Confirmed with Link: Curtis Glencross Traded to Washington for 2nd&3rd Round Picks

[Wayne Primeau]

Deryk Engelland is pressbox fodder on most teams except the Flames, who have no defensive depth or size whatsoever and are unwilling to play prospects. In fact that's why Engelland was picked up at such an absurd price anyways, a payment he himself was surprised by.

As for Diaz, he's been the better player of the two for a long time, carrying that pairing in pretty much every metric. But as a smaller player on an already small team, he had an upwards battle to climb to establish himself as a regular.

...Smid's been terrible, since he's been paired with Engelland instead of a puck-mover like Russell or Diaz. And looking back historically, Smid's been an okay bottom pairing defenseman while Engelland has played mostly goon-forward.

Nikitin would be an upgrade over either Smid or Engelland.

Just to point out -

Considering that the Flames' top 4 is in the top five, if not the top three, in the NHL, I find it unwise of you to claim that they have no defensive depth or size whatsoever.

Also, are you just calling the Flames small because of Gaudreau, Byron and Russell? One of those guys is a depth guy, and the other two are two of the Flames' best players. I can go on and on about this topic, but I'll just say this - those three, along with Jiri Hudler, are the only players on the entire team smaller than 5'11".

Unless you are looking back at Smid's history with the Flames where he's been shadowed by the aforementioned elite top 4, he has actually been a top 2/4 d-man for most of his career, that being with Edmonton.

Nikita Nikitin is in no ways an upgrade over Deryk Engelland, who has actually been playing some fine hockey lately. Smid's been hurt for most of the year and when he's been playing, he's been doing so with an injury, so there isn't much leverage to that part of your argument.

Just thoughts.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I'd move Glencross for Fayne.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Considering that the Flames' top 4 is in the top five, if not the top three, in the NHL, I find it unwise of you to claim that they have no defensive depth or size whatsoever.

I disagree. Their top pairing is in the top three in the NHL. Their second pairing is mediocre, at best, and their bottom pairing is a complete disaster 3/4 of the time (barely passable the rest).

 

[Wayne Primeau]

I disagree. Their top pairing is in the top three in the NHL. Their second pairing is mediocre, at best, and their bottom pairing is a complete disaster 3/4 of the time (barely passable the rest).

Russell and Wideman is not mediocre at best. That's, uh, not true.

 

[Taranis]

I think Russell and especially Wideman have proved quite a lot this year.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Russell and Wideman is not mediocre at best. That's, uh, not true.

They're both ideally complementary second pairing guys. Wideman gets beat all the time because he's not a great skater and his defensive positioning isn't the best; he's also a fairly average passer. Russell is better all-round, but he isn't quite good enough to carry the pairing.

They're great in the offensive zone, but as a pairing they run into issues in the other two with more frequency than a "top five in the league" second pairing should.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Considering that the Flames' top 4 is in the top five, if not the top three, in the NHL, I find it unwise of you to claim that they have no defensive depth or size whatsoever.

The top pairing is nothing short of incredible but every pairing below that is a steep falloff that's always hemmed in its own zone. Russell-Wideman is mediocre at best (sorry, I don't rate defenseman based only on their offense) with Russell essentially carrying Wideman. Wideman is an absolute mess at even strength against the competition he has to face. And yet he gets a ton of minutes because the Flames absolutely lack defensive depth. That is why Wideman is a #4 and Russell is a #3, when on a consistently good team Wideman is a #5/PP and Russell is a #4. And no, Engelland is not a player many other teams are dying to take on as a #6... he's a #7 in every sense of the term other than his actual deployment.

Also, are you just calling the Flames small because of Gaudreau, Byron and Russell?One of those guys is a depth guy, and the other two are two of the Flames' best players. I can go on and on about this topic, but I'll just say this - those three, along with Jiri Hudler, are the only players on the entire team smaller than 5'11".

...an they're small players. Beside whom you generally put large players in compensation. Why do you think we signed Engelland, if not his size?

