OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Part IV - II

[LORDE]

This thread is a sobering reminder of how I wouldn’t survive a single conservation with some, face to face. Our similarities begin and end with Rangers.

For any Trump apologist, the history books will not be kind to you.

Wow... can't like this post enough.

 

[egelband]

Silly question maybe but here goes:

Why can’t kids go to school in the summer to make up some of this time? If the thought is this will pass by June why not give the kids a month and a half off now and then just bring them back then to finish there year and move on to the next grade?

They can and absolutely should. I’m my humble opinion.

 

[Ola]

Wow... can't like this post enough.

Nah, let’s keep it civil. Things are never as black and white in reality as we all get an urge to portray them in a politic discussion.

With that said, (a) I hope that politicians making, or abstains from making, decisions in conflict of dire warnings from experts of undesired consequences really should be held accountable because ultimately it’s just about taking dumb shortcuts often motivated by selfishness, (b) I don’t at all like — the extent — it’s deemed OK if not even appreciated to “rewrite” the history.

If the above continues or get worse — earth will become a worse place to live on in 20 years. It’s not good at all. People that does it will win political positions short term, and if they are not held accountable when it back fires we it will certainly continue and only get worse. Why wouldn’t it?

 

[Synergy27]

This thread is a sobering reminder of how I wouldn’t survive a single conservation with some, face to face. Our similarities begin and end with Rangers.

For any Trump apologist, the history books will not be kind to you.

While I unfortunately feel somewhat the same, if this is indeed true, it’s proof that we are doomed as a society. After 9/11 it at least felt like we were all in this together. Were we actually? I don’t know, but I don’t remember ever feeling the same kinship with strangers as I did in its crushingly surreal aftermath.

This disaster is orders of magnitude worse. And while the solution is physical distancing, it should actually be bringing us together in a figurative sense as we assess the shocking lack of preparedness the richest nation in the world brought to the table. It should be bringing us together to conduct an autopsy on our institutions and leadership as a whole, so we can identify root causes and do our best to ensure that this never happens again.

But here we are - mucking thru an overly politicized rhetorical hellscape, still hating each other because we’ve dug into bunkers created by ideological profiteers on both ends of the political spectrum. We’re going to end up having sat here arguing on the internet for months while the same people who failed us are given free reign to further erode our liberties, further enrich their donors, do nothing about preparedness for the next thing, and in general keep piling on to the completely f***ed dystopia the next generations are going to inherit.

We suck.

 

[Ola]

Politicians are proxies of the people. It’s of course not unusual for them to face a decision where (a) one option is good for the people but could be unpopular because it’s hard and complicated to describe and (b) another option is bad for the people but would be (more) popular.

We just must have a climate in which a politician can resolve on (a) more often. And this is not even bringing in the dimension of “special interest” that can benefit from “(b)” at an unreasonable cost for the rest of us.

 

[NYSPORTS]

My post was in direct response to "Any other POTUS would've done the same" which is absolutely FALSE.

The bodies pile up because he traded lives for the DOW

ok, you’re running the country. Give us your plan.

let’s make sure the facts aren’t dismissed in this plan though. In no particular order:

- the CDC forecasted between 2-20 million people being hospitalized despite less than a million hospital beds nationwide.
- Despite any threat, too many people (likely millions) still can’t grasp the concept of social distancing
- Test or no test, millions are infected with this virus yet show no symptoms
- from the lowest unemployment to the highest, solve the problem. Do you give the people hope or tell them we’re not going back to work for a year?
- you have no vaccine


You are now the President. Please share your plan of action. Anybody chime in. Keep in mind, the “more testing” crew which praised tiny Singapore, etc guess what? Singapore numbers are quickly rising.

Let’s hear the master plans

 

[RangerBlues]

While I unfortunately feel somewhat the same, if this is indeed true, it’s proof that we are doomed as a society. After 9/11 it at least felt like we were all in this together. Were we actually? I don’t know, but I don’t remember ever feeling the same kinship with strangers as I did in its crushingly surreal aftermath.

This disaster is orders of magnitude worse. And while the solution is physical distancing, it should actually be bringing us together in a figurative sense as we assess the shocking lack of preparedness the richest nation in the world brought to the table. It should be bringing us together to conduct an autopsy on our institutions and leadership as a whole, so we can identify root causes and do our best to ensure that this never happens again.

