Prospect Info: Cossa Crushing it in Grand Rapids

[Hen Kolland]

"This guy is great in lower leagues, but he might not be able to take the next step to be a star in the NHL"
and
"This guy is absolute garbage in lower leagues, but he might still be a star in the NHL"

Aren't exactly equivalent statements.


I'm not saying Cossa is garbage. I haven't watched him much. But I don't know why some people seem to think we're forbidden from trying to form an opinion on him.

Understand that this isn’t directed at you particularly, but you are being used to make a generalization.

The reason is because people don’t watch him and hide behind phrasing like “I haven’t watched him much”

No, most people probably just don’t watch him at all. Nobody signs up to watch ECHL hockey in their spare time.

It’s why I think posting his box score performance is meaningless because the person posting it and saying “not a great night” doesn’t know if a 5 goals on 20 shots performance is actually a bad night nor do they know if a 1 goal on 38 shots in a good night.

If this was a skater, there would be clips of every highlight play they made. Because it’s a goalie playing for a bottom tier pro affiliate in a league nobody cares about, there’s no actual scouting, just stat watching and empty comments.

 

[haulinbass]

I just think it's crazy to get wound up on "this is very concerning' when the last time this all happened we had a goalie who everyone was so certain was an ultra-star because he shined in the WJC and yet he played and was easily exploitable at the NHL level after people figured him out (Mrazek).

There is literally no reason to look at 19 year old Sebastian Cossa playing lots of professional hockey and see only "regressing". They're clearly working on things with him, which is why they're running him out in GR and in Toledo. I get not liking high drafted goalies... I just think it's incredibly worthless to be looking at a goalie's draft year and first year or two after and somehow ascribing anything to it... particularly when the goalie is transitioning from a team with lots of talent and good structure to a team that admittedly is loosey-goosey.

Right now, you're looking for signs that he's gonna fail because you went in pre-disposed to not like the pick because you don't like any high drafted goalie or you wanted a different guy.

E: You can't say "I know goalies are voodoo" and also handwring like this. Development for goalies is not linear and if you can accept that, you shouldn't be looking at every single game saying "Oh no, the sky is falling and he gave up 5 goals on 12 shots". Goalies in literally every sense of the word are different cats than the rest of the team.

Sure seems like your responding directly to me, but maybe not. Never said the sky is falling. I really don't care, why would I hope he doesn't pan out. I care about our center depth panning out, particularly care about Kasper, Edvinsson, Berggren, Soderblom. Cossa doesn't make or break our future for me. If he works out, great I'll take him all day long. If he doesn't, I'm not worried about the G position as this time. I'm not much of a goalie guy, I don't project goalie prospects. I'm not sure anyone on this planet is particularly great at projecting 18-21 year old goalies (even our pro scouts). I understand the arguement your trying to make in that he's playing pro hockey and the expected slow development of goalies, I'm not stupid. All I said is there is definitely reason for concern. I don't disagree with your concept, I actually agree with it. Cossa could end up just fine considering the points you put on the table. All of which I was aware of. Still, there is certainly reason to have concern. That's where I'm at, I'm not impressed but know dang well a lot can change especially with goalies in 2-4 years. I'm not ruling Cossa out or penciling him into our future. I forget who all said what, but guys like Draper, etc have even commented on how Cossa is struggling the last two seasons and that they hope to see him gain some confidents. Nobody bashed him, but clearly indicated some concern. They expected him to be doing a little better. But they also know that its not the end of the world and can change. I don't have any resentment towards the draft pick used to select him. I know how unlikely it is at 15 OA to land a player that truely moves the needle for a team. What I care about is 10-12 and down. Those are the picks you have to figure out how to hit on. The rest you do your best and cross your fingers. There are very few players per draft that become impact players. Had we spent a 6th overall pick on a goalie, I would have some ill feelings towards the pick. Really does not at all break my heart at 15 one bit. Certainly I would have tossed another dart towards a center or defencemen, not a big deal though.

