OT: COVID-19- March 17 2020 - No politics! Read post #1

[WillNy29]

I think there are 2 scenarios:

1. Self-induced drastic measures to limit virus spread that will tank the economy, but saving many lives.
2. Let the virus spread, killing alot more people and making alot more people sick...and the economy tanks anyways.

I opt for option 1.

you wont save lives when an economy is tanked...despair deaths shot through the roof in 2008-09; economic ruin for people who are getting laid off and the small businesses laying them off is very real.

Mind you we should be nipping this virus in the bud right now like we are but we also need to provide relief to the people affected. As long as economic measures are taken to protect people alongside the shut downs we should be ok otherwise its going to get ugly regardless

 

[Kiwi]

As I said, multinationals don't go countries that have a zero corporate tax rate for all of the reasons I listed in my previous post. They have gone to countries like Ireland that has a 12% corporate tax rate. If the minimum tax rate was 10% in the U.S., it would still be lower than the countries like Ireland that have a population, etc. that makes it feasible to relocate to.

Economic unions are already floating proposals to stop corporations (international tax programs) from taking advantage of not paying taxes by locating to low tax jurisdictions. And it will be a majority rule situation there as well.

Again, its one idea of many.

The U.S. federal government tolerates companies like Amazon because they still pay state and local taxes. Again, there's lot of innovative ideas that could be used to get some money into the federal coffers even in the areas of taxation. I'm guessing a lot of people didn't know that Amazon has paid any federal taxes for 2 years, and that there average has been 10% over the last 10 years.

I found it interesting that Google was building a website as a private corporation response to the pandemic in the U.S. Maybe corporations make in kind contributions in areas that they are good at, or conversely, if they don't, they pay the minimum tax (P3s - public/private partnerships). The politicians will want to find the path of least resistance and tax increases that effect the voters have been the last thing they wanted to do. Things that effect a small number of corporations will probably receive more support than programs that effect every voter. They may have to find more innovative approaches. Who knows. The world was thought to be flat at one time, blood letting was thought to be a sound medical practice, women couldn't vote, man would never walk on the moon, PCs would never gain traction over mainframe computers, etc. I just like to think of the future & innovations in general. Time for me to shut down. Good conversation though.

They go to countries with corporate tax rates who give them tax carve outs, that's the type of power and financial clout they have

That's been getting floated for decades, it doesn't happen though because developing countries with infrastructure that could take them won't sign that, I don't blame them either

Google has been shown to be working with the Chinese government on some very nefarious software
Nike exploits slave labor in Asia
Amazon doesn't pay federal income tax

Call me cynical but when I look at a lot of those large multinationals I doubt they care about being "good global citizens", they care about themselves and the bottom line

If paying a bit more tax makes them look good they will do it, but it's going to be their decision imo

They pay zero federal tax. They still pay local and state taxes to operate. Do you think Amazons leverage is any less with other countries? The US offers the deal they have to be competitive. Would you prefer them setting up shop elsewhere?

No, somebody will give them a sweetheart deal as I was trying to explain to the other poster

He's slightly more idealistic than me

I'm not American so I don't really care either way, they will get there's no matter where they are

 

[Superstar]

you wont save lives when an economy is tanked...despair deaths shot through the roof in 2008-09; economic ruin for people who are getting laid off and the small businesses laying them off is very real.

Mind you we should be nipping this virus in the bud right now like we are but we also need to provide relief to the people affected. As long as economic measures are taken to protect people alongside the shut downs we should be ok otherwise its going to get ugly regardless

I agree...I don't mean the folks who are affected financially should be left to fend for themselves...the government and corporations need to step in and provide some financial assistance to the general population and their employees that are affected by the virus...but we simply can't let the virus uncontrolled run it's course through the population...more people will die, more people will get sick, and the medical facilities will be stressed to the point of breaking...would people want to go to the medical clinics and hospitals with an unrelated sickness only to catch the corona virus? If one is being treated for cancer, diabetes or another kind of ailment, and the virus runs rampant, how safe would this world be? And there won't be people working if they are dead or are sick...the economy will tank regardless.

And even if one has recovered from the virus, one could catch it again, so if it's not stopped, it will just keep circulating.

 

[kesleaf]

Just wait... The Nationalization of...

