been 5 brand new facilities built, 4 with 2-3 sheets, and sixth under construction (That's the ASU arena, which will also have a 2nd community ice sheet)...thousands more exposed to the game than would have happened otherwise. If the fact that we had to luck into an NHL team to get all that here offends you, so be it. Them's the breaks. It would not have happened otherwise.

 

[BMN]

LAnd that's what I don't get - why it offends you (and so many others like you)
What offends me is you making no effort to "get it." I'm not asking you to agree, but just to understand. You breezed by everything else I typed.

FYI, as I've said in multiple posts, I hope the Tempe project is a wild success should it move forward (I live in Atlanta, I congratulate you on your many new rinks.....Lord knows that didn't happen here).

I'm not annoyed by those that root for the Coyotes to succeed because they, in fact, want the Coyotes to succeed. I'm just annoyed by the "ipso facto" thinking and the assumption that Canadians only love hockey because apparently we have nothing else to do in life.....

 

[aqib]

And if my screed above reads as condescending, I assure you it's still 50% less condescending as "Calgary loves the Flames because there $#!+@|| else to do or watch in Calgary..."

Trust me I get so annoyed when people when people say "there is nothing to do in (fill in the blank cold weather city/smaller city).

 

[OG6ix]

Trust me I get so annoyed when people when people say "there is nothing to do in (fill in the blank cold weather city/smaller city).

To be fair in terms of sports there is really only the flames. Unless there is a massive fanbase for minor leagues like CFL and Lacrosse.

 

[aqib]

To be fair in terms of sports there is really only the flames. Unless there is a massive fanbase for minor leagues like CFL and Lacrosse.

That of "there is nothing else to do in ______" is about sports in general not just hockey. I used to get that line about Cleveland a lot from people who have never been there.

 

[Llama19]

“Arizona Coyotes plan to privately finance new arena, entertainment district, team president/CEO says” reads the ESPN headline, but the story itself reports that Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez actually said, “It’s going to be privately financed. … And then we have made a request to have the city issue bonds whose sole collateral would only be the land and the real estate, so the taxpayers would never be at risk.” Which is not how “privately financed” or “not at risk” actually work — regardless of the collateral, Tempe taxpayers would be out at least $200 million — but “[person with a fancy title] says” allows for a lot of non-reporting by news outlets like ESPN, the better to move on to writing the next six posts of the day. (An even better time saver: Just make quotes up! Those articles about McDonald’s employees leaping out drive-through windows to save people choking on chicken nuggets aren’t going to write themselves!)

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/06/17/18938/friday-roundup-when-stadium-cbas-go-sour-zimbalist-explains-why-he-takes-team-money-and-rob-manfred-doesnt-understand-how-road-games-work/

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^ My boy at Field Of Schemes is always good for a laugh.

Talks about news outlets making up stuff by making up stuff of his own.

 

[gstommylee]

^^^^ My boy at Field Of Schemes is always good for a laugh.

Talks about news outlets making up stuff by making up stuff of his own.

Talk about ignoring that the city would be on the hook for cleaning up the land REGARDLESS of what goes there.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

^^^^ My boy at Field Of Schemes is always good for a laugh.

Talks about news outlets making up stuff by making up stuff of his own.

And then of course *we* have to find out about it because megathread.

 

[JMROWE]

I am saying this is just bad business building a new arena for a team that could never fill there old one along with going bankrupt not to mention being evicted from there old one & what is going to happen if this arena dose get built & same thing happens & they continue to lose money can't fill the arena what then you going to still say Arizona is a good Hockey market please that is like saying Alaska is a good outdoor baseball market & all I am saying is look at this at a business point of view & see it would make more sense to cut there losses move the team to Houston where still in a deep southern market they have proven them selves to be a good hockey market far better than Arizona .

 

[aqib]

“Arizona Coyotes plan to privately finance new arena, entertainment district, team president/CEO says” reads the ESPN headline, but the story itself reports that Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez actually said, “It’s going to be privately financed. … And then we have made a request to have the city issue bonds whose sole collateral would only be the land and the real estate, so the taxpayers would never be at risk.” Which is not how “privately financed” or “not at risk” actually work — regardless of the collateral, Tempe taxpayers would be out at least $200 million — but “[person with a fancy title] says” allows for a lot of non-reporting by news outlets like ESPN, the better to move on to writing the next six posts of the day. (An even better time saver: Just make quotes up! Those articles about McDonald’s employees leaping out drive-through windows to save people choking on chicken nuggets aren’t going to write themselves!)

Source: www.fieldofschemes.com/2022/06/17/18938/friday-roundup-when-stadium-cbas-go-sour-zimbalist-explains-why-he-takes-team-money-and-rob-manfred-doesnt-understand-how-road-games-work/

Wouldn't that violate Arizona's gift clause by using the city's "Credit in support of" a private project? That would be something Goldwater would be all over.