Another thing I want to note. Is that I tend to support and stick with our developing young guys as long as anyone around here. Reminding those who don't of reality and to have paitence. So to assume I'm just all about Cossa hating isn't fair. Again, my stance still is that its completely reasonable to have "concern" on what Cossa has shown between his variety of opportunities since being drafted. I won't be surprised one bit if you end up completely right. Your not wrong and either am I. I'm not involving myself in projecting a goalie prospect period.

Anyway, Cossa sounds like a house hold name. I think that's how the scouts base their goalie projections anyways

 

[Retire91]

I am going to hold out I was early on the Mrazek bandwagon and I was late off it. These guys are young yeah its not a good sign but its not over. Mrazek really busted out hopefully Cossa won't.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

It doesn't look great right now, but give it time. Guy looked pretty good not that long ago at prospect camp and preseason. Add in goalie numbers everywhere are down and this makes some sense.

 

[lidstromiscool]

I am going to hold out I was early on the Mrazek bandwagon and I was late off it. These guys are young yeah its not a good sign but its not over. Mrazek really busted out hopefully Cossa won't.

Mrazek developed into a pretty solid starter for a few years, and is a regular NHL goalie. If Cossa has the same career, thats a major W at this point.

Understand that this isn’t directed at you particularly, but you are being used to make a generalization.

The reason is because people don’t watch him and hide behind phrasing like “I haven’t watched him much”

No, most people probably just don’t watch him at all. Nobody signs up to watch ECHL hockey in their spare time.

It’s why I think posting his box score performance is meaningless because the person posting it and saying “not a great night” doesn’t know if a 5 goals on 20 shots performance is actually a bad night nor do they know if a 1 goal on 38 shots in a good night.

If this was a skater, there would be clips of every highlight play they made. Because it’s a goalie playing for a bottom tier pro affiliate in a league nobody cares about, there’s no actual scouting, just stat watching and empty comments.

The bolded is 100% false. Take a look for yourself, here are the 5 he let in last night.

 

[Filppula]

Mrazek developed into a pretty solid starter for a few years, and is a regular NHL goalie. If Cossa has the same career, thats a major W at this point.


The bolded is 100% false. Take a look for yourself, here are the 5 he let in last night.
View attachment 618548

Woof.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Mrazek developed into a pretty solid starter for a few years, and is a regular NHL goalie. If Cossa has the same career, thats a major W at this point.


The bolded is 100% false. Take a look for yourself, here are the 5 he let in last night.
View attachment 618548

I’ve already seen all the goals. I went and watched them all on Twitter when this past game became a talking point.

And it’s not false. Most people aren’t watching him at all. Most people are commenting blindly.

You can look through the thread. There’s very little video of him playing and a lot of people making comments like “is it time to worry?” because most people don’t f***ing watch him. I’m not even saying that Cossa is 100% fine, I’m saying most people complain because they want to complain.

 

[Oddbob]

This season means nothing in the grand scheme of whether he is or isn't an NHL goalie. He isn't the first goalie to have bad stats at a lower level, and he won't be the last. Point is, calm down, every goalie takes time! There is a reason most goalies aren't NHL starters until 24-25 and beyond, and this kid is what 20 years old? Doesn't mean I am excited by his stats, but they are meaningless in his first pro season. He could be 25-0 with 25 shutouts, and end up being a brutal NHL goalie.

 

[Henkka]

One interesting note is, how Yzerman will trust goalies, who have had early experience at pro leagues.

Ville Husso is 8 years older than Cossa.

Where was Ville Husso 8 years ago?

Playing his 2nd season as a pro for HIFK Helsinki in Finland. Top4 team of Finnish league on that time. He was second year veteran, with already 2nd season with starter amount of games 41-41-39 Liiga-games on his 1-2-3 pro season, per 60 maximum of Liiga regular season = 2/3 share.

