Prospect Info: Cossa Crushing it in Grand Rapids

[norrisnick]

He's a goalie. Who cares?

 

[Ezekial]

Ok great.

So basically just don’t bother talking about Cossa because “development is non linear”?

Why even have a message boards if you can’t talk about the struggles of a player?

I think what is being said is you can talk about a player struggling but treating this as a game day thread for his struggles doesn't do anything except cause yourself stress. Macro analysis > microanalysis for long term prospect development.
No one thinks Cossa is thriving right now, but he's also a young player to be playing in pro leagues still. For instance, Carter Hart was in the WHL still when he was Cossa's age, then when he went pro he was doing prettygood in the AHL, then was thrust into the NHL and performed even better over a longer period than his AHL stint. Goalies are weird.

 

[SirloinUB]

Ok great.

So basically just don’t bother talking about Cossa because “development is non linear”?

Why even have a message boards if you can’t talk about the struggles of a player?

If that’s your take away, have at it.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think what is being said is you can talk about a player struggling but treating this as a game day thread for his struggles doesn't do anything except cause yourself stress. Macro analysis > microanalysis for long term prospect development.
No one thinks Cossa is thriving right now, but he's also a young player to be playing in pro leagues still. For instance, Carter Hart was in the WHL still when he was Cossa's age, then when he went pro he was doing prettygood in the AHL, then was thrust into the NHL and performed even better over a longer period than his AHL stint. Goalies are weird.

Carter Hart was also 20 when he played his first season in the AHL, same as Cossa.

Cossa is actually the normal age to be playing pro as a 1st round goalie.

I am macro analyzing him. I’m not coming in after each game. I’m saying he’s been bad all year long and his two year trend has not been encouraging.

Certainly doesn’t mean he’s going to bust, but people are fooling themselves saying there’s “no cause for concern”.

There absolutely is concern that your 15th overall pick is having a hard time with rebounds, confidence, and simply tracking a puck. You hope to see some type of improvement soon.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Has anyone actually watched Cossa play this year at either the AHL or ECHL levels? If so, I am curious to hear about what he is doing well and what he is struggling with. Any discussion beyond GAA and SV% is very much appreciated

 

[nbwingsfan]

Has anyone actually watched Cossa play this year at either the AHL or ECHL levels? If so, I am curious to hear about what he is doing well and what he is struggling with. Any discussion beyond GAA and SV% is very much appreciated

From highlights I’ve seen (which is much easier to judge a goalie through than a player), he has a really tough time tracking shots. Basic shots seem to get through him that shouldn’t have been an issue.

The one thing I’ve found he’s actually been somewhat okay at is rebound control, which is encouraging at least.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Cossa will be fine. He got bored AF in the WHL and made everyone his daddy. Now he’s playing w the big boys at a much faster pace and has to learn to read offenses a bit better. It’s only a matter of time before he starts trending in the right direction. He’s only 20, people forget that.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

From highlights I’ve seen (which is much easier to judge a goalie through than a player), he has a really tough time tracking shots. Basic shots seem to get through him that shouldn’t have been an issue.

The one thing I’ve found he’s actually been somewhat okay at is rebound control, which is encouraging at least.

So you haven't actually watched him play. That is par for the course around here.

 

[nbwingsfan]

So you haven't actually watched him play. That is par for the course around here.

This isn’t like watching a player. You can see exactly what a goalie did poorly on a goal against.

What exactly is watching the cycle or breakouts going to do when evaluating a goalie?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

This isn’t like watching a player. You can see exactly what a goalie did poorly on a goal against.

What exactly is watching the cycle or breakouts going to do when evaluating a goalie?

It literally ignores all of the saves he actually made during the game, not to mention how he read attempted shots.

I don't think anyone should be forced to like Cossa as a prospect, but a modicum of honesty is in order in evaluating and discussing his play this year.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It literally ignores all of the saves he actually made during the game, not to mention how he read attempted shots.

I don't think anyone should be forced to like Cossa as a prospect, but a modicum of honesty is in order in evaluating and discussing his play this year.

It doesn’t ignore all the saves, because any good ones are also shown in the highlights.

Also if he lets in 2-3 brutal stinkers, who cares how many routine saves he made? You’re not rebounding from that anyways.

“I know he let in two weak, low percentage wrist shots, but did you see how in position he kind of looked on that blocked shot attempt!?” … really stretching on the Cossa defenses here…

 

[Ezekial]

It doesn’t ignore all the saves, because any good ones are also shown in the highlights.