Unless you are looking back at Smid's history with the Flames where he's been shadowed by the aforementioned elite top 4, he has actually been a top 2/4 d-man for most of his career, that being with Edmonton.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Smid was carried by Petry then on some pretty bad teams, and has no one carrying him now.

Nikita Nikitin is in no ways an upgrade over Deryk Engelland, who has actually been playing some fine hockey lately.

You mean Engelland looks less brutal now that Diaz is handling all the defensive puckhandling on that line? And even then pretty much never makes any semblance of a positive contribution other than a contrived "fight"?

Russell and Wideman is not mediocre at best. That's, uh, not true

How strong of an argument do they make over:

Jackman-Shattenkirk
Ekholm-Jones
Voynov-Martinez
Oduya-Hjalmarsson
Scuderi-Despres
Campbell-Ekblad
Gonchar-Beauleiu
Bieksa-Hamhuis
Staal-Boyle
Burns-Dhillon
Stuart-Trouba or Enstrom-Myers

While it's never as simple as "plug n play" when it comes to system fit, all of those pairings are generally going to be preferable over or about the same as Wideman-Russell. There's at least a couple others who make a strong case.

Remember, the #1 thing to judge a D-pairing on is their ability to

- Clear traffic in front of their goaltender
- Clear the puck out of their own zone and neutral zone without icing or turning it over so that the forwards can get offense initiated
- Push opposing forwards off the puck

Our top pairing is fantastic at this. Kris Russell is okay at this, but his lack of size really hurts as he can't outmuscle opponents. A good #3 to handle the brawn would elevate the Flames to a high quality 2nd pairing.

Wideman? He's practically useless until you get him to the offensive zone. This is a guy who I think as an all-star wasn't even given minutes during the playoffs for Washington.

Which puts Wideman-Russell at just above the middle point.

In other words, mediocre.

 

[Taranis]

If our second pairing was mediocre how are we in a playoff spot given our third pairing has been an issue?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

If our second pairing was mediocre how are we in a playoff spot given our third pairing has been an issue?

Maybe because we have the single best 1st pairing in the NHL? Look at the +/-


Brodie +23
Gio +14 (plays his fair share with Wideman too)
Russell +11
Wideman -2 (but does a lot of powerplay, which has nothing to do with what pairing he's on)
Diaz -4 (playing with Engelland)
Smd -12 (playing with Engelland)
Engelland -13 (Deryk Engelland)

And notice how we're in a pretty mediocre wildcard playoff spot half the time? While we're really glad to be where we are, let's not pretend we have one of the best top 4s in the league. We have the best top 2, plus a really good #4 playing #3.

 

[Taranis]

Well our top pairing is very good but the other 30m+ that there not on the ice would drag us down.

 

[Volica]

If our second pairing was mediocre how are we in a playoff spot given our third pairing has been an issue?

Our second pairing has been dynamite; I don't know what some of the posters have been watching all season.

Russell has been the most steady dman we've had this year; Wideman is have a career year... I mean. There's not much to dislike about our middle pairing.

It's easy to get lost in names; when you see guys with pedigree or long last NHL careers on the second pairings of other teams... Don't kid yourself; this has been one of the top, top 4s in the league this year.

 

[Taranis]

Honestly during the season opener I was like Russel has an "A" wha.... But hes been pretty steady this year and a good player for us.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Well our top pairing is very good but the other 30m+ that there not on the ice would drag us down.

They..do.

This team is basically a different team when the top pairing is on the ice. Though Russell-Brodie is a pretty decent pairing too.

Basically only Wideman is the weak link. He's a #5 defenseman + Power Play Specialist except on this team he's not.

If this team had an actual top 5 2nd pairing (plus wideman as a #5 instead of Diaz, and then a healthy Smid as the #6), they would probably be competing for the president's trophy along with Nashville.

 

[Wayne Primeau]

They..do.

This team is basically a different team when the top pairing is on the ice. Though Russell-Brodie is a pretty decent pairing too.