Boeing - GM - Chrysler - Tesla and the list will go on and on. The supply chain is broken, manufacturing is just about to grind to a halt as the shipments are 3 weeks behind generally but that doesn't include inventory on hand. National Emergency is declared and the right of GOV is to take over all domestic assets including personally held GOLD, SILVER, LAND etc for National Security. all in Law, all enforced and all active as of NOW. If you think this 2008 or 2000 you would be wrong, this is 1929 and beyond.

This is the kind of situation that could spiral into picking a fight with Iran, SA, Iraq just to disrupt the movement of oil to get the prices back up etc.

between this tinfoil homer and stubborn boomers ignoring social distancing and hitting up bingo, I could really slap the shit out of some people.

 

[Rogie]

The North is relatively wealthy, they eat olives and drink wine, everyone up there lives to 99.

It's a good point, and Cdns (similar to American) are not a very healthy (on average) group, with obesity and all kinds of ills and ails of all sorts among the population. Multiple co-morbitities that could make young people less immune from the virus than normal, even though, youth are usually not as affected.

 

[slozo]

Haven't read through this whole thread, interesting as it is - too busy with kids, honestly - but has anyone mentioned the devastating death toll, homelessness, etc that will have resulted from a total economic freeze as we are seeing?

Anyone commented on the utter devastation to small business, and what a gain that is for big corporate business?

And any mention of what a coincidence it was that a record number of CEOs stepped down or retired from major corporations in the few months preceding this Coronavirus shutdown/economic meltdown?

Any mention at all?
Just curious as to who's awake.

 

[Rogie]

All fair points, say we do nothing , worst case scenario is we have a year of a really bad virus, we develop a vaccine by the winter and bob is your uncle

Is your 'worst case scenario' realistic.

Worst case scenario would mean, checking around at what has already happened and then accepting, things would be worse than that, at the very least - so, a worst case scenario would have to be worse than Italy, at the very least, i'm just trying to be logical here that's all.

If you are watching Italy, you will know their cases are over 31,000, deaths are over 2500 and they have had 3 consecutive days where about 350 people have died. There are over 2000 folks still critical or serious.

Again, this is right now and this is real, so, a worst case scenario, surely, has to be at least this or worse.

Are you okay with this? I hope you are not.

 

[Bluelines]

I think there are 2 scenarios:

1. Self-induced drastic measures to limit virus spread that will tank the economy, but saving many lives.
2. Let the virus spread, killing alot more people and making alot more people sick...and the economy tanks anyways.

I opt for option 1.

I think there is a third option, be responsible, be an adult. The vast majority of transmissions are due to people traveling over seas, relationship transmission (family , close friends) or health care workers. You kinda already know if your social network is high risk, don't socialize with them for a few weeks/months. 2) WASH YOUR HANDS, hygiene is by far the best and most effective method in preventing transmission of the virus. 3) Avoid large crowds or gatherings. 4) If you can work from home do, if you can't insist that your employer take appropriate measures to ensure your work place is safe. 5) If you have a family member, friend or social acquaintance that is elderly or has a compromised health situation, DON'T PUT THEM AT RISK.

I get that this virus is highly contagious it has a R0 value between 2 to 5, that is insanely high, I get that it can lead to pneumonia, I get that for a certain extremely small part of our population it is lethal and I empathize with them. I completely under stand all that. Sometimes there is value in stepping back ans assessing your approach., we've had 5 deaths so far, there are about the same number of deaths (3) each year in Canada due to dog attacks. I realize I sound callous and cold but the greater good should always outweigh the benefit to a small part of our population.

Again I do feel there should be an appropriate response, I do feel that the world is over reacting. Killing a moth with a flamethrower.

 

[Bluelines]

Except it isn't that easy, everyone has activties/jobs everyday that involves being close to a person. What we are doing is the best option and in the end should last, hopefully, for only 2 to 3 weeks, 4 at most.

Imagine seeing this spread in major cities like NY, Toronto, Chicago, Dallas etc and how many could die cause of this, guaranteed the numbers would be the same as the potential recession you keep talking about.

