CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[OG6ix]

Ok first of all the coyotes losses are in the billions that is the overall total since 1996 second there attendance is joke they can barley fill there arena & when they do get a big crowds for there games most the fans in attendance are from the other team that is sad when the other teams fans out draw your fans at your own arena & third The MLS has far better chance of success in Arizona than the NHL. given the areas large Latino population .

My advice just pack up the team & move them to Houston .

Lol their attendance was not bad when they were good and actually in Phoenix. Most sports teams have this issue it they are bad for a prolonged period of time. Even Boston had attendance issues when they were bad and the Sabres have terrible attendance and are considered a hockey town. Ottawa too.

 

[MNNumbers]

You are correct...from HB2772...5-1201. Definitions...

"18. "SPORTS FACILITY" MEANS A FACILITY THAT IS OWNED BY A
COMMERCIAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT OR QUASI-GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY THAT
HOSTS PROFESSIONAL SPORTS EVENTS AND THAT HOLDS A SEATING CAPACITY OF MORE
THAN TEN THOUSAND PERSONS AT ITS PRIMARY FACILITY, ONE LOCATION IN THIS
STATE THAT HOSTS AN ANNUAL PGA GOLF TOURNAMENT ON THE PGA TOUR OR ONE
LOCATION THAT HOLDS AN OUTDOOR MOTORSPORTS FACILITY THAT HOSTS A NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION FOR STOCK CAR AUTO RACING NATIONAL TOUR RACE."

However, I am not sure exactly how this applies, because in the section on applicants, it reads like this:
1. AN OWNER OF AN ARIZONA PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM OR FRANCHISE, OPERATOR OF A SPORTS FACILITY THAT HOSTS AN ANNUAL TOURNAMENT ON THE PGA TOUR, PROMOTER OF A NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR STOCK CAR AUTO RACING NATIONAL TOURING RACE CONDUCTED IN THIS STATE OR THE OWNER'S, OPERATOR'S OR PROMOTER'S DESIGNEE, CONTRACTED TO OPERATE EVENT WAGERING FOR BOTH RETAIL EVENT WAGERING AT A SPORTS FACILITY OR ITS COMPLEX AS PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION D OF THIS SECTION AND MOBILE EVENT WAGERING THROUGHOUT THE STATE. IF A DESIGNEE IS USED, THE DESIGNEE SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE APPLICANT AND BE SUBJECT TO ANY REQUIREMENTS OF THE APPLICATION PROCESS RATHER THAN THE OWNER, OPERATOR OR PROMOTER.

That seems to indicate that any professional sports team owner is eligible, because the word "or" used between clauses.

So, I don't know.

 

[Llama19]

However, I am not sure exactly how this applies, because in the section on applicants, it reads like this:
1. AN OWNER OF AN ARIZONA PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM OR FRANCHISE, OPERATOR OF A SPORTS FACILITY THAT HOSTS AN ANNUAL TOURNAMENT ON THE PGA TOUR, PROMOTER OF A NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR STOCK CAR AUTO RACING NATIONAL TOURING RACE CONDUCTED IN THIS STATE OR THE OWNER'S, OPERATOR'S OR PROMOTER'S DESIGNEE, CONTRACTED TO OPERATE EVENT WAGERING FOR BOTH RETAIL EVENT WAGERING AT A SPORTS FACILITY OR ITS COMPLEX AS PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION D OF THIS SECTION AND MOBILE EVENT WAGERING THROUGHOUT THE STATE. IF A DESIGNEE IS USED, THE DESIGNEE SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE APPLICANT AND BE SUBJECT TO ANY REQUIREMENTS OF THE APPLICATION PROCESS RATHER THAN THE OWNER, OPERATOR OR PROMOTER.

That seems to indicate that any professional sports team owner is eligible, because the word "or" used between clauses.

So, I don't know.

So...the question then becomes...since the ASU arena does not meet the other requirement...will the app be blocked from being used if you are inside the arena...but if you step outside...you are still within the state...and the app will work...definitely seeing lawyers getting involved over that one...

