CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[TheLegend]

For the people insinuating it's an acceptable temporary Venue: this is the 5000 seat ASU Arena in question.

The idea it could realistically host and NHL team for years is ABSURD.

It makes my closest small-town Junior hockey arena look like the Madison Square Garden, with almost TWICE the capacity.

We're talking about 3 and maybe 4 years. So you can stop acting like it's a permanent thing.

Should have seen the Cow Palace where the Sharks played for 2-3 years. And the California Golden Seals before that.

I know what it's like there because I was in there in the 60's when it held everything from automotive conventions to roller derby.

 

[MNNumbers]

My point has always been Glendale would have done this no matter who owned the Coyotes. And I don't blame them for it, because it was inevitable. Even Greg Jamison was looking for sites in Scottsdale when he was bidding to buy the Coyotes. His lease would have been just as costly (from $11-21 million per year in subsidies) to Glendale as IA's was and would be expiring within the next year or so. He had a clause that would have allowed him to buy GRA during the final five years but that was window dressing.

Like I said.... I don't blame Glendale for what they're doing. But I won't allow it to be ignored either. Their track record over the years of throwing a fit whenever there was serious talk about the team going somewhere else in Phoenix metro supports it.

I agree, but I will also defend Glendale for the following reason:
The original lease with the Coyotes for GRA had the following provisions:
1- It was to be a 30 year lease
2- It was to cost them nothing. Team had management rights to the arena, and there was no AMF or city obligation.

In other words, Glendale built them an arena, and it was up to the team to make it work.

That was the original deal. One cannot blame Glendale for being upset in any way when the BK voided the lease.

 

[TheLegend]

According to you they aren’t backing down from that = speculation.

Use your head..... why would Glendale want to facilitate the Coyotes getting another arena across town that they would have to compete with???

Why would Meruelo want to sign for 12 years plus when he can't make enough revenue being a tenant at GRA.

 

[TheLegend]

I agree, but I will also defend Glendale for the following reason:
The original lease with the Coyotes for GRA had the following provisions:
1- It was to be a 30 year lease
2- It was to cost them nothing. Team had management rights to the arena, and there was no AMF or city obligation.

In other words, Glendale built them an arena, and it was up to the team to make it work.

That was the original deal. One cannot blame Glendale for being upset in any way when the BK voided the lease.

Absolutely.

But the moment Ellman and Moyes split and the Coyotes were separated from Westgate that dynamic was destroyed. Glendale was 6 years into 30 years worth of bond payments and the Coyotes at that time were literally the only thing happening at GRA. So they were not in a position like they are now.

 

[edog37]

Can we please put this dog to sleep?

Bettman should tell the owners to move the franchise or sell it.

Neither Bettman nor the league has the power to do as you suggest.

 

[Headshot77]

We're talking about 3 and maybe 4 years. So you can stop acting like it's a permanent thing.

Should have seen the Cow Palace where the Sharks played for 2-3 years. And the California Golden Seals before that.

I know what it's like there because I was in there in the 60's when it held everything from automotive conventions to roller derby.

"If you compare this situation to two of the worst arena situations in modern NHL history, it doesn't seem all that bad!"

 

[sh724]

Oh HF Boards....positive news comes out about the Yotes and people coming out of the woodwork to add negativity to the discussion...

Statement from ASU.....

Based on that i would say there is a lot of truth to the rumors. There are obvious benefits to ASU for this to happen. If there was nothing to this ASU would have denied it instead of talking it up.

The keyword is "IF" though, right? The deal hasn't gone through. They could say no and then that's it. Game over. Everything hinges on this deal. lol.

The game has grown obviously but it's still not enough. The Coyotes will never make a profit even if this arena is built. They will continue to have to rely on the NHL.

The majority of NHL teams do not make profits . Losing money does not make the Yotes unique in anyway.

Can we please put this dog to sleep?

Bettman should tell the owners to move the franchise or sell it.

Bettman doesnt have the ability to do make either of those things happen. Can we please put the dog to sleep on Bettman being some hockey dictator that makes every decision 100% on his own and answers to know one?

If you are going to comment on what Bettman should or shouldnt do you should first figure out what Bettman's job actually is.

So, if the Coyotes do play at ASU's arena, I'm guessing they will be considered the tenant and ASU hockey has dibs on booking game nights (I think they only play their home games Friday-Sunday). Would that be a fair assumption?

That would depend on the agreement in place. Realistically the Yotes should be able to fill the building on weeknights so not having as many weekend games shouldnt be as big of a deal. The NHL season is also longer than the college season

It's not just the number of seats either. The NHL has a lot of stringent things they want in an arena that is hosting their teams. Lighting, boards, glass, camera angles / positions, media facilities, dressing room facilities for home and visitors, etc. The list is extensive.

So could the NHL get away with sub-standard facilities ( by NHL standards ) for 3 or 4 years? And have that pass mustard from the NHLPA?