Devils advocate, how many people committed suicide because of the last recession? How many divorces, broken families happened as a result of lost jobs? How many crimes happened? How many children did not go to university because they could not afford to? Murders? Rapes? Abuse? Robbery? Mental Health issues rise in times of economic recessions.

Economic prosperity serves as a backbone for the overall progress of a nation. One thing is common in all developed nations- they are economically sound. When citizens of a country are freed from the worries of earning a livelihood to sustain their lives, they divert their attention to more useful things. They focus on education, improvise healthcare, develop technologies that make life easy and much more. Poor economic condition is the root cause of so many problems that exist in a society.

Economic Factors Leading To Increased Crime Rate Economics Essay

Using data recorded by police in 15 countries on the incidence of robbery, homicide and car theft, the report focuses on the possible effects of economic stress, in particular during the global financial crisis of 2008-2009. In 8 of 11 countries undergoing economic upheavals, a link between economic factors and crime could be clearly established.

Economic crises may trigger rise in crime​

I would suggest the impact to us in a recession far outweighs the impact from this global pandemic, the difference is if it bleeds it leads and this virus is the celebrity of the day in our news media. So we as people don't question the response, we don't demand an appropriate response, we demand an indiscriminate carpet bombing approach on an issue that is so infinitesimally small for the greater population compared to the recession we are driving ourselves into, the damage from the response far out weighs the original problem.

Appropriate, proportionate, targeted, responsible is all I ask for.

 

[horner]

ULF_55

answer to your comment

Not everyone that works as a sub contractor work under the table .
I for one recieved a check .
I for one have payed WSIB to the last 7 yrs to the lump sum of $27,000.00 . The funny thing is I am my own business so I can never recieved WSIB even if I got injured .
I find it truly funny that people who don't work and recieved ODSP still recieve there check or new immigrants still recieve there check.
Not just me but everyone that works in Ontario are worried how they are going to pay for things , except ODSP and new immigrants.

 

[Bluelines]

after seeing Queens University student interview for st. patricks day...

kids are stupid everywhere

i think the problem is the whole "if you're young, you'll be ok" went to their head

That is the problem, when society experiences an event like this, the selfish and stupid are our weakest link. How hard is it for a person to put a pause on going to the beach, or celebrating St Patty's day in a crowded bar?

Take my family for an example, we tend to be a very active house, for the last 4 weeks, we have gone out twice to a public place, CostCo, we Purelle our hands after leaving the store, then we wash our hands when we get home after handling the food ... we don't go to hockey game's, movies, out to dinner, shopping at the malls, the bar, Tim Hortons , we simply adjusted our lifestyle. We wipe down doorknobs and surfaces (in our house) that have human contact at least once a day, hopefully that is sufficient to prevent us from contracting this virus, if not at least we know we are taking responsible steps.

 

[LeafSteel]

I manage a bank branch for one of the biggest banks in Canada. We are being mandated by our employers as an essential service and that we must come into the Branch daily.

I am in a very busy branch, seeing over 3000 clients on a weekly basis. I am disappointed at the callous disregard for our employee's well-being that we are being shown by our clients. We have had clients lie to our staff about not having travelled recently without self-isolation, and the majority of the banking being done now I would consider non-essential.

While many people like coming to the CA's (tellers) so that they "can keep their job" (I've managed Branches for 15 years and not one of my staff have been downsized despite launching significant digital platforms in that time), almost 90% of personal banking can be done via online, at the bank machine or on mobile apps. There is no need for anyone to come to deposit their cheque, take out $100, or pay their bills in person. Withdrawals from TFSA's and investments, for the most part, can be done on-line or through telephone banking.

It is just mind-boggling to me how poor judgement is being shown, starting with our most vulnerable seniors, coming in and putting everyone's health at risk because they want to pay their bills in person, and refusing to be shown how to do it at the ATM. These are not normal times and while I understand that banking is essential, not everything needs to be done now or in person.

My staff have families and young children, with several of them being single parents, all of which are put at risk by some pretty thoughtless and trivial visits. One of my Financial Advisors had her client lie to her, that she hadn't travelled, and then said she travelled but has been back for a month, and then admitted when we showed her account activity that she was in Hong Kong on Sunday and that she hasn't self-quarantined. There are no words for this kind of behaviour, but they start with callous, selfish, and almost criminal. This is what we are facing and it is unnecessary.