 

[TheLegend]

However, I am not sure exactly how this applies, because in the section on applicants, it reads like this:
1. AN OWNER OF AN ARIZONA PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM OR FRANCHISE, OPERATOR OF A SPORTS FACILITY THAT HOSTS AN ANNUAL TOURNAMENT ON THE PGA TOUR, PROMOTER OF A NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR STOCK CAR AUTO RACING NATIONAL TOURING RACE CONDUCTED IN THIS STATE OR THE OWNER'S, OPERATOR'S OR PROMOTER'S DESIGNEE, CONTRACTED TO OPERATE EVENT WAGERING FOR BOTH RETAIL EVENT WAGERING AT A SPORTS FACILITY OR ITS COMPLEX AS PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION D OF THIS SECTION AND MOBILE EVENT WAGERING THROUGHOUT THE STATE. IF A DESIGNEE IS USED, THE DESIGNEE SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE APPLICANT AND BE SUBJECT TO ANY REQUIREMENTS OF THE APPLICATION PROCESS RATHER THAN THE OWNER, OPERATOR OR PROMOTER.

That seems to indicate that any professional sports team owner is eligible, because the word "or" used between clauses.

So, I don't know.

As it’s worded Meruelo is still eligible.

Phoenix International Raceway is a facility owner (NASCAR) that meets the requirement, but has no franchise, yet they have one of the licenses.

I would surmise he won’t be promoting or have a storefront book until he gets his Tempe project rolling.

Llama does bring up a good question on geo-blocking his app. However, with a campus population of 50,000 students the odds that some ASU students have already used a sports book app from campus is pretty good.

 

[GordonGraham]

We're talking about 3 and maybe 4 years. So you can stop acting like it's a permanent thing.

Should have seen the Cow Palace where the Sharks played for 2-3 years. And the California Golden Seals before that.

I know what it's like there because I was in there in the 60's when it held everything from automotive conventions to roller derby.

Cow palace was way over 10000 seats and back then no salary cap/revenue sharing so it didnt matter if a team didnt bring in any money

 

[gstommylee]

Yotes at one point years ago was 1 no vote way from moving to seattle to play in the old Key arena building and that has obstructions with the scoreboard off center.

 

[Legion34]

Friedman reported the players are pissed and want to block it. But not sure if they can

 

[awfulwaffle]

But KeyArena could fit 17K no problem after the 95 reno. No one would have any problems with this whole thing if the "new" building was not smaller than some CHL rinks...

It's a temporary place assuming the tempe deal gets approved.....

 

[OG6ix]

But KeyArena could fit 17K no problem after the 95 reno. No one would have any problems with this whole thing if the "new" building was not smaller than some CHL rinks...

Not true key arena was not built with a hockey bowl in mind so it would have been a lot closer to the Barclays center. Doesn't matter as it's probably would have been better than 5k seating which according to some reports is including suites in that so the actual amount of seats isn't 5k with additional suites.

 

[WildGopher]

Long time local lurker who hasn't posted here in years. The flow chart here does not consist of a single go/no-go decision. The sequence begins when the consultant gives its report to Tempe Council. The Council then holds a hearing and decides whether to award a contract, thus enabling the start of negotiations over tax incentives, who pays for what, etc. The final agreement must come back to Council for a new vote--presumably but not necessarily to approve. At a minimum, the negotiating and drafting phase takes a few months (the timeline from Glendale 2001). But for Tempe's recent approval of the South Pier project, well over a year elapsed between the Council's "award" of the redevelopment proposal and its approval of a final agreement. The earliest timeline for final approval of a deal here is probably April 2022, and could be much later.