 

[TheLegend]

Wouldn't that violate Arizona's gift clause by using the city's "Credit in support of" a private project? That would be something Goldwater would be all over.

Goldwater has been in on this from the get go. Meruelo gave them a seat at the table. I’ve only mentioned it a half dozen times.

Gift clause only requires the return has to attempt to be proportional to what they put in.

The estimated $350 million long term return on a $200 million investment is more than proportional. The report from Tempe’s private consultant said the proposal was the best use for the land.

There are still plenty of hurdles to clear on this yet but Goldwater isn’t one.

 

[aqib]

^^^^ My boy at Field Of Schemes is always good for a laugh.

Talks about news outlets making up stuff by making up stuff of his own.

The is the ultimate clickbait site. He just hates on every deal no matter how much it makes sense and it caters to the CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Everything). There was one where the Browns were requesting some infrastructure improvements connecting downtown with the lakefront where the stadium is. Now anyone who has been to Cleveland can see how badly the lakefront is underused and access is part of the problem. So if you had a stadium there or not they still need to address the issue to develop the lakefront. He's like "well developers should pay for that" I'm like "this isn't NYC when you're a midsize city you need to ante up"

Another thing he and I went back and forth about is when I point out the income taxes but players. He keeps played the substitution effect. If there was no team people would go out to dinner, movies, etc so there is no economic growth and movie theaters and restaurants would have to hire more people. Well if the Bills left Buffalo all the waiters are ticket takers that get hired wouldn't make as much as Josh Allen by himself.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I am saying this is just bad business building a new arena for a team that could never fill there old one along with going bankrupt not to mention being evicted from there old one & what is going to happen if this arena dose get built & same thing happens & they continue to lose money can't fill the arena what then you going to still say Arizona is a good Hockey market please that is like saying Alaska is a good outdoor baseball market & all I am saying is look at this at a business point of view & see it would make more sense to cut there losses move the team to Houston where still in a deep southern market they have proven them selves to be a good hockey market far better than Arizona .

You're not allowed to post any more until you start using punctuation.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I am saying this is just bad business building a new arena for a team that could never fill there old one along with going bankrupt not to mention being evicted from there old one & what is going to happen if this arena dose get built & same thing happens & they continue to lose money can't fill the arena what then you going to still say Arizona is a good Hockey market please that is like saying Alaska is a good outdoor baseball market & all I am saying is look at this at a business point of view & see it would make more sense to cut there losses move the team to Houston where still in a deep southern market they have proven them selves to be a good hockey market far better than Arizona .

When did the team not fill it up when they were in the playoffs?

 

[TheLegend]

When someone tries explaining to me how a billionaire with a 100% success rate resurrecting fledgling businesses across several fields wants to build an arena/entertainment district in a prime market location using mostly private funds is a bad business decision.....

...... sigh.....

Nevermind.

It's just the Megathread,

 

[BKIslandersFan]

When someone tries explaining to me how a billionaire with a 100% success rate resurrecting fledgling businesses across several fields wants to build an arena/entertainment district in a prime market location using mostly private funds is a bad business decision.....

...... sigh.....

Nevermind.

It's just the Megathread,

Its part of nationalists mentality. They know better than anyone about anything.

 

[KevFu]

But the other sports are embarrassing. The Cardinals were having blackouts not too far back and the Diamondbacks have poor attendance and hate Chase Field all of a sudden, kind of similar to the Coyotes but no one talks about it as much. These sports have been in the country a century.

It's one thing to say the Coyotes haven't been given a chance. But Phoenix is not a great sports market at all imo.

This type of thing is common in every market that isn't a cornerstone market like NY, LA, BOS, PHI (and some sport specific like STL baseball and DET hockey. And actually some cornerstone markets have the same scenarios going on, too).

The Cardinals stadium doesn't sell out because they built it for the SUPER BOWL, not for the regular season.

The Diamondbacks have the same "problem." They came into the league at the crossroads of "huge multipurpose" giving way to quaint retro ballparks. So it's a BALLPARK, but it's 55,000 seat ballpark when everyone has built 38,000 seat parks since. But they have plenty of room to remove upper deck seats, create party decks and premium suites in the upper levels instead of having empty seats up there. That would be far cheaper than building a new stadium with a retractable roof and AC system.

Chase is a highly underrated park. The D-Backs only "hate" Chase because it's not full of D-Backs fans, 23 other teams have newer ballparks; and it will be 30 years old in 2028 and that's when their 30-year lease runs out. So now is the time to plant the seeds of needing a new place, since it will take 3-4 years to build.


BTW, the Suns have the oldest/worst arena in the market, but it's tied with the DBacks for best location. No one talks about them moving. They've got the best fan base in the market... because they've BEEN HERE 20 years longer than the other three teams.