Folks please, if you have older parents, help them to do their banking on-line. My 83-year-old mom is now an expert, and she receives everything (CPP, OAS) direct deposit, and has her bills set up to come from her account. They are our most vulnerable people and while I encourage my mom to get out and stay active now is not the time for them to be coming into the Branch and standing in line to pay their VISA bill which isn't due until next month.

Stay safe everyone, and hoping for the best for your families.

 

[Bluelines]

I manage a bank branch for one of the biggest banks in Canada. We are being mandated by our employers as an essential service and that we must come into the Branch daily.

I am in a very busy branch, seeing over 3000 clients on a weekly basis. I am disappointed at the callous disregard for our employee's well-being that we are being shown by our clients. We have had clients lie to our staff about not having travelled recently without self-isolation, and the majority of the banking being done now I would consider non-essential.

While many people like coming to the CA's (tellers) so that they "can keep their job" (I've managed Branches for 15 years and not one of my staff have been downsized despite launching significant digital platforms in that time), almost 90% of personal banking can be done via online, at the bank machine or on mobile apps. There is no need for anyone to come to deposit their cheque, take out $100, or pay their bills in person. Withdrawals from TFSA's and investments, for the most part, can be done on-line or through telephone banking.

It is just mind-boggling to me how poor judgement is being shown, starting with our most vulnerable seniors, coming in and putting everyone's health at risk because they want to pay their bills in person, and refusing to be shown how to do it at the ATM. These are not normal times and while I understand that banking is essential, not everything needs to be done now or in person.

My staff have families and young children, with several of them being single parents, all of which are put at risk by some pretty thoughtless and trivial visits. One of my Financial Advisors had her client lie to her, that she hadn't travelled, and then said she travelled but has been back for a month, and then admitted when we showed her account activity that she was in Hong Kong on Sunday and that she hasn't self-quarantined. There are no words for this kind of behaviour, but they start with callous, selfish, and almost criminal. This is what we are facing and it is unnecessary.

Folks please, if you have older parents, help them to do their banking on-line. My 83-year-old mom is now an expert, and she receives everything (CPP, OAS) direct deposit, and has her bills set up to come from her account. They are our most vulnerable people and while I encourage my mom to get out and stay active now is not the time for them to be coming into the Branch and standing in line to pay their VISA bill which isn't due until next month.

Stay safe everyone, and hoping for the best for your families.

Good advice, money is dirty, I would not want to be one of your tellers that has to touch that stuff.

 

[member 300185]

Kids today.....the "only me" movement.

 

[member 300185]

Good advice, money is dirty, I would not want to be one of your tellers that has to touch that stuff.

And think about your credit card. If there is no tap and you have to insert the card, that card has now touched where thousands of other cards touch.

 

[Blue Nate]

Kids today.....the "only me" movement.

Kids have been kids since the dawn of time.

 

[Rogie]

I manage a bank branch for one of the biggest banks in Canada. We are being mandated by our employers as an essential service and that we must come into the Branch daily.

I am in a very busy branch, seeing over 3000 clients on a weekly basis. I am disappointed at the callous disregard for our employee's well-being that we are being shown by our clients. We have had clients lie to our staff about not having travelled recently without self-isolation, and the majority of the banking being done now I would consider non-essential.

While many people like coming to the CA's (tellers) so that they "can keep their job" (I've managed Branches for 15 years and not one of my staff have been downsized despite launching significant digital platforms in that time), almost 90% of personal banking can be done via online, at the bank machine or on mobile apps. There is no need for anyone to come to deposit their cheque, take out $100, or pay their bills in person. Withdrawals from TFSA's and investments, for the most part, can be done on-line or through telephone banking.

It is just mind-boggling to me how poor judgement is being shown, starting with our most vulnerable seniors, coming in and putting everyone's health at risk because they want to pay their bills in person, and refusing to be shown how to do it at the ATM. These are not normal times and while I understand that banking is essential, not everything needs to be done now or in person.

My staff have families and young children, with several of them being single parents, all of which are put at risk by some pretty thoughtless and trivial visits. One of my Financial Advisors had her client lie to her, that she hadn't travelled, and then said she travelled but has been back for a month, and then admitted when we showed her account activity that she was in Hong Kong on Sunday and that she hasn't self-quarantined. There are no words for this kind of behaviour, but they start with callous, selfish, and almost criminal. This is what we are facing and it is unnecessary.

