Coyotes Tempe arena project rejected by public referendum - will remain at Mullett Arena for 2023-24

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Yeah I could see that being an argument against Huston but at the same time I feel like Texans are good sports fans in general and if the team is successful people will show.

Not really the subject. Utah is a good destination, Houston too, Quebec too.

 

[Cinderblox]

The Coyotes would absolutely destroy Roman Reigns and Beerus in a handicap match

"BY GAWD, THAT'S GARY BETTMAN WITH A STEEL CHAIR!"

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

IMO it shouldn't go to Houston or Salt Lake City. Market size shouldn't be all that matters. What should matter most is competition in the city in regards to other sports. They need to find cities where they are the only game in town.

I'd try Austin, but I assume they don't have the arena?

 

[Harvey Birdman]

No talk of Austin?

They're a once-hip city that's been bending over backwards to be a big wealthy "it" city for over a decade. Mountains of construction, large white collar $$ population that's getting bigger every day, etc etc.

They could temporarily play in the AHL arena while the city backhands a deal for a stadium on the taxpayer's dime, they'd probably pay the ownership to be there. It would be the type of move to get Austin to that next level.

I also think them going to Canada and bumping Detroit back to the central would be cool.

Breaking News: Joe Rogan joins ownership group to bring hockey to Austin.

 

[BB79]

What’s -really- going on here Bettman?

He wants that TV market, and as long as some fool with deep pockets is willing to keep paying the price to maintain the franchise there, he's game. I really think it's that simple

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

No talk of Austin?

They're a once-hip city that's been bending over backwards to be a big wealthy "it" city for over a decade. Mountains of construction, large white collar $$ population that's getting bigger every day, etc etc.

They could temporarily play in the AHL arena while the city backhands a deal for a stadium on the taxpayer's dime, they'd probably pay the ownership to be there. It would be the type of move to get Austin to that next level.

I also think them going to Canada and bumping Detroit back to the central would be cool.

Seems like the ship has sailed with their construction of a new arena near downtown that would only seat 10k.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

The difference between you and me was that I was there for most of it and spoke to lots of the people behind the scenes and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Glendale promised a GIGANTIC Westgate that was to stretch way north of Westgate and south of the Cardinals stadium. This was to be a massive complex with housing, shopping, and other things to do. Then 9/11 happened and all construction was stopped. Over time, Glendale's promised plans for Westgate got smaller and smaller until they just gave up. The current Glendale government doesn't have a clue on what the original vision was instead they just stopped putting money into Westgate and eventually it will become a Ghost town.

I'd post links for this but you're too stubborn to read them.

9/11 bro ?????

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I still don't get this east/west conference thing.

The league should adopt divisions that are located the closest to each other:
- Vancouver, Seattle, Edmonton, Calgary
- San Jose, Vegas, Anaheim, Los Angeles
- Winnipeg, Minnesota, St.Louis, Chicago
- Denver, Dallas, (Houston), (Austin?/KC?)
- Nashville, Columbus, Detroit, (Milwaukee)
- Tampa Bay, Florida, (Atlanta), Raleigh
- Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington, Buffalo
- Boston, NYR, NYI, NJD
- Montreal, (Quebec), Toronto, Ottawa

 

[AndreRoy]

It is has been proven though that size of the population does not matter if there is no interest by said population. Interest always trumps size. Give me 2 million of crazy mad hockey fans in a population of 3 million over 1 million fans in a 10 million population. You site New Jersey being part of a well of a big population linked to the NYC area and so forth but for years NJ had terrible attendances. Even when they had competitive teams. I went there in the 90s and it was so easy to get tickets compared to the Rangers. And when we were there, the place was like a ghost town in the arena.

Yeah, like I said size isn’t a perfect predictor of success (and as I also said there are reasons besides size why Houston makes sense, including a proven history of interest in hockey.) But at the same time, the smaller the city the greater the percentage of residents that you need to convince to follow the team, buy tickets/merch, etc. All else being equal your required conversion rate for success is much lower in a larger metropolitan area. In addition a larger market will generally translate into more TV revenue as well as an opportunity to attract more fans through that medium. So while size doesn’t guarantee success, there are reasons why it’s attractive to a commissioner trying to grow the sport in a new area.