Basically only Wideman is the weak link. He's a #5 defenseman + Power Play Specialist except on this team he's not.

If this team had an actual top 5 2nd pairing (plus wideman as a #5 instead of Diaz, and then a healthy Smid as the #6), they would probably be competing for the president's trophy along with Nashville.

Because we actually do have an actual top 5 2nd pairing, then why aren’t we competing for the president’s trophy?

 

[Zirakzigil]

...Deryk Engelland is pressbox fodder...our worst penalty killer, our worst corsi guy, the only guy left on the team to score a goal, can't move the puck worth anything, and slow as hell defensively. He's lucky to be a #6 defensemen because this team has no depth. At Pittsburgh he was a forward and basically their McGrattan because he's a brutal Dman.

Wrong actually. The Pens liked him both on the team and playing defense, they were in no position to come even close to matching that amount in salary. With a decent skating puckmoving partner hes an effective bottom pairing defenseman.

 

[MuffinMerc]

Wideman is a disaster in his own zone. All of the second lines defensive responsibilities fall on Russell but he can't carry it by himself.

 

[Kanye]

I just want to give Wideman a big ol' hug. Poor guy getting slaughtered in here when he hasn't been bad at all.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

The top pairing is nothing short of incredible but every pairing below that is a steep falloff that's always hemmed in its own zone. Russell-Wideman is mediocre at best (sorry, I don't rate defenseman based only on their offense) with Russell essentially carrying Wideman. Wideman is an absolute mess at even strength against the competition he has to face. And yet he gets a ton of minutes because the Flames absolutely lack defensive depth. That is why Wideman is a #4 and Russell is a #3, when on a consistently good team Wideman is a #5/PP and Russell is a #4. And no, Engelland is not a player many other teams are dying to take on as a #6... he's a #7 in every sense of the term other than his actual deployment.



...an they're small players. Beside whom you generally put large players in compensation. Why do you think we signed Engelland, if not his size?



We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Smid was carried by Petry then on some pretty bad teams, and has no one carrying him now.



You mean Engelland looks less brutal now that Diaz is handling all the defensive puckhandling on that line? And even then pretty much never makes any semblance of a positive contribution other than a contrived "fight"?



How strong of an argument do they make over:

Jackman-Shattenkirk
Ekholm-Jones
Voynov-Martinez
Oduya-Hjalmarsson
Scuderi-Despres
Campbell-Ekblad
Gonchar-Beauleiu
Bieksa-Hamhuis
Staal-Boyle
Burns-Dhillon
Stuart-Trouba or Enstrom-Myers

While it's never as simple as "plug n play" when it comes to system fit, all of those pairings are generally going to be preferable over or about the same as Wideman-Russell. There's at least a couple others who make a strong case.

Remember, the #1 thing to judge a D-pairing on is their ability to

- Clear traffic in front of their goaltender
- Clear the puck out of their own zone and neutral zone without icing or turning it over so that the forwards can get offense initiated
- Push opposing forwards off the puck

Our top pairing is fantastic at this. Kris Russell is okay at this, but his lack of size really hurts as he can't outmuscle opponents. A good #3 to handle the brawn would elevate the Flames to a high quality 2nd pairing.

Wideman? He's practically useless until you get him to the offensive zone. This is a guy who I think as an all-star wasn't even given minutes during the playoffs for Washington.

Which puts Wideman-Russell at just above the middle point.

In other words, mediocre.

These are good and important points, but you're generalizing here quite a bit. While I don't disagree, every single player in the NHL is slightly to very different. Meaning each has their own distinct style and their own strengths and weaknesses. Hence team play. While some defenceman like Engelland may be above average at clearing the crease, he's not exactly the best puck mover, but he's still an NHL dman. So the goal is to take a collection of these players, get them to play team game and utilize them to their strengths. Some of your points about Wideman may be true, but how awesome is it that he has a guy like Russell to cover up some of his deficiencies? I think that's what most here are arguing is that as a collective group and considering team play, our top 4 group is about as good as any in the NHL. While Wideman isn't the best in his own end, Russell compliments him very well and conversely Wideman compliments Russell very well in the offensive zone.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Our second pairing has been dynamite; I don't know what some of the posters have been watching all season.