Folks please, if you have older parents, help them to do their banking on-line. My 83-year-old mom is now an expert, and she receives everything (CPP, OAS) direct deposit, and has her bills set up to come from her account. They are our most vulnerable people and while I encourage my mom to get out and stay active now is not the time for them to be coming into the Branch and standing in line to pay their VISA bill which isn't due until next month.

Stay safe everyone, and hoping for the best for your families.

Very well said, hope things get better there for you and the staff.

 

[Rogie]

I manage a bank branch for one of the biggest banks in Canada. We are being mandated by our employers as an essential service and that we must come into the Branch daily.

I am in a very busy branch, seeing over 3000 clients on a weekly basis. I am disappointed at the callous disregard for our employee's well-being that we are being shown by our clients. We have had clients lie to our staff about not having travelled recently without self-isolation, and the majority of the banking being done now I would consider non-essential.

While many people like coming to the CA's (tellers) so that they "can keep their job" (I've managed Branches for 15 years and not one of my staff have been downsized despite launching significant digital platforms in that time), almost 90% of personal banking can be done via online, at the bank machine or on mobile apps. There is no need for anyone to come to deposit their cheque, take out $100, or pay their bills in person. Withdrawals from TFSA's and investments, for the most part, can be done on-line or through telephone banking.

It is just mind-boggling to me how poor judgement is being shown, starting with our most vulnerable seniors, coming in and putting everyone's health at risk because they want to pay their bills in person, and refusing to be shown how to do it at the ATM. These are not normal times and while I understand that banking is essential, not everything needs to be done now or in person.

My staff have families and young children, with several of them being single parents, all of which are put at risk by some pretty thoughtless and trivial visits. One of my Financial Advisors had her client lie to her, that she hadn't travelled, and then said she travelled but has been back for a month, and then admitted when we showed her account activity that she was in Hong Kong on Sunday and that she hasn't self-quarantined. There are no words for this kind of behaviour, but they start with callous, selfish, and almost criminal. This is what we are facing and it is unnecessary.

Folks please, if you have older parents, help them to do their banking on-line. My 83-year-old mom is now an expert, and she receives everything (CPP, OAS) direct deposit, and has her bills set up to come from her account. They are our most vulnerable people and while I encourage my mom to get out and stay active now is not the time for them to be coming into the Branch and standing in line to pay their VISA bill which isn't due until next month.

Stay safe everyone, and hoping for the best for your families.

Just a suggestion, probably stupid, but move your chair back away from desk as much as you can, for those staff who are seeing people in an office situation, hand sanitizer maybe on the way in and out of each office, and anything else you can do to protect yourselves; i'm sure you're doing this already, but, just try to step it up more, if you can. Now is not the time to worry about care how things look, or if anyone is embarrassed, we're past that point. I wear gloves when I go out, have been doing that for a month, cause I'm in Korea, in the middle of the storm.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Haven't read through this whole thread, interesting as it is - too busy with kids, honestly - but has anyone mentioned the devastating death toll, homelessness, etc that will have resulted from a total economic freeze as we are seeing?

Anyone commented on the utter devastation to small business, and what a gain that is for big corporate business?

And any mention of what a coincidence it was that a record number of CEOs stepped down or retired from major corporations in the few months preceding this Coronavirus shutdown/economic meltdown?

Any mention at all?
Just curious as to who's awake.

It's almost like they knew something was coming... nah coincidence. I guess "Event 201" was another coincidence too.

 

[Peasy]

Kids today.....the "only me" movement.

All demographics are being completely ignorant to the situation. Let's not kid ourselves.

I have a friend who's boss went to Hong Kong two weeks ago and did not self isolate afterwards. Went to work as normal.

I know another person who's parents went to Puerto Rico last week but again, refused to self isolate after coming home despite the government telling everyone to, and their own children asking them to.

 

[horner]

I manage a bank branch for one of the biggest banks in Canada. We are being mandated by our employers as an essential service and that we must come into the Branch daily.