Also if he lets in 2-3 brutal stinkers, who cares how many routine saves he made? You’re not rebounding from that anyways.

“I know he let in two weak, low percentage wrist shots, but did you see how in position he kind of looked on that blocked shot attempt!?” … really stretching on the Cossa defenses here…

- goalie should be the easiest position to scout then, just watch highlights and you'll see their good saves!

 

[ricky0034]

- goalie should be the easiest position to scout then, just watch highlights and you'll see their good saves!

maybe Goalie scouting sucks because they haven't figured that out yet

 

[nbwingsfan]

- goalie should be the easiest position to scout then, just watch highlights and you'll see their good saves!

Watching a goalie give up 2-3 freebies a game is literally all you need to see…

 

[stillwater]

Maybe if he had the same team in front of him his numbers would be worse as well. Or maybe even better. Kind of a pointless comparison though.


Edit:
Like this guy on Carolina, I'd imagine if he was our goalie we'd be worse off than with Husso, but this guy has the 2nd lowest gaa in the league
View attachment 626591

Ned had great numbers with Carolina too. How quickly people forget about the nonsense of the lure of small sample sizes.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Watching a goalie give up 2-3 freebies a game is literally all you need to see…

No it isn’t. Please, stop acting like you understand the position. I was actually kind of with you and willing to listen that hey, you’re seeing the macro trend and Cossa hasn’t been good overall.

But no, a whole hell of a lot happens in net that comprises development that has nothing to do with you biffing a weak wrister or two. If you’re using highlights to determine whether a goalie is good or bad… holy lord, you’re doing it wrong.

Most of the time, the routine saves look simple because the goalie, by his positioning, has only given them that area to shoot at.

A lot of a goalie’s performance depends on his relationship with his D. If he can trust they’ll take away the cross-ice stuff and take the pass on odd man rushes, he will play it one way. If the defense stinks and doesn’t do that… he’ll play a different way and have to guess at what the skater is doing and look dumb.

E: just for instance… no goalie is humanly reacting to Ovi’s one-timer. It seems like they do because they’re reading the play and understand it is likely to come… a lot of goaltending is tracking tendencies and making educated guesses (or manipulating the shooter, like Dom did).

Some goalies have outstanding reflexes and can respond better than others (Quick was notoriously athletic and springy) but most of it is a mental game, if we’re being honest.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Carter Hart was also 20 when he played his first season in the AHL, same as Cossa.

I think the point was that Carter Hart played his D+1 and D+2 season in the WHL, whereas Cossa only played his D+1 year before turning pro. So no, it's actually not common for goalies to turn pro at this point in their career. Cossa is an early birthday in his class which opened this door for him, Hart was a late birthday in his class which made it impossible for him to turn pro (to the AHL) after his D+1 year. Not to mention the end of Cossa's D-1 year and 70% of his draft year and playoffs were lost due to the pandemic shutting things down.

To further illustrate the difference between Hart and Cossa, look at it this way. At the CHL level or higher (WJC) before turning pro:

Hart
WHL Regular Season (4 years) - 190 games
WHL Playoffs (4 years) - 49 games
WJC (2 years) - 10 games
Total - 249 games

Cossa
WHL Regular Season (3 years) - 98 games
WHL Playoffs (1 year) - 19 games
WJC (1 year) - 1 game
Total - 118 games

Hart had played literally more than double the amount of games in the crucial developmental years than Cossa did before they turned pro respectively. Cossa would have to play two full seasons to catch up to Hart's mark, and instead he and the team decided to turn him pro. There's no comparison that can be made to Wallstedt considering he played professionally in Sweden on a limited basis, so the shellshock factor should be (and has been) much less for him.

When it comes to Cossa, the only argument that I would be willing to entertain is that someone disagrees with the draft philosophy that led the Wings to take a player with a relatively extreme lack of track record/experience. He had 52 WHL games under his belt when he was made our selection. His learning curve was going to have to be massive, and in the end it might still prove to be not enough.

It's fine to be concerned that he might never figure it out, but the Wings also made a decision such that these concerns are calculated risks and should have been assumed. This next part is not directed at you personally, but if the shoe fits, feel free to take it personally....grandstanding about "knowing" Wallstedt would be better or acting shocked that the sky is falling just means that you weren't paying attention to begin with.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think the point was that Carter Hart played his D+1 and D+2 season in the WHL, whereas Cossa only played his D+1 year before turning pro. So no, it's actually not common for goalies to turn pro at this point in their career. Cossa is an early birthday in his class which opened this door for him, Hart was a late birthday in his class which made it impossible for him to turn pro (to the AHL) after his D+1 year. Not to mention the end of Cossa's D-1 year and 70% of his draft year and playoffs were lost due to the pandemic shutting things down.