Russell has been the most steady dman we've had this year; Wideman is have a career year... I mean. There's not much to dislike about our middle pairing.

It's easy to get lost in names; when you see guys with pedigree or long last NHL careers on the second pairings of other teams... Don't kid yourself; this has been one of the top, top 4s in the league this year.

I don't know how you can make a statement about Russell being the Flames' most steady dman this season when we have another guy who is literally the frontrunner for the Norris trophy.

Russell has been impressive given his expectations, I don't think anyone will argue that. But Wideman and Russell cannot defend top end forwards well. Size is not always an issue, but for Kris Russell it is; you tack two inches and 15 lbs onto him and maybe it's a different story, but he does get outmuscled frequently, and he also doesn't compensate for that fact as well as he could. And Wideman is having a career year in points, but is still just as bleh defensively as he's always been.

 

[Wayne Primeau]

I just don't see the point of hating a defenseman who is taking up both he and Russell's offensive capabilities on that pairing, simply because it works. Russell is taking up both he and Wideman's defensive responsibilities, so it should work out just fine.

 

[MuffinMerc]

I just don't see the point of hating a defenseman who is taking up both he and Russell's offensive capabilities on that pairing, simply because it works. Russell is taking up both he and Wideman's defensive responsibilities, so it should work out just fine.

Absolutely not how that works for his position.A defenceman's job is to defend first. In the Flames end it should be 50/50 Russell - Wideman when they hit the ice but it's not. Wideman is all too often out of position or just plain lost his man. Hartley might as well make Wideman a winger and have Treliving find someone with a better sense of responsibility.

A defenceman needs to defend. Full stop. Everything after that is butter.

 

[Mr Lebowski]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say that we have a bad 2nd pair. Our 3rd pair is brutal. 2nd is stellar. Wideman's 7th in goals by a Dman and 14th in points by a Dman. He's not a mess defensively he okay. He's physical and good on the PP. Russel has been very solid offensively and defensively.

We need another Dman for the 3rd pair. For Glencross I'd like a deal like Glencross + Baertschi + Agostino for Gelinas and Jagr. If he'd waive

 

[Wayne Primeau]

Absolutely not how that works for his position.A defenceman's job is to defend first. In the Flames end it should be 50/50 Russell - Wideman when they hit the ice but it's not. Wideman is all too often out of position or just plain lost his man. Hartley might as well make Wideman a winger and have Treliving find someone with a better sense of responsibility.

A defenceman needs to defend. Full stop. Everything after that is butter.

OK then.

 

[Wayne Primeau]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say that we have a bad 2nd pair. Our 3rd pair is brutal. 2nd is stellar. Wideman's 7th in goals by a Dman and 14th in points by a Dman. He's not a mess defensively he okay. He's physical and good on the PP. Russel has been very solid offensively and defensively.

We need another Dman for the 3rd pair. For Glencross I'd like a deal like Glencross + Baertschi + Agostino for Gelinas and Jagr. If he'd waive

WHY JAGR may I ask

 

[Calculon]

Absolutely not how that works for his position.A defenceman's job is to defend first. In the Flames end it should be 50/50 Russell - Wideman when they hit the ice but it's not. Wideman is all too often out of position or just plain lost his man. Hartley might as well make Wideman a winger and have Treliving find someone with a better sense of responsibility.

A defenceman needs to defend. Full stop. Everything after that is butter.

A defense composed of defenders who can only defend and nothing else leads to a terrible team offense. Being able to move to puck up the ice is just as important in today's NHL as being able to stop opposing forwards.

Similarly, a two way game is a must for most forwards. The exception is for those who are elite in one area or another.