 

[Summer Rose]

This type of thing is common in every market that isn't a cornerstone market like NY, LA, BOS, PHI (and some sport specific like STL baseball and DET hockey. And actually some cornerstone markets have the same scenarios going on, too).

The Cardinals stadium doesn't sell out because they built it for the SUPER BOWL, not for the regular season.

The Diamondbacks have the same "problem." They came into the league at the crossroads of "huge multipurpose" giving way to quaint retro ballparks. So it's a BALLPARK, but it's 55,000 seat ballpark when everyone has built 38,000 seat parks since. But they have plenty of room to remove upper deck seats, create party decks and premium suites in the upper levels instead of having empty seats up there. That would be far cheaper than building a new stadium with a retractable roof and AC system.

Chase is a highly underrated park. The D-Backs only "hate" Chase because it's not full of D-Backs fans, 23 other teams have newer ballparks; and it will be 30 years old in 2028 and that's when their 30-year lease runs out. So now is the time to plant the seeds of needing a new place, since it will take 3-4 years to build.


BTW, the Suns have the oldest/worst arena in the market, but it's tied with the DBacks for best location. No one talks about them moving. They've got the best fan base in the market... because they've BEEN HERE 20 years longer than the other three teams.

(Preface: this is an agreement post, and it's probably more appropriate to quote who you quoted, but I digress.)

The Cardinals were embarrassing because when they originally moved to Arizona, they had to play in a venue not designed for NFL football, had a shitty owner who didn't spend money on the team, had shitty attendance, were looking to build a permanent home for themselves but were having a hell of a time trying to get it done and it was a drawn-out saga for years and years until it finally happened. Meanwhile, the team sucked year after year, in part because of an owner who didn't spend on the team, and also because of incompetent team management. Wait a minute... that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Mind you, I had the (dis)pleasure of being a Cardinals season ticket holder during that era, and it was quite a lot of fun (hah) to bake in the metal bleachers of a half-empty Sun Devil Stadium with half away fans. I've also been a season ticket holder to the Coyotes, and it certainly was an awfully familiar feeling...

It's almost like once the ownership issue got settled (unfortunately, in the form of Bill Bidwell's death and his son Michael taking over; death is never good), the Cardinals getting a proper home of their own, and actually putting a winning team on the field on a semi-regular basis, those issues have become much, much rarer. Do they still happen because it's Phoenix? I'd be a liar if I said they don't. Can the same situation happen with the Coyotes? Possibly.

 

[KevFu]

It's also a lot easier to get to an NFL stadium ANYWHERE in the market for ONE SUNDAY GAME, 8 times a year than to go to Glendale or Foxboro or Orchard Park 41 to 81 times a year, including weeknights in the NBA/NHL/MLB seasons.

 

[JimAnchower]

It's also a lot easier to get to an NFL stadium ANYWHERE in the market for ONE SUNDAY GAME, 8 times a year than to go to Glendale or Foxboro or Orchard Park 41 to 81 times a year, including weeknights in the NBA/NHL/MLB seasons.

Green Bay is the perfect example of this. Most season ticket holders live 2+ hours away and come from all over the upper Midwest.

 

[aqib]

(Preface: this is an agreement post, and it's probably more appropriate to quote who you quoted, but I digress.)

The Cardinals were embarrassing because when they originally moved to Arizona, they had to play in a venue not designed for NFL football, had a shitty owner who didn't spend money on the team, had shitty attendance, were looking to build a permanent home for themselves but were having a hell of a time trying to get it done and it was a drawn-out saga for years and years until it finally happened. Meanwhile, the team sucked year after year, in part because of an owner who didn't spend on the team, and also because of incompetent team management. Wait a minute... that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Mind you, I had the (dis)pleasure of being a Cardinals season ticket holder during that era, and it was quite a lot of fun (hah) to bake in the metal bleachers of a half-empty Sun Devil Stadium with half away fans. I've also been a season ticket holder to the Coyotes, and it certainly was an awfully familiar feeling...

It's almost like once the ownership issue got settled (unfortunately, in the form of Bill Bidwell's death and his son Michael taking over; death is never good), the Cardinals getting a proper home of their own, and actually putting a winning team on the field on a semi-regular basis, those issues have become much, much rarer. Do they still happen because it's Phoenix? I'd be a liar if I said they don't. Can the same situation happen with the Coyotes? Possibly.

I remember when the Cardinals moved after the 87 season it was Tempe was going to be short term until a new stadium was built. Then stuff happened and it took 18 years. So out of curiously does anyone remember what the agreement was at the time? Was it just a vague promise or was there something more in place?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

You're not allowed to post any more until you start using punctuation.

His posts are nothing compared to Hutch's at least. Oh shit does speaking/typing his name summon him?

 

[KevFu]

Green Bay is the perfect example of this. Most season ticket holders live 2+ hours away and come from all over the upper Midwest.

I've heard that the New Orleans Saints have season ticket holders from four or five states, and the Denver Broncos have STH from seven.