In the meantime (and here's the rub), several potential problems await. 1. The Goldwater Institute/gift clause people, familiar from the Glendale days. 2. The City of Phoenix airport and aviation community. A January 18 op-ed in the Arizona Republic (not mentioned in this thread) shows that this opposition is real. 3. General public opposition from within Tempe. This obviously influences Council votes, but can also manifest itself in a drive for a referendum vote if enough signatures are gathered. This happened in Scottsdale in 1999, when petitions forced a referendum on Ellman's proposal to redevelop Los Arcos mall. All these factors could mean lawsuits, PR campaigns, elections, and generally prolong the uncertainty.

There is no sign of a public meeting of the board that operates the old Veterans Coliseum. They are a public body that must give notice of all board meetings, and there is obvious urgency if the Coyotes are to play there next year. Especially since the Arizona State Fair occurs in October, which presents scheduling issues. But that board's public notice page shows they have not met since August 24, 2021. Arizona State Fair Statutory Notices | azstatefair.com

Appreciate the post - adding to the knowledgeable local posters here helps us who are just watching from the outside get some inside understanding.

 

[gstommylee]

Friedman reported the players are pissed and want to block it. But not sure if they can

I don't think the players union has a say on where a team can play or not play at arena wise.

 

[Ernie]

Friedman reported the players are pissed and want to block it. But not sure if they can

Where?

 

[WildGopher]

For the people insinuating it's an acceptable temporary Venue: this is the 5000 seat ASU Arena in question.

The idea it could realistically host and NHL team for years is ABSURD.

It makes my closest small-town Junior hockey arena look like the Madison Square Garden, with almost TWICE the capacity.

Coyotes playing here would help ASU hockey with recruiting. But would NHL players want to play here? Doubtful.

 

[WildGopher]

We're talking about 3 and maybe 4 years. So you can stop acting like it's a permanent thing.

Should have seen the Cow Palace where the Sharks played for 2-3 years. And the California Golden Seals before that.

I know what it's like there because I was in there in the 60's when it held everything from automotive conventions to roller derby.

Just curious, because I'm interested in hockey history: Did the Seals ever play in the Cow Palace? I thought all their games were in the Oakland Arena. I know the Sharks started in SF before their rink was built.

 

[Ciao]

One of the worst franchises in the league since the 90s
One of the worst attendance averages in the league for a long time running.
A temporary home with below NHL standard attendance.

Then got a new arena in a much better place.

The Islanders are 5th in attendance this season; The Coyotes will be fine.

I live in the Coyotes market. It took me an hour and 6 minutes to get to Glendale for the NYI at ARZ game this season. Last Islanders visit, I had to take the day off of work. Downtown Hamilton is closer to downtown Toronto than the East Valley is to Glendale.

I wonder if you've been to the GTA lately? This evening It took me an hour and six minutes to get from Yonge and College to Yonge and York Mills.

There's no way anyone was getting from anywhere East of the 427 to Hamilton within an hour today.

 

[OG6ix]

Just curious, because I'm interested in hockey history: Did the Seals ever play in the Cow Palace? I thought all their games were in the Oakland Arena. I know the Sharks started in SF before their rink was built.

The OP was incorrect - the seals played in Oakland Coliseum Arena which was where the NBA warriors played (later known as Oracle arena) up until chase arena was built a couple of years ago in San Fran.

 

[TheLegend]

Just curious, because I'm interested in hockey history: Did the Seals ever play in the Cow Palace? I thought all their games were in the Oakland Arena. I know the Sharks started in SF before their rink was built.

You’re correct. They played at Oakland Alameda.

I had thought they played the Cow Palace briefly.

 

[Ciao]

I don't think the NHL will have any problem allowing the Coyotes to play wherever the Hell they like until they get a new arena.

@Yukon Joe --- 2009? They're now 12 years into this, and the only reason the Coyotes are still in Arizona is that the NHL wants them to be in Arizona.

That might change if they get a better offer, but better offers don't seem to be growing on trees.

As for QC, it's better than landing their airplane in the Hudson River but it's not really what they're looking for. My guess is that the NHL prefers ASU over QC until they've exhausted all other avenues in AZ.