I am in a very busy branch, seeing over 3000 clients on a weekly basis. I am disappointed at the callous disregard for our employee's well-being that we are being shown by our clients. We have had clients lie to our staff about not having travelled recently without self-isolation, and the majority of the banking being done now I would consider non-essential.

While many people like coming to the CA's (tellers) so that they "can keep their job" (I've managed Branches for 15 years and not one of my staff have been downsized despite launching significant digital platforms in that time), almost 90% of personal banking can be done via online, at the bank machine or on mobile apps. There is no need for anyone to come to deposit their cheque, take out $100, or pay their bills in person. Withdrawals from TFSA's and investments, for the most part, can be done on-line or through telephone banking.

It is just mind-boggling to me how poor judgement is being shown, starting with our most vulnerable seniors, coming in and putting everyone's health at risk because they want to pay their bills in person, and refusing to be shown how to do it at the ATM. These are not normal times and while I understand that banking is essential, not everything needs to be done now or in person.

My staff have families and young children, with several of them being single parents, all of which are put at risk by some pretty thoughtless and trivial visits. One of my Financial Advisors had her client lie to her, that she hadn't travelled, and then said she travelled but has been back for a month, and then admitted when we showed her account activity that she was in Hong Kong on Sunday and that she hasn't self-quarantined. There are no words for this kind of behaviour, but they start with callous, selfish, and almost criminal. This is what we are facing and it is unnecessary.

Folks please, if you have older parents, help them to do their banking on-line. My 83-year-old mom is now an expert, and she receives everything (CPP, OAS) direct deposit, and has her bills set up to come from her account. They are our most vulnerable people and while I encourage my mom to get out and stay active now is not the time for them to be coming into the Branch and standing in line to pay their VISA bill which isn't due until next month.

Stay safe everyone, and hoping for the best for your families.

I agree.

Bumped into a delivery driver
( for a pharmacy company, also an essential service ) in my apartment building .
Some clients he has to receive money , personally people should get someone to pay at the pharmacy .
All that he should have to do is knock at there door or call them stand back and make sure the client gets there medication.

 

[Bluelines]

And think about your credit card. If there is no tap and you have to insert the card, that card has now touched where thousands of other cards touch.

The key pad on the ATM machine is so freaking dirty, even before this Covid-19 , after I touch the key pad, I wash my hands every time. I was watching an investigative show on germs, maybe it was Marketplace? cant recall the name of the show, they tested ATM Machines and every one they tested had measurable traces of fecal matter on the buttons. PEOPLE ARE SOOOOOO GROSSSS!!!!!!!!

Hygiene people, brush your teeth 3 times a day, floss, take a shower at least 4 times a week, wash your hands after you go to the bathroom... it's simple, don't be gross.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

And any mention of what a coincidence it was that a record number of CEOs stepped down or retired from major corporations in the few months preceding this Coronavirus shutdown/economic meltdown?

This is one point I don't hear anything about but that strikes me as pretty bizarre. The list of top CEO types that have stepped down in the last couple of months is pretty staggering.

 

[Bluelines]

All demographics are being completely ignorant to the situation. Let's not kid ourselves.

I have a friend who's boss went to Hong Kong two weeks ago and did not self isolate afterwards. Went to work as normal.

I know another person who's parents went to Puerto Rico last week but again, refused to self isolate after coming home despite the government telling everyone to, and their own children asking them to.

Selfish people do selfish things. The scary thing is they will probably be the last ones to survive in an Apocalypse.

 

[Bluelines]

This is one point I don't hear anything about but that strikes me as pretty bizarre. The list of top CEO types that have stepped down in the last couple of months is pretty staggering.

Conspiracy theories are fun but usually just the product of people who have too much time to think. I'd love to see a list of retired CEO's each year over the last 10 to see if there is indeed a staggering number last year compared to previous years.

Hmmmmmm... global warming.... NASA is sending a space craft to the sun to "monitor"the Sun's activity... rich CEO's retiring ... my smart home device was telling me yesterday it was +10 but it was snowing outside.... Covid-19 .... electronic devices acting funny lately ... Putin threatening to flood the market with Oil dropping Oil to a 30 year low, a major sell off on stocks ... hundred year storms happening multiple times each year... the Leafs are still in a playoff spot..... what is the common denominator here ...