CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[Ciao]

Sure. But there are millions of people west of Toronto.

brampton/miss is like 1.3 million. Halton is 550k
Hamilton is 50ok. Niagara region is like 500k

Guelph/kw/London is over a million.
I don’t. Think Hamilton would be the spot. Downtown is a nightmare and that stadium isn’t the best.

if they were to do it outside of the 50 k radius.
I think it would be like Waterloo area. Hamilton halton and k w. Is like 2-3 million in drivable distance

You're quite right.

How the heck did we manage to turn this Coyotes' thread into a GTA conversation? Purely unintentional!

 

[Legion34]

You're quite right.

How the heck did we manage to turn this Coyotes' thread into a GTA conversation? Purely unintentional!

yep I agree. We should focus on the coyotes.

I just don’t see how they can realistically expect players to want to play and practice in a 5k building.

Ohl players play in 10-15k buildings. It’s just nuts

 

[Pandemonia]

I don't think the NHL will have any problem allowing the Coyotes to play wherever the Hell they like until they get a new arena.

@Yukon Joe --- 2009? They're now 12 years into this, and the only reason the Coyotes are still in Arizona is that the NHL wants them to be in Arizona.

That might change if they get a better offer, but better offers don't seem to be growing on trees.

As for QC, it's better than landing their airplane in the Hudson River but it's not really what they're looking for. My guess is that the NHL prefers ASU over QC until they've exhausted all other avenues in AZ.

And it sounds like there's a very long way to go before all avenues are exhausted. If the Coyotes move into ASU -- as I think they might -- they could very well be there for a long while.

Easily the best line I've read here all month!

 

[Digital Kid]

Would playing in the ASU arena with 5,000 spectators and few if any luxury boxes deny the Coyotes qualifying for revenue sharing?

 

[Ciao]

You would need to sell 5,000 tickets at an average price of $292 per ticket for all 41 games to cover the cap floor of $60-million from ticket sales.

That would never happen, of course.

How much gate revenue would the Coyotes likely generate at ASU? Does it even matter?

Glendale says they will be better off without the Coyotes.

Are the Coyotes likely to be better off without Glendale -- at least until a permanent venue is found?

In the same vein, I think the Coyotes would need an average of $25 per ticket just to cover Jacob Chychrin's salary for the last three years of his contract -- which is $16.4-million. I do wonder how that would compare to the entire gate revenue for the 'Yotes? Is that one reason they are trying to move him?

 

[Ciao]

Would playing in the ASU arena with 5,000 spectators and few if any luxury boxes deny the Coyotes qualifying for revenue sharing?

I wouldn't know, but I would guess not.

I don't think the NHL will let anything come between the Coyotes and a permanent home in Arizona, if one can be found.

It strikes me, though, that their poor treatment of Glendale is coming back to bite them in the wallet fairly soon. It was an expensive course of action.

 

[OG6ix]

I wouldn't know, but I would guess not.

I don't think the NHL will let anything come between the Coyotes and a permanent home in Arizona, if one can be found.

It strikes me, though, that their poor treatment of Glendale is coming back to bite them in the wallet fairly soon. It was an expensive course of action.

While I'm all for the NHL trying to keep teams in markets - if I'm a Thrashers fan I'd be upset that the NHL barely tried to save the Thrashers once ASG sold them. I mean the suns kicked out the coyotes decades ago what's the difference in situations. You could argue that Atlanta supported the Thrashers better than Arizona did for the yotes and the Thrashers never had a good team while the coyotes at one point did.

 

[royals119]

Merek is mentioning to get the rink up to NHL standards the seating capacity could be closer to 3200. How could the league allow that? Even 5000 is crazy. But 3200! That's ECHL level, isn't it?

5000 is barely ECHL level. 3200 is more Federal league level. (although I doubt this works if the Coyotes are going to take away that many seats from the university's plans, unless the lease payments and other improvements somehow make up for the loss of all those seats for the school while they are there).

Even in most of the 5000-ish ECHL arenas, there are usually special circumstances that make it possible. Wheeling and Adirondack are community owned teams with really good leases (basically the chamber of commerce members own the team collectively and get the building almost free). In K-zoo the team owner also owns the building and he's been there forever, so it's paid off, and he has curling, public skating, concerts, etc to help pay the bills. I don't know how Idaho is set up. The two newest ECHL teams, Iowa and Trois Rivieres, are both owned by the same guy who owns Newfoundland. I'm not sure how he is making those work either - although averaging almost a sellout every game is a better atmosphere than averaging 5,000 in a 10,000+ seat arena, and a smaller building means lower rent, and less staff to pay.