And it sounds like there's a very long way to go before all avenues are exhausted. If the Coyotes move into ASU -- as I think they might -- they could very well be there for a long while.

 

[TheLegend]

I don't think the NHL will have any problem allowing the Coyotes to play wherever the Hell they like until they get a new arena.

@Yukon Joe --- 2009? They're now 12 years into this, and the only reason the Coyotes are still in Arizona is that the NHL wants them to be in Arizona.

That might change if they get a better offer, but better offers don't seem to be growing on trees.

As for QC, it's better than landing their airplane in the Hudson River but it's not really what they're looking for. My guess is that the NHL prefers ASU over QC until they exhausted other avenues in AZ.

And it sounds like there's a very long way to go before all avenues are exhausted. If the Coyotes move into ASU -- as I think they might -- they could very well be there for a long while.

The reported deal is 3 years with an option for a fourth.

Given it takes ~24 months to build the arena in phase 1, (GRA took 18-20 months but did not require land remediation) there’s some flexibility built in here to include any additional time it takes Tempe to consider the proposal and/or any other roadblocks which might crop up.

BTW there’s an unconfirmed rumor the Coyotes might be in the process of setting up new offices in Tempe near where they want to be.

 

[Ciao]

The reported deal is 3 years with an option for a fourth.

Given it takes ~24 months to build the arena in phase 1, (GRA took 18-20 months but did not require land remediation) there’s some flexibility built in here to include any additional time it takes Tempe to consider the proposal and/or any other roadblocks which might crop up.

Its really hard to estimate the time line when a deal hasn't yet been reached.

Once they shake hands, they can start counting milestones. Until then, who knows if and when what can happen?

 

[Legion34]

Where?

32 thoughts podcast

 

[Legion34]

I wonder if you've been to the GTA lately? This evening It took me an hour and six minutes to get from Yonge and College to Yonge and York Mills.

There's no way anyone was getting from anywhere East of the 427 to Hamilton within an hour today.

Sure. But there are millions of people west of Toronto.

brampton/miss is like 1.3 million. Halton is 550k
Hamilton is 50ok. Niagara region is like 500k

Guelph/kw/London is over a million.
I don’t. Think Hamilton would be the spot. Downtown is a nightmare and that stadium isn’t the best.

if they were to do it outside of the 50 k radius.
I think it would be like Waterloo area. Hamilton halton and k w. Is like 2-3 million in drivable distance

 

[OG6ix]

Sure. But there are millions of people west of Toronto.

brampton/miss is like 1.3 million. Halton is 550k
Hamilton is 50ok. Niagara region is like 500k

Guelph/kw/London is over a million.
I don’t. Think Hamilton would be the spot. Downtown is a nightmare and that stadium isn’t the best.

if they were to do it outside of the 50 k radius.
I think it would be like Waterloo area. Hamilton halton and k w. Is like 2-3 million in drivable distance

The population is here on the west end but it doesn't mean everyone is a hockey fan. I live in Mississauga and see more Raptors gear than leafs/NHL. Brampton doesn't support minor League hockey either. I don't think the region is as hockey "crazed" as outsiders make it out to be. Most fans are already leafs fans.
A KW team is an absolute joke of a notion that I remember hearing on the Bob McCowan show back in the day with Jim B from rim trying to put a team. It's not a a real city even if there is surrounding population. People complain about Kanata where the sens play.

 

[JimAnchower]

Friedman reported the players are pissed and want to block it. But not sure if they can

Do you know what their objections are? Is it whether there will be locker rooms and workout facilities that they expect? Or is it due to the likely large drop in gate revenues that a 5,000 seat arena would bring in compared to a 17,000 seat arena? The first they can just make sure they have a say while the second probably requires negotiation.

 

[JimAnchower]

You’re correct. They played at Oakland Alameda.

I had thought they played the Cow Palace briefly.

They were originally going to play at the Cow Palace while a new arena in San Francisco was built, but it never really gained traction so they moved to Oakland before the franchise started.