 

[bleedblue94]

So basically they're going to explore any viable options.

That's not really a contingency.

Look you're just trying to make an argument so if you want to do that go for it, but just because they haven't actually made public what they're doing behind the scenes it's really ignorant to suggest that they haven't done a lot of this already.

Did you have any idea the thrashers moving to Winnipeg before they actually did? Virtually nobody knew anything about it up until a week before it happened. You think that they just put that together on a whim and a couple of days? I know it's easy to crap all over the league at times but these guys aren't as stupid as a lot of fans want to imagine that they are. They may be stubborn and drive a lot of us crazy but they're not flat out stupid

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

 

[bossram]

Look you're just trying to make an argument so if you want to do that go for it, but just because they haven't actually made public what they're doing behind the scenes it's really ignorant to suggest that they haven't done a lot of this already.

Did you have any idea the thrashers moving to Winnipeg before they actually did? Virtually nobody knew anything about it up until a week before it happened. You think that they just put that together on a whim and a couple of days? I know it's easy to crap all over the league at times but these guys aren't as stupid as a lot of fans want to imagine that they are. They may be stubborn and drive a lot of us crazy but they're not flat out stupid

It's clear they don't have an immediate Plan B because they're just gonna stay at Mullet Arena for the season while figuring out their options.

It's not an argument. I am correct. You're the one trying to divinate the NHL's secret 10 dimensional plan here.

 

[AndreRoy]

IMO it shouldn't go to Houston or Salt Lake City. Market size shouldn't be all that matters. What should matter most is competition in the city in regards to other sports. They need to find cities where they are the only game in town.

Ok, so now you’re moving the goalposts. But that’s fine.

So your new criteria is that the city can’t have any other sports…why exactly? Without actually tallying it up my guess is that most successful NHL cities in the US have at least one other major sports franchise. And that’s because…wait for it…most successful NHL cities in the US have been in major metropolitan areas, which also tend to support multiple teams.

 

[Brookbank]

It looks like Salt Lake city is the favorite at this point. Of all the chatter I am read and listened to, its the favorite. The NHL wants Houston but at the last meeting between them , the group in Houston wasn't that excited about it and didn't have a very healthy offer. Which is good imo.

Alternatively, the prospective owners from Salt Lake are tweeting about it and seem pretty excited.

 

[stealth1]

Ok, so now you’re moving the goalposts. But that’s fine.

So your new criteria is that the city can’t have any other sports…why exactly? Without actually tallying it up my guess is that most successful NHL cities in the US have at least one other major sports franchise. And that’s because…wait for it…most successful NHL cities in the US have been in major metropolitan areas, which also tend to support multiple teams.

They can have other major sports. I just don't see the point in going to a city that already has the NBA to compete with. Baseball and NFL are fine.

 

[Brookbank]

Ok, so now you’re moving the goalposts. But that’s fine.

So your new criteria is that the city can’t have any other sports…why exactly? Without actually tallying it up my guess is that most successful NHL cities in the US have at least one other major sports franchise. And that’s because…wait for it…most successful NHL cities in the US have been in major metropolitan areas, which also tend to support multiple teams.

Atlanta was a mammoth metro area that bombed twice. Phionix is massive too and failed for 25 years.

 

[Brookbank]

Having the Coyotes end on a lame duck season in Mullet arena would be a shameful way to put down even a Coyote.

I think this is more of a signaling exercise. To show that they havn't given up. If they said " we are screwed, the team has to move" they wont have bargaining power.

 

[Voight]

The Coyotes got so much league support because the commissioner was more invested in trying to prove his critics wrong than he was about making money. The whole Coyotes tire fire is a borderline breach of his fiduciary duty considering putting another team in the GTA is like printing money.

The voting down of this deal is also a blessing in disguise. One of the owners in the deal has been shown to be a snake. If that's who he was, who is his business partners? The financing of this whole deal was probably on shaky ground. The arena would probably get half built before one of the owners bails.

It is just unreal who Bettman will involve himself with just to try and prove his critics wrong. While he was one of the richest people in Canada, with rock solid foundations and a building in Quebec, knocking on his door.