ECHL arenas:
Orlando: 20,000
Tulsa: 19,199
Cincinnati: 17,556
Greenville: 15,951
Wichita: 17,570
Jacksonville: 15,000
Fort Wayne: 13,000
S.C. (Charleston): 13,295
Atlanta: 13,000
Utah (SLC): 12,600
Worcester: 12,135
Rapid City: 10,000
Norfolk: 10,253
Savannah (coming 2022): 9500
Florida (Estero): 8284
Allen: 8100
Toledo: 8000
Reading: 7083
Newfoundland: 7000
Indy: 6800
Maine (Portland): 6206
Kansas City: 5800
Wheeling: 5406
Iowa (Coralville): 5100
Kalamazoo: 5113
Idaho (Boise): 5000
Adirondack (Glens Falls): 4806
Trois Rivieres: 4390

 

[Riggins]

This would be comical even if shovels were in the ground on a new arena. The thought that they would do this without a plan in place is horrifying.

Bettman's stubbornness is a much bigger stain on his legacy than it would be if he just admitted the mistake and relocated the team.

 

[Ciao]

While I'm all for the NHL trying to keep teams in markets - if I'm a Thrashers fan I'd be upset that the NHL barely tried to save the Thrashers once ASG sold them. I mean the suns kicked out the coyotes decades ago what's the difference in situations. You could argue that Atlanta supported the Thrashers better than Arizona did for the yotes and the Thrashers never had a good team while the coyotes at one point did.

Sure, but that's then and this is now. You can't turn back the clock.

Even now, the NHL is pretty deeply invested in Arizona.

And it might well be personal.

If so, that's their business, which they're entitled to conduct as they wish. If the NHL wants to spend X amount of money for any purpose they like, that's up to them. After all, it's their money.

 

[OG6ix]

This would be comical even if shovels were in the ground on a new arena. The thought that they would do this without a plan in place is horrifying.

Bettman's stubbornness is a much bigger stain on his legacy than it would be if he just admitted the mistake and relocated the team.

How is this Bettman's stubbornness? He works for the owners.

 

[TheLegend]

While I'm all for the NHL trying to keep teams in markets - if I'm a Thrashers fan I'd be upset that the NHL barely tried to save the Thrashers once ASG sold them. I mean the suns kicked out the coyotes decades ago what's the difference in situations. You could argue that Atlanta supported the Thrashers better than Arizona did for the yotes and the Thrashers never had a good team while the coyotes at one point did.

NHL had no choice with the Thrashers.

ASG wanted them out of their arena and there was no other path, or a new owner who could try pulling off what Meruelo is trying to do.

Understand that Glendale is kicking the Coyotes out now because Meruelo has a new arena proposal going.

The timing of their announcement the week the RFP was announced is just too coincidental to ignore.

 

[OG6ix]

NHL had no choice with the Thrashers.

ASG wanted them out of their arena and there was no other path, or a new owner who could try pulling off what Meruelo is trying to do.

Understand that Glendale is kicking the Coyotes out now because Meruelo has a new arena proposal going.

The timing of their announcement the week the RFP was announced is just too coincidental to ignore.

Agreed, but if they had maybe taken over the team for some time at least exploring options including renting from ASG for a little while. I mean if they are allowing 5000 seats as a temporary home.im sure they could have found something in ATL that worked. ASG is gone now. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[TheLegend]

Agreed, but if they had maybe taken over the team for some time at least exploring options including renting from ASG for a little while. I mean if they are allowing 5000 seats as a temporary home.im sure they could have found something in ATL that worked. ASG is gone now. Just thinking out loud here.

I understand.

Unfortunately ASG wasn’t going to give any new owner of the Thrashers a lease for any amount of money.

Had there been a new owner who wanted to do what Meruelo is attempting to do? Bettman (and the league) might have gone for that plan.

With Arizona he’s been very consistent in saying as long as there’s an owning willing to get something done here the league would support it as much as reasonably possible.

If this proposal for Tempe fails and Meruelo doesn’t have a plan B then I don’t think the Coyotes will remain here.

 

[Legion34]

NHL had no choice with the Thrashers.

ASG wanted them out of their arena and there was no other path, or a new owner who could try pulling off what Meruelo is trying to do.

Understand that Glendale is kicking the Coyotes out now because Meruelo has a new arena proposal going.

The timing of their announcement the week the RFP was announced is just too coincidental to ignore.

Could they kick them out if they actually paid they rent? Was the lease over?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Can we please stop with the Bettman works for the owners and only does what they say stupidity. No job where you have that type of working relationship is ever that simple. Yes at the end of the day the collective ownership groups make the decisions but that assumes that Bettman doesn't have enough influence within the group that if he wanted something to be done, or not done, he could or couldn't make it happen.

On the actual topic, I mean how much more toxic can the franchise get. Once again this team goes against what anyone would consider reasonable and is a slap to the face of the rest of the league. To play in a 5000 person arena? How much more money will they lose by having so few fans, probably no ,or a lot less, corporate boxes, needing to upgrade the facilities, and who knows what else. Yes the expenses would be lower in terms of the arena operations but still.

Once again on the surface, the economics make absolutely no sense and is going to force the team into more debt.

I would really wonder though if you did the calculations, and compared the amount they're going to lose by being in that small of an arena, and compared it to what they'd have to spend to upgrade the arena downtown, which would make more economic sense.

 

[TheLegend]

Could they kick them out if they actually paid they rent? Was the lease over?

The lease with Glendale was year to year and renewed automatically each Dec 31. But gave either side the option of opting out of the renewal.