And as for the fans... I will be really curious to see what season ticket prices will be like. You could end up where people have been paying $X are now being asked to pay 2 or 3 times $X. The team knows they will lose money, but I can't imagine they would keep prices the same .

As previously noted by articles, posters, and ASU the Yotes would have to spend several million dollars on upgrades to the arena to make it acceptable for the NHL and comply with NCAA rules. Yes the list is extensive and from the statement by ASU those items are already being discussed.

The Yotes are currently averaging over 11M seats sold per game. The Yotes believe they would be able to sell more seats in Tempe than at GRA. The Yotes can raise their average ticket price and sell 5M seats at ASU. AM is well aware he is going to lose money. He also has a much better idea of how much money than anyone posting on here. If he didnt think it was feasible he wouldnt be perusing it.

My thoughts all along were it was a negotiation tactic, until Glendale revealed that the Coyotes haven't been paying their taxes and other payments, and threaten to kick them out if they don't pay up. You don't publicly reveal embarrassing information like that with someone you might want to work with again.

There is obviously much more to that story than what was made public by Glendale. We will never be privy to what actually happened. Since the money was paid right away it would imply that AM had the money but for whatever reason was withholding payment.

 

[OG6ix]

So what happens if Tempe votes no to the new arena? This is all done?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Absolutely.

But the moment Ellman and Moyes split and the Coyotes were separated from Westgate that dynamic was destroyed. Glendale was 6 years into 30 years worth of bond payments and the Coyotes at that time were literally the only thing happening at GRA. So they were not in a position like they are now.

So I said I've been following the Yotes ownership / arena struggles for years, but I have to admit I wasn't following them back when Moyes took over the franchise. Why on earth did he ever take ownership of the team in the first place? He had to have known that without Westgate the Coyotes were never going to survive financially (and it's not like there were surviving very well beforehand). I thought maybe it was part of the 2008 great recession, but no he took the team over in 2006.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So what happens if Tempe votes no to the new arena? This is all done?

You should know this story will never be "done".

First of all votes can always change. The arena proposal is thought to not have enough votes right now, but they're hoping some new report will change some councillors minds.

Otherwise the Coyotes are back to square one. Do they go back to talk to the Indian bands? Go talk to the Suns? Who knows...

 

[Yukon Joe]

When was this bankruptcy, please?

2009

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Use your head..... why would Glendale want to facilitate the Coyotes getting another arena across town that they would have to compete with???

Why would Meruelo want to sign for 12 years plus when he can't make enough revenue being a tenant at GRA.

Use your comprehension, I didn't say it was poor speculation.

 

[TheLegend]

So I said I've been following the Yotes ownership / arena struggles for years, but I have to admit I wasn't following them back when Moyes took over the franchise. Why on earth did he ever take ownership of the team in the first place? He had to have known that without Westgate the Coyotes were never going to survive financially (and it's not like there were surviving very well beforehand). I thought maybe it was part of the 2008 great recession, but no he took the team over in 2006.

2006 the recession was beginning to hit. Ellman was beginning to lose clients for Westgate. Virtually all the major tenants backed out. He was counting on that to support the Coyotes plus getting Westgate built out.

But getting to Moyes..... for starters he had an office building at Westgate as part of his deal with Ellman. Moved the Coyotes offices out of the arena into his building and charged the franchise twice the going rates for rental space.

Then it came out in the bankruptcy that he took out an $80 million loan from a financing company owned by Michael Dell and used the Coyotes as collateral. The money was used to prop up his trucking and transportation company (Swift Air). Which is absolutely against NHL rules, but he did it anyway. Wayne Gretzky was actually working for Moyes under a personal services contract. Right before he put the frachine into BK he transferred ownership of that contract to the Coyotes.

Jerry Moyes makes Alex Meruelo look like a saint.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

So I said I've been following the Yotes ownership / arena struggles for years, but I have to admit I wasn't following them back when Moyes took over the franchise. Why on earth did he ever take ownership of the team in the first place? He had to have known that without Westgate the Coyotes were never going to survive financially (and it's not like there were surviving very well beforehand). I thought maybe it was part of the 2008 great recession, but no he took the team over in 2006.

I know Jerry Moyes, he's Glendale proud. Felt like this helped put Glendale on the map. He invested in other franchises and experienced some success, so he went in with Elman on the Yotes. When Elman pulled out, he decided to take it all on, with the assumption of it gaining in value and selling. The economy went to hell, he had losses in other endeavors and attempted to bale on the Coyotes via bk and Balls silly.

 

[Pandemonia]

I know Jerry Moyes, he's Glendale proud. Felt like this helped put Glendale on the map. He invested in other franchises and experienced some success, so he went in with Elman on the Yotes. When Elman pulled out, he decided to take it all on, with the assumption of it gaining in value and selling. The economy went to hell, he had losses in other endeavors and attempted to bale on the Coyotes via bk and Balls silly.

Just out of curiosity, what are Elman and Moyes doing these days in the business world?