Yup, hell do anything to keep his pet project alive.

 

[Voight]

In their 1st season in Phoenix, the Coyotes had the 7th lowest attendance in all of hockey while making the playoffs.

Even after making a WCF run in 2012, attendance didn't improve much.

 

[Big Muddy]

not sure why Arizona being in the league makes LA less appealing. the only thing Arizona has is him going home. not all players recruit home. especially not ones in their prime to teams that are starting a total rebuild. Arizona never made sense at all, only thing that made it more interesting is if Arizona won Bedard

Well the going home option would be off the table if they relocated the franchise from Arizona to wherever. No idea if AM would like LA, or what he likes. He seems to like the big contract based on what's transpired so far. Not sure it makes much difference if the fab four stay in Toronto or go elsewhere. Leafs haven't accomplished anything in the playoffs anyhow. Those guys don't seem to like the playoff intensity and disappear in the big games, so maybe its even better they stay put and soak up even more of the Leaf's cap.

 

[AndreRoy]

The more density you have, the less of a problem distance is. Toronto/Hamilton is a 7.5 million person population which would make it the 4th biggest in North America if you exclude Mexico city.

And I am not saying there is a bias. It is just a business decision. And I think its the wrong one.

For starters you absolutely did say that there is a bias:

Another glaring contradiction that shows the bias for US teams.

Second, you’re comparing a single metropolitan area with two distinct metropolitan areas that are four hours apart, each of which is almost as large as the Toronto area, and you’re arguing that the former should have two teams and the latter only one between them? Absolutely nothing about that makes sense. Toronto/Hamilton with 7.5M people should have two teams but Houston with 7M can’t have one because Dallas with 7.5M is four hours away? Okay…

4.	Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX	7,451,858
5.	Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX	6,979,613

 

[ZDH]

lul Gary. Eat turds

 

[Kimota]

Yeah, like I said size isn’t a perfect predictor of success (and as I also said there are reasons besides size why Houston makes sense, including a proven history of interest in hockey.) But at the same time, the smaller the city the greater the percentage of residents that you need to convince to follow the team, buy tickets/merch, etc. All else being equal your required conversion rate for success is much lower in a larger metropolitan area. In addition a larger market will generally translate into more TV revenue as well as an opportunity to attract more fans through that medium. So while size doesn’t guarantee success, there are reasons why it’s attractive to a commissioner trying to grow the sport in a new area.

But as we have seen with the NHL going to many cities with a large population, it doesn't really equal to large revenues or interest or TV revenues. The NHL seem to go by some fictional concept that "there may be fans there". It's almost like they hired a science-fiction writer to run their business. And what saves them is essentialy the cap and revenue sharing. Why not use the UFC model: go to places where the interest is at its highest. That is why MMA has been the fast-growing sport. While the NHL has had financial issues with so many cities and attendance problems. They should realise they will never get a big TV deal no matter what, even if they multiply expansions in the most ridiculous areas.

 

[johnnybbadd]

First off I want to say that I feel bad for Yotes fans. Ownership is the most important foundation of a sports franchise and this city hasn’t had anything resembling stable ownership. It looks like relocation is coming and it looks like it would be between Houston and Quebec City. Those are the only 2 markets with ownership and arenas that would be ready either this year or next. I would say that Houston is the heavy favourite though. Atlanta is 4-5 years away at best with their new arena.

 

[AndreRoy]

They can have other major sports. I just don't see the point in going to a city that already has the NBA to compete with. Baseball and NFL are fine.

Moving the goalposts yet again. But again, that’s fine. Let’s see…

Bruins/Celtics
Red Wings/Pistons
Panthers/Heat
Leafs/Raptors
(used to be Devils/Nets)
Rangers&Islanders/Knicks&Nets
Flyers/76ers
Blackhawks/Bulls
Avalanche/Nuggets
Stars/Mavericks
Wild/Timberwolves
Kings&Ducks/Lakers&Clippers
Sharks/Warriors

Having an NBA team certainly doesn’t seem to be a disqualifier - in fact even excluding Phoenix over half of American NHL cities also have an NBA team in the same metro area.