 

[Legion34]

The lease with Glendale was year to year and renewed automatically each Dec 31. But gave either side the option of opting out of the renewal.

so even if they had actually paid. They still could have been kicked out. Hmmmm interesting

 

[TheLegend]

Can we please stop with the Bettman works for the owners and only does what they say stupidity. No job where you have that type of working relationship is ever that simple. Yes at the end of the day the collective ownership groups make the decisions but that assumes that Bettman doesn't have enough influence within the group that if he wanted something to be done, or not done, he could or couldn't make it happen.

On the actual topic, I mean how much more toxic can the franchise get. Once again this team goes against what anyone would consider reasonable and is a slap to the face of the rest of the league. To play in a 5000 person arena? How much more money will they lose by having so few fans, probably no ,or a lot less, corporate boxes, needing to upgrade the facilities, and who knows what else. Yes the expenses would be lower in terms of the arena operations but still.

Once again on the surface, the economics make absolutely no sense and is going to force the team into more debt.

I would really wonder though if you did the calculations, and compared the amount they're going to lose by being in that small of an arena, and compared it to what they'd have to spend to upgrade the arena downtown, which would make more economic sense.

Upgrading the downtown arena was going to take too long. They would have needed to start before Glendale even announced they were not renewing the lease.

I'll admit I didn't think it needed that much work other than an ice system. But it would have required the entire facility being brought up to current codes. Over the third of the seating has been decommissioned because of structural concerns. There's ADA compliance issues and so on.

Plus it's owned by the state of Arizona and it would all have to be negotiated.

 

[TheLegend]

so even if they had actually paid. They still could have been kicked out. Hmmmm interesting

Coyotes offered to sign a 3-year lease with the option for two more. City wanted 12 to 15 years or nothing, plus they wanted to Coyotes to invest more money into some of the upgrades they wanted to put into the arena.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

While I'm all for the NHL trying to keep teams in markets - if I'm a Thrashers fan I'd be upset that the NHL barely tried to save the Thrashers once ASG sold them. I mean the suns kicked out the coyotes decades ago what's the difference in situations. You could argue that Atlanta supported the Thrashers better than Arizona did for the yotes and the Thrashers never had a good team while the coyotes at one point did.

In Thrasher's situation, it wasn't like they had a plan to build a new arena once they got kicked out.

They could have played in Gwinnet but for how long?

 

[Ernie]

5000 is barely ECHL level. 3200 is more Federal league level. (although I doubt this works if the Coyotes are going to take away that many seats from the university's plans, unless the lease payments and other improvements somehow make up for the loss of all those seats for the school while they are there).

Even in most of the 5000-ish ECHL arenas, there are usually special circumstances that make it possible. Wheeling and Adirondack are community owned teams with really good leases (basically the chamber of commerce members own the team collectively and get the building almost free). In K-zoo the team owner also owns the building and he's been there forever, so it's paid off, and he has curling, public skating, concerts, etc to help pay the bills. I don't know how Idaho is set up. The two newest ECHL teams, Iowa and Trois Rivieres, are both owned by the same guy who owns Newfoundland. I'm not sure how he is making those work either - although averaging almost a sellout every game is a better atmosphere than averaging 5,000 in a 10,000+ seat arena, and a smaller building means lower rent, and less staff to pay.

ECHL arenas:
Orlando: 20,000
Tulsa: 19,199
Cincinnati: 17,556
Greenville: 15,951
Wichita: 17,570
Jacksonville: 15,000
Fort Wayne: 13,000
S.C. (Charleston): 13,295
Atlanta: 13,000
Utah (SLC): 12,600
Worcester: 12,135
Rapid City: 10,000
Norfolk: 10,253
Savannah (coming 2022): 9500
Florida (Estero): 8284
Allen: 8100
Toledo: 8000
Reading: 7083
Newfoundland: 7000
Indy: 6800
Maine (Portland): 6206
Kansas City: 5800
Wheeling: 5406
Iowa (Coralville): 5100
Kalamazoo: 5113
Idaho (Boise): 5000
Adirondack (Glens Falls): 4806
Trois Rivieres: 4390

This is a bit disengenuous.

For the last non-Covid season the best ECHL team drew 8000, the worst 2300. The typical team drew 4000-5000.

Clearly a 5000 seat arena is plenty big enough for an ECHL team.

 

[Digital Kid]

If we thought the Coyotes were bad this year, wait till next year when half their current roster leaves and no one (and I mean no one) wants to sign there to play in this arena. It will be an ECHL roster and a few NHL last chance journeymen.

 

[Mightygoose]

If we thought the Coyotes were bad this year, wait till next year when half their current roster leaves and no one (and I mean no one) wants to sign there to play in this arena. It will be an ECHL roster and a few NHL last chance journeymen.

Very true. Plus the arena is not expected to open until December so there's a long road trip to start next year.

If there are any unexpected delays then it's even longer.

It's a really sad state when this is thier 'best' option for a temp home

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Ratio wise, how similar is this to Chargers playing in MLS stadium?