To further illustrate the difference between Hart and Cossa, look at it this way. At the CHL level or higher (WJC) before turning pro:

Hart
WHL Regular Season (4 years) - 190 games
WHL Playoffs (4 years) - 49 games
WJC (2 years) - 10 games
Total - 249 games

Cossa
WHL Regular Season (3 years) - 98 games
WHL Playoffs (1 year) - 19 games
WJC (1 year) - 1 game
Total - 118 games

Hart had played literally more than double the amount of games in the crucial developmental years than Cossa did before they turned pro respectively. Cossa would have to play two full seasons to catch up to Hart's mark, and instead he and the team decided to turn him pro. There's no comparison that can be made to Wallstedt considering he played professionally in Sweden on a limited basis, so the shellshock factor should be (and has been) much less for him.

When it comes to Cossa, the only argument that I would be willing to entertain is that someone disagrees with the draft philosophy that led the Wings to take a player with a relatively extreme lack of track record/experience. He had 52 WHL games under his belt when he was made our selection. His learning curve was going to have to be massive, and in the end it might still prove to be not enough.

It's fine to be concerned that he might never figure it out, but the Wings also made a decision such that these concerns are calculated risks and should have been assumed. This next part is not directed at you personally, but if the shoe fits, feel free to take it personally....grandstanding about "knowing" Wallstedt would be better or acting shocked that the sky is falling just means that you weren't paying attention to begin with.

Cossa is a late birthday.

Hart played his 16,17,18 and 19 yo seasons in the CHL

Cossa played his 17, 18 and 19yo seasons in the CHL.

Yes it’s very rare for the top goalie prospects to still be playing in a junior league at 20.

 

[jaster]

Cossa is a late birthday.

No, he's an early birthday. He's older for his class. It's why he was ineligible for the WJC this year while most kids in his class could play.

Cossa was 18yo and 7 months when he was drafted.

Hart was 17yo and 10 months when he was drafted.

 

[Oddbob]

Can Cossa be sent to the WHL, because maybe that is the best route the rest of this season? Even with his struggles, in the offseason goalie coaches can work with him on his game, where he is good and bad, it isn't like he can't have some of his weaknesses coached out of him. It's concerning to see him struggle we just have to be patient.

 

[Killerjas]

He's a goalie. Who cares?

Most important position in the game, but whatever

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Can Cossa be sent to the WHL, because maybe that is the best route the rest of this season? Even with his struggles, in the offseason goalie coaches can work with him on his game, where he is good and bad, it isn't like he can't have some of his weaknesses coached out of him. It's concerning to see him struggle we just have to be patient.

I don’t see what that does for him.

Maybe it’ll make his save percentage look better or something… but I’d rather have him working with better coaches than worse coaches and playing against better talent than worse talent. In no way is it an appropriate reaction to send Cossa back to juniors. Even if he goes .950 there, it’s pretty much worthless for his development and would only assuage the doubts of stat watchers.

Hell, I’d toss him full time into the AHL and not dick around with this tap dance. I get they want him to see the ice a ton, but it can’t be helpful for learning to be getting yanked from one team to the other so often.

 

[norrisnick]

Most important position in the game, but whatever

Only in the sense that it is the most important position to not be bad. A goalie can lose you games but he can't win you any. A great defenseman controls the ice. A great goalie can only delay a loss.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I don’t see what that does for him.

Maybe it’ll make his save percentage look better or something… but I’d rather have him working with better coaches than worse coaches and playing against better talent than worse talent. In no way is it an appropriate reaction to send Cossa back to juniors. Even if he goes .950 there, it’s pretty much worthless for his development and would only assuage the doubts of stat watchers.

Hell, I’d toss him full time into the AHL and not dick around with this tap dance. I get they want him to see the ice a ton, but it can’t be helpful for learning to be getting yanked from one team to the other so often.

Good take.

It can't help anyone get comfortable in an environment that is constantly changing.

 

[nbwingsfan]

No, he's an early birthday. He's older for his class. It's why he was ineligible for the WJC this year while most kids in his class could play.

Cossa was 18yo and 7 months when he was drafted.

Hart was 17yo and 10 months when he was drafted.

That’s not how things work

2003 borns were eligible for the 2021 Draft.

Cossa was born in 2002. He was one of the oldest players in his draft class.

He had an extra year of development.

Had he been two months earlier he would of been a 2020 draft pick

I can’t believe I still have to explain this.