But here we are - mucking thru an overly politicized rhetorical hellscape, still hating each other because we’ve dug into bunkers created by ideological profiteers on both ends of the political spectrum. We’re going to end up having sat here arguing on the internet for months while the same people who failed us are given free reign to further erode our liberties, further enrich their donors, do nothing about preparedness for the next thing, and in general keep piling on to the completely f***ed dystopia the next generations are going to inherit.

We suck.

We?

 

[Synergy27]

Politicians are proxies of the people. It’s of course not unusual for them to face a decision where (a) one option is good for the people but could be unpopular because it’s hard and complicated to describe and (b) another option is bad for the people but would be (more) popular.

We just must have a climate in which a politician can resolve on (a) more often. And this is not even bringing in the dimension of “special interest” that can benefit from “(b)” at an unreasonable cost for the rest of us.

They might still be in Sweden. They for the most part aren’t proxies for the people in America anymore, and haven’t been for awhile. They are a self licking ice cream cone of upper class lawyers and business people hell bent on maintaining the status quo that allowed them to attain power to begin with.

 

[Crease]

ok, you’re running the country. Give us your plan.

let’s make sure the facts aren’t dismissed in this plan though. In no particular order:

- the CDC forecasted between 2-20 million people being hospitalized despite less than a million hospital beds nationwide.
- Despite any threat, too many people (likely millions) still can’t grasp the concept of social distancing
- Test or no test, millions are infected with this virus yet show no symptoms
- from the lowest unemployment to the highest, solve the problem. Do you give the people hope or tell them we’re not going back to work for a year?
- you have no vaccine

You are now the President. Please share your plan of action. Anybody chime in. Keep in mind, the “more testing” crew which praised tiny Singapore, etc guess what? Singapore numbers are quickly rising.

Let’s hear the master plans

A couple of things that have bothered me recently:

• The President signing into law the Congressionally-approved CARES Act, then line-item vetoing certain provisions due to "constitutional concerns" without going to the courts for a ruling.

• Removing Glenn Fine as Chair of the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee without meaningful explanation, one week after the bipartisan Council of Inspector Generals tapped him for the role. Fine served as IG in various capacities for both Democratic and Republican administrations since 2000 and is well-regarded. I have still not seen any explanation for Fine's removal other than simply that it's within the President's power to remove him from his position as IG of the Defense Department, which now makes him ineligible for the role. That's not a satisfactory explanation for me, I'm sorry.

 

[eco's bones]

While I unfortunately feel somewhat the same, if this is indeed true, it’s proof that we are doomed as a society. After 9/11 it at least felt like we were all in this together. Were we actually? I don’t know, but I don’t remember ever feeling the same kinship with strangers as I did in its crushingly surreal aftermath.

This disaster is orders of magnitude worse. And while the solution is physical distancing, it should actually be bringing us together in a figurative sense as we assess the shocking lack of preparedness the richest nation in the world brought to the table. It should be bringing us together to conduct an autopsy on our institutions and leadership as a whole, so we can identify root causes and do our best to ensure that this never happens again.

But here we are - mucking thru an overly politicized rhetorical hellscape, still hating each other because we’ve dug into bunkers created by ideological profiteers on both ends of the political spectrum. We’re going to end up having sat here arguing on the internet for months while the same people who failed us are given free reign to further erode our liberties, further enrich their donors, do nothing about preparedness for the next thing, and in general keep piling on to the completely f***ed dystopia the next generations are going to inherit.

We suck.

Part of the issue here really though is people are too swept away with political figures. They sometimes make them into God-like figures and they're on the Trump team and he can almost do no wrong and everyone is picking on him or they're on the Obama team who was so young and articulate when he became POTUS and it's almost like a fairy tale story that's grown around him. Trump is deeply flawed--no mistake and I don't think he's risen well to this challenge but Obama had a bunch of flaws himself and his presidency didn't really accomplish much at all that truly benefited the population. So if we're just careening back and forth between these two--no we're not going to get anywhere.

We need to get away from the cult of personality and find consensus for the things we need and the things we want. The easiest things to accomplish should be the ones that are the most shared goals. One of those is health care but it's proven too difficult and it mainly comes down to those with real political clout from both major parties don't want it--doing something positive cuts into big donor campaign cash flow. So politicians find ways to get around it and one of the ways was the deeply flawed Obamacare. Since gaining the presidency Trump has tried to both abolish Obamacare and put his own face on it. If anything this pandemic just cuts to the chase again of going all the way for M4A because it is a real need and the thing is this might not be the last pandemic in our lifetime so we need to treat this like a wake up call or we might respond next time the same way again.