 

[JMROWE]

Ok first of all the coyotes losses are in the billions that is the overall total since 1996 second there attendance is joke they can barley fill there arena & when they do get a big crowds for there games most the fans in attendance are from the other team that is sad when the other teams fans out draw your fans at your own arena & third The MLS has far better chance of success in Arizona than the NHL. given the areas large Latino population .

My advice just pack up the team & move them to Houston .

 

[mouser]

2006 the recession was beginning to hit. Ellman was beginning to lose clients for Westgate. Virtually all the major tenants backed out. He was counting on that to support the Coyotes plus getting Westgate built out.

But getting to Moyes..... for starters he had an office building at Westgate as part of his deal with Ellman. Moved the Coyotes offices out of the arena into his building and charged the franchise twice the going rates for rental space.

Then it came out in the bankruptcy that he took out an $80 million loan from a financing company owned by Michael Dell and used the Coyotes as collateral. The money was used to prop up his trucking and transportation company (Swift Air). Which is absolutely against NHL rules, but he did it anyway. Wayne Gretzky was actually working for Moyes under a personal services contract. Right before he put the frachine into BK he transferred ownership of that contract to the Coyotes.

Jerry Moyes makes Alex Meruelo look like a saint.

You left out the fun part where Moyes raided the family trust fund to prop up/buy Swift inc and was sued by his kids.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Just out of curiosity, what are Elman and Moyes doing these days in the business world?

Haven't spoke with Jerry in years, but he's still part owner of Knight - Swift Transportation. He used to have a lot of irons in the fire, but I believe he has few these days. No idea on Elman.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You left out the fun part where Moyes raided the family trust fund to prop up/buy Swift inc and was sued by his kids.

Yeah, he wanted to save his baby, no matter the cost. Made several bad decisions. A business colleague sold him his very first truck, basically how I know him.

 

[TheLegend]

You left out the fun part where Moyes raided the family trust fund to prop up/buy Swift inc and was sued by his kids.

Didn’t want to complicate things.

 

[sh724]

Ok first of all the coyotes losses are in the billions that is the overall total since 1996 second there attendance is joke they can barley fill there arena & when they do get a big crowds for there games most the fans in attendance are from the other team that is sad when the other teams fans out draw your fans at your own arena & third The MLS has far better chance of success in Arizona than the NHL. given the areas large Latino population .

My advice just pack up the team & move them to Houston .

Thanks for the hot take with no evidence to back it up.

The attendance issues have long been documented and are heavily influenced by the state of the team. A team in just about any other market with the track record of the Yotes, both on and off the ice, isnt going to draw well either. Most teams have struggled with attendance at various points throughout their history.

Its not uncommon for games in "hockey markets" to have large contingencies of away fans

If billionaires are okay with losing "billions" why do you care?

Why do you think Houston would be such a better market? As of now there isnt anyone in Houston willing to pay the market rate for an NHL team.

 

[TheLegend]

Haven't spoke with Jerry in years, but he's still part owner of Knight - Swift Transportation. He used to have a lot of irons in the fire, but I believe he has few these days. No idea on Elman.

Looks as if he sold Swift Air in 2019. It was just sold again a couple of months ago.

Knight Transportation just canned about half its drivers.

Last anyone heard of Ellman he got into the electronic billboard business with Panasonic and was putting billboards up in Times Square NYC. Still does real estate developing.

 

[MNNumbers]

It is being said on the main board that the state law about sports books companies is that they have to own a professional sports team with a home arena that seats 10K fans.

This might be problematic for Meruelo?

I'm putting it here for the sake of conversation, and because someone here might have the details.

 

[garbageteam]

Someone tell me that if the Senators, Jets or Sabres weren't suddenly forced to play in some double A level 5,000 capacity rink for years because they were kicked out of their home arena there would not suddenly be serious and immediate calls for relocation within the BoG. And that's without the multiyear baggage this franchise has endured.

This is a huge black eye for the league and if this happened to one of the more popular leagues in the Big 4 it would be one of the biggest laughing stocks in NA sports.

 

[Llama19]

It is being said on the main board that the state law about sports books companies is that they have to own a professional sports team with a home arena that seats 10K fans.

This might be problematic for Meruelo?

I'm putting it here for the sake of conversation, and because someone here might have the details.

You are correct...from HB2772...5-1201. Definitions...

"18. "SPORTS FACILITY" MEANS A FACILITY THAT IS OWNED BY A
COMMERCIAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT OR QUASI-GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY THAT
HOSTS PROFESSIONAL SPORTS EVENTS AND THAT HOLDS A SEATING CAPACITY OF MORE
THAN TEN THOUSAND PERSONS AT ITS PRIMARY FACILITY, ONE LOCATION IN THIS
STATE THAT HOSTS AN ANNUAL PGA GOLF TOURNAMENT ON THE PGA TOUR OR ONE
LOCATION THAT HOLDS AN OUTDOOR MOTORSPORTS FACILITY THAT HOSTS A NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION FOR STOCK CAR AUTO RACING NATIONAL TOUR RACE."