He played these years as HIFK stater

2013-14, 19-year-old, 41 games (at this season he won U20 WJC Gold as a backup for Juuse Saros)
2014-15, 20-year-old, 41 games (at this season he was U20 WJC starter for Finland, instead of Saros, but team lost at quarterfinal)
2015-16, 21-year-old, 39 games + 10 playoff games (lost Championship final for Tappara Tampere)

Then he kind of was forgotten to St. Louis Blues farm system.

2016-17, 22-year-old, split season at AHL and ECHL, because Blues didn't have a farm team affiliate. He was worse at ECHL, than he was at AHL.
2017-18, 23-year-old, AHL season for new Blues affiliate, San Antonio Rampage. Gets called up for Team Finland backup for WHC.
2018-19, 24-year old, AHL season. (Blues Stanley Cup season)

At 2018-19, Blues were struggling at NHL side with their goaltenders (Jake Allen and Chad Johnson), and they were considering giving Husso a chance at NHL side. But, at worst possible time, Husso got hand injury, I've seen this story from a live hockey document in Finnish. They were making a video of his life at San Antonio.
-Thanks to that injury, Blues will call up Jordan Binnington instead of Husso.

Rest is history. Binnington will turn the Blues season around, will get them to playoffs after huge final push and will win 16 games as first rookie goalie ever at Stanley Cup playoffs.

Husso's hand injury will affect on him for the rest of the season, and he will have his worst career sv% season at pro level for 2018-19. Husso is struggling and others at Blues organization are celebrating the Cup.

At 2019-20 AHL season, he'll get back to form. Still waiting for his NHL chance. Blues will sign winner Binnington multi-year, who is already starting to regress from his greatest form.

Corona happens. Season sopped. 2 years will pass by without NHL-callup for Husso.

Again, at 2021, there's a new NHL-season. Husso will get his taste at NHL level, finally, as Binnington's backup. Season doesn't go well, Binnington plays better.

At 2021-22 season, Binning starts to struggle. Husso takes the starting job and will find another level. Husso plays better regular season overall than Bonnington, and both of the tandem have their ups and downs. Husso fails at the playoffs, Binnington shines again at the playoffs. Still can't beat Colorado.

Husso is UFA. Yzerman will trade for him to secure, he will sign.

At season 2022-23, he is our starter. And I think we have seen the greatest possible Husso on last game, when he did outplay Vasilevskiy. Both had superior efforts, but Husso was better. That's insane.

I started my post with a comment "how Yzerman trusts goalies with pro exprience". That was the same with Vasilevskiy. He was already at very young age at men's level at KHL. Husso was that at Liiga.

And with this ECHL thing, he definitely wants same for Cossa, for same reasons. Put the kid on a tough place, so he has to face some adversity, develop, face problems again, develop. Not get anything easy. Because at NHL nothing is easy. And you could need that 8-year exprience from lower pro-levels, like Husso, before you are ready for the starting job at NHL.

 

[norrisnick]

I would just like to point out for the record that there is a world of difference between good play/experience in a pro league at a young age and any play/experience in a pro league at a young age, let alone bad play/experience in a pro league at a young age. Having early pro success is a much different foundation than being run over by the struggle bus.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Nice bounceback game for Cossa. 29/30 saves.

 

[Retire91]

Mrazek developed into a pretty solid starter for a few years, and is a regular NHL goalie. If Cossa has the same career, thats a major W at this point.


The bolded is 100% false. Take a look for yourself, here are the 5 he let in last night.
View attachment 618548

I would be with you if he was older. He's only 20 years old. A lot of goalies aren't ready for the NHL until 23-24. It's not something you want to see from a first round pick but its also possible to hit some adversity in development. This is a pretty small sample sized to make a permanent conclusion.

 

[Gniwder]

I would be with you if he was older. He's only 20 years old. A lot of goalies aren't ready for the NHL until 23-24. It's not something you want to see from a first round pick but its also possible to hit some adversity in development. This is a pretty small sample sized to make a permanent conclusion.

Goalies are hard to predict, look at Kolzig's stats early in his career. Yet somehow he managed to take the Caps to the finals (where they got swept by the WIngs, lol)

Olaf Kolzig Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Statistics and Records of Olaf Kolzig, a hockey player and coach from Johannesburg, South Africa born Apr 6 1970 who was active from 1987 to 2009.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[lidstromiscool]

I would be with you if he was older. He's only 20 years old. A lot of goalies aren't ready for the NHL until 23-24. It's not something you want to see from a first round pick but its also possible to hit some adversity in development. This is a pretty small sample sized to make a permanent conclusion.

I'm not writing him off at all, I'm just pointing out the fact that he has struggled mightily in his D+2 season which is concerning. Wouldn't surprise me if he's a completely different goalie in three years. I believe that me and a few other posters are also concerned that the flashes of brilliance have been few and far between.

 

[SCD]

Nice bounceback game for Cossa. 29/30 saves.

Stop, that does not fit the narrative!

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

0.889 in the Coast is absolutely dreadful for any goalie, let alone one who was drafted int he middle of the first round. There's lots of time here, and goalies usually take longer, but this is very concerning.

0.889 in the ECHL.....

Where does that rank in the league right now?

 

[Henkka]

Man it would be lovely to get a good backup.

Hellberg has really shined vs. other Griffins goalies.

 

[RedWingzz]

Where does that rank in the league right now?

No clue?

Likely last? Or near the bottom?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

No clue?

Likely last? Or near the bottom?

Looks like it’s about the lower end of average.

Statistics

I say this as someone that panned Cossa over Wallstedt: It’s not the end of the world, and be patient.

I’m hoping Detroit can get Cossa to the SHL next season because it’s a better quality league than the ECHL and AHL, and Detroit has a great staff over there to work with him. Maybe Detroit can help an SHL club poach a world famous Finnish goalie coach over there as well?

 

[HoweFan]

Another good game in Toledo. Cossa 21 of 22. Sebrango a goal. Tut got two assists. 4-1 win.

 

[heyfolks]

I understand the why now, but never would have predicted a first round pick would start their pro career in Toledo.

 

[Mister Ed]

In his last 6 games (super small sample size, I know) Cossa is 4-2, has saved 120 out of 134 shots and is sporting a .868 SV% ( 925 SV% if you take out that one stinker where he let in 7 goals) as one of the youngest players in the league at 20 years old.

Goalie development is not linear, he's getting max reps right now, which is what is important according to Yzerman.

 

[SirloinUB]

Mrazek developed into a pretty solid starter for a few years, and is a regular NHL goalie. If Cossa has the same career, thats a major W at this point.


The bolded is 100% false. Take a look for yourself, here are the 5 he let in last night.
View attachment 618548

That defense in front of Cossa was horrible. My god. If that is the structure he is typically playing within he'd be better off in the WHL.

 

[Henkka]

That defense in front of Cossa was horrible. My god. If that is the structure he is typically playing within he'd be better off in the WHL.

It's still EXACTLY what Yzerman will want.

Play behind a bad defence, so It's YOU who should stand on your head.

That's the situation where he did want to put him.

Where does easy WHL wins with easy workload develop him? It's staying in the comfort zone. Guaranteed stagnant development. It's already seen in many places with many players.

Uncomfort zone will push you being better, and that's how development will happen.

 

[Mister Ed]

The plan for next year is Grand Rapids, where Olkinuora and Brattstrom's contract are up, or is it up in the NHL to backup Husso?

For reference, Husso played 1 year split between the AHL and ECHL, then played 3 years in the AHL before playing with St Louis. To be fair, he had some pretty good goalies in Allen and Binnington to leapfrog, whereas in Detroit, it won't be as hard as it was for Husso.