Once this is all over though things are going to change in some way. Wealth distribution is going to be very important because all the wealth going to the top 1% was bad enough beforehand--now it's really not going to be doable unless we want a long term depression. We're going to need to restructure some things so that we reach into more corners. There are some benefits----the planet breathes better with less consumption of certain natural resources. We also have had a time out to value things in ways maybe we hadn't before. I think some people might even see their work as just work now--not something that defines necessarily who they are or not important enough to risk their lives over.

 

[NYSPORTS]

A couple of things that have bothered me recently:

• The President signing into law the Congressionally-approved CARES Act, then line-item vetoing certain provisions due to "constitutional concerns" without going to the courts for a ruling.

• Removing Glenn Fine as Chair of the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee without meaningful explanation, one week after the bipartisan Council of Inspector Generals tapped him for the role. Fine served as IG in various capacities for both Democratic and Republican administrations since 2000 and is well-regarded. I have still not seen any explanation for Fine's removal other than simply that it's within the President's power to remove him from his position as IG of the Defense Department, which now makes him ineligible for the role. That's not a satisfactory explanation for me, I'm sorry.

ok, that’s a different take than what i was expecting yet

- the CARES act is a tough one. It’s hard for lenders at a snap to judgement and determine which notes get rewritten, who qualifies, who doesn’t, how long, etc. Deferring payments rewrites notes. And who determines who can pay and who cannot at the snap of a finger?

- Glenn Fine along with many are being assigned different assignments. Agree or not, the GP cannot be made aware of why each and every move is made. Like it or not, good or bad move, i’m not sure anybody can draw a conclusion at this point.

Thanks for chiming in though. Be safe

 

[LORDE]

ok, you’re running the country. Give us your plan.

let’s make sure the facts aren’t dismissed in this plan though. In no particular order:

- the CDC forecasted between 2-20 million people being hospitalized despite less than a million hospital beds nationwide.
- Despite any threat, too many people (likely millions) still can’t grasp the concept of social distancing
- Test or no test, millions are infected with this virus yet show no symptoms
- from the lowest unemployment to the highest, solve the problem. Do you give the people hope or tell them we’re not going back to work for a year?
- you have no vaccine


You are now the President. Please share your plan of action. Anybody chime in. Keep in mind, the “more testing” crew which praised tiny Singapore, etc guess what? Singapore numbers are quickly rising.

Let’s hear the master plans

OK... here's my shot:

1) I would've READ the memos and intelligence reports instead of watching TV and playing golf
2) I would've asked the scientists and experts their opinions since I am NOT a scientist or an expert in this field or any other field for that matter
3) I would've then had discussions with my cabinet members & specific industry leaders on possible/potential scenarios and courses of action in those scenarios
4) I would've began the preparation for this virus no matter how big or small the pandemic would be, since at that point it was impossible to tell... this would involve stepping up the acquisition and production of supplies, certain medical items like masks and ventilators and any drugs, treatments and TESTING.
5) Implemented a plan of social distancing sooner

In a nutshell I would've heeded science as believed it as a fact & the experts as a valuable asset as opposed to using my own guesses and hunches as a means to run this country.

 

[NYSPORTS]

OK... here's my shot:

1) I would've READ the memos and intelligence reports instead of watching TV and playing golf
2) I would've asked the scientists and experts their opinions since I am NOT a scientist or an expert in this field or any other field for that matter
3) I would've then had discussions with my cabinet members & specific industry leaders on possible/potential scenarios and courses of action in those scenarios
4) I would've began the preparation for this virus no matter how big or small the pandemic would be, since at that point it was impossible to tell... this would involve stepping up the acquisition and production of supplies, certain medical items like masks and ventilators and any drugs, treatments and TESTING.
5) Implemented a plan of social distancing sooner

In a nutshell I would've heeded science as believed it as a fact & the experts as a valuable asset as opposed to using my own guesses and hunches as a means to run this country.

In a nutshell, 1-3 is so subjective as it just as easy to say he did read memos and did speak with experts. That’s all speculation. Don’t watch TV and speak to people? Even the CDC missed a lot snd everybody is still learning. Nobody has an answer including the “scientists, biologists, etc”. Ask them what we do? They say we need a vaccine. Meanwhile they claim a few drugs including the malaria drug shows promise so the Pres. makes it available. Despite everybody saying “don’t talk about it”, guess what? All the hospitals are using it.

4 and I don’t get. There have been plenty of ventilators. Governors asked for more ventilators based on the number projected from the CDC.

5 - sry, but 5 is laughable. Millions are still not exercising social distancing.

thanks for contributing. Respectfully, people don’t like him so they come up with speculation yet really can’t be specific as to how they would do things differently. All these theories keep getting shot down in time by specifics (including the fickle media time and time again)

The whole world is trying to figure this out.

 

[LORDE]

In a nutshell, 1-3 is so subjective as it just as easy to say he did read memos and did speak with experts. That’s all speculation. Don’t watch TV and speak to people? Even the CDC missed a lot snd everybody is still learning. Nobody has an answer including the “scientists, biologists, etc”. Ask them what we do? They say we need a vaccine. Meanwhile they claim a few drugs including the malaria drug shows promise so the Pres. makes it available. Despite everybody saying “don’t talk about it”, guess what? All the hospitals are using it.

4 and I don’t get. There have been plenty of ventilators. Governors asked for more ventilators based on the number projected from the CDC.

5 - sry, but 5 is laughable. Millions are still not exercising social distancing.

thanks for contributing. Respectfully, people don’t like him so they come up with speculation yet really can’t be specific as to how they would do things differently. All these theories keep getting shot down in time by specifics (including the fickle media time and time again)

The whole world is trying to figure this out.

He said he didn’t read the memos! It isn’t subjective. I saw the video and heard the question AND his answer.

Credible intelligence was ignored outright. Now he’s trying to rewrite history by saying he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did. I seem to remember him waving his hand saying it’s under control and will just go away like a miracle.

Well, which is it?

We needed leadership not a “cheerleader” and again, ANY other POTUS would’ve handled this differently.
Including in your hypothetical where I am because unlike some, I am smart enough to know that I don’t know shit. Especially about this virus.

If I were in charge of hundreds of millions of lives I wouldn’t be using my hunches to make decisions about their lives. I’d listen to the experts.

 

[haohmaru]

Fauci, the "expert of experts", was saying in February that this wasn't a big deal.

The bottom line here is that half, or more, of the world wasn't prepared for this and the United States isn't any smarter than the other 180+ countries that have cases. It's unprecedented. All of this Monday Morning Quarterbacking isn't doing anyone any good.

 

[haohmaru]

Just for reference, February 17th, from a USA Today Article:

Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."
"We have more kids dying of flu this year at this time than in the last decade or more," he said. "At the same time people are worrying about going to a Chinese restaurant. The threat is (we have) a pretty bad influenza season, particularly dangerous for our children."
Fauci offered advice for people who want to protect against the "real and present danger" of seasonal flu, which also would protect against the hypothetical danger of coronavirus.
"Wash your hands as frequently as you can. Stay away from crowded places where people are coughing and sneezing. If in fact you are coughing and sneezing, cover your mouth," he says.
"You know, all the things that we say each year."

Criticize Trump all you want. Just don't forget to criticize everyone else that got this wrong. Which is just about everyone. From the experts, to the Republicans, to the Democrats, to other countries, and on and on and on. Start with China. That's where we should ALL be looking for answers.

 

[Crease]

A couple of things that have bothered me recently:

• The President signing into law the Congressionally-approved CARES Act, then line-item vetoing certain provisions due to "constitutional concerns" without going to the courts for a ruling.

• Removing Glenn Fine as Chair of the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee without meaningful explanation, one week after the bipartisan Council of Inspector Generals tapped him for the role. Fine served as IG in various capacities for both Democratic and Republican administrations since 2000 and is well-regarded. I have still not seen any explanation for Fine's removal other than simply that it's within the President's power to remove him from his position as IG of the Defense Department, which now makes him ineligible for the role. That's not a satisfactory explanation for me, I'm sorry.

ok, that’s a different take than what i was expecting yet

- the CARES act is a tough one. It’s hard for lenders at a snap to judgement and determine which notes get rewritten, who qualifies, who doesn’t, how long, etc. Deferring payments rewrites notes. And who determines who can pay and who cannot at the snap of a finger?

- Glenn Fine along with many are being assigned different assignments. Agree or not, the GP cannot be made aware of why each and every move is made. Like it or not, good or bad move, i’m not sure anybody can draw a conclusion at this point.

Thanks for chiming in though. Be safe

Your responses don't alleviate my discomfort and here's why:

• Line-item vetoes are unconstitutional. Full stop. That is black letter constitutional law. If the President has issue with Congressionally-approved legislation (in this case the CARES Act passed by a Republican Senate and Democratic House), his option is to veto the entire thing, explain why, and ask Congress to pass a different version. Congress can then do so or override his veto. If the President still has issue, he can then seek judicial determination that the legislation is unconstitutional. Your response seems to suggest that it is okay for the President to bypass Congressional and Judicial powers if the end justifies the means. I vehemently disagree with that. Moreover, the President's issues with the CARES Act do not appear to be the same issues you list. Per the official White House statement on March 27, the President's problem is that several provisions of the CARES Act establish oversight chairs or require executive branch members to consult with or report to Congress in the implementation of the law. While I appreciate the "separation of powers" concerns that the President is raising, the solution isn't for the President to himself actually violate separation of powers by undertaking a line-item veto.

• I am not asking the President to make me aware of why "each and every move" is made. I do think this particular move--removing an independent watchdog from direct oversight responsibilities--warrants public explanation, and many people have asked for one. I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I fail to see why you're okay with the lack of transparency. If the truth is embarrassing to Fine, so be it. If Fine has an actual conflict of interest, so be it.

 

[Fireonk]

5 - sry, but 5 is laughable. Millions are still not exercising social distancing.

So let me understand. You have advocated yourself for social distancing multiple times. The social distancing is obviously helping and has led to us stopping the peak where it is instead of getting it worse. But suggesting we have should have done it sooner is laughable?

I don't even blame Trump for a lot of that, because that was mostly on the governors and mayors, but I don't see how that wouldn't have helped if done sooner. There will always be idiots who disregard anything the government says or does, doesn't mean that it wouldn't have worked to some degree.

 

[NYSPORTS]

He said he didn’t read the memos! It isn’t subjective. I saw the video and heard the question AND his answer.

Credible intelligence was ignored outright. Now he’s trying to rewrite history by saying he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did. I seem to remember him waving his hand saying it’s under control and will just go away like a miracle.

Well, which is it?

We needed leadership not a “cheerleader” and again, ANY other POTUS would’ve handled this differently.
Including in your hypothetical where I am because unlike some, I am smart enough to know that I don’t know shit. Especially about this virus.

If I were in charge of hundreds of millions of lives I wouldn’t be using my hunches to make decisions about their lives. I’d listen to the experts.

that’s all subjective and if you were in charge of millions of lives you would be as wrong as the experts b/c they were all wrong and are all still learning.

 

[NYSPORTS]

So let me understand. You have advocated yourself for social distancing multiple times. The social distancing is obviously helping and has led to us stopping the peak where it is instead of getting it worse. But suggesting we have should have done it sooner is laughable?

I don't even blame Trump for a lot of that, because that was mostly on the governors and mayors, but I don't see how that wouldn't have helped if done sooner. There will always be idiots who disregard anything the government says or does, doesn't mean that it wouldn't have worked to some degree.

tell me about Singapore again.

 

[Fireonk]

Fauci, the "expert of experts", was saying in February that this wasn't a big deal.

The bottom line here is that half, or more, of the world wasn't prepared for this and the United States isn't any smarter than the other 180+ countries that have cases. It's unprecedented. All of this Monday Morning Quarterbacking isn't doing anyone any good.

Just for reference, February 17th, from a USA Today Article:

Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."
"We have more kids dying of flu this year at this time than in the last decade or more," he said. "At the same time people are worrying about going to a Chinese restaurant. The threat is (we have) a pretty bad influenza season, particularly dangerous for our children."
Fauci offered advice for people who want to protect against the "real and present danger" of seasonal flu, which also would protect against the hypothetical danger of coronavirus.
"Wash your hands as frequently as you can. Stay away from crowded places where people are coughing and sneezing. If in fact you are coughing and sneezing, cover your mouth," he says.
"You know, all the things that we say each year."

Criticize Trump all you want. Just don't forget to criticize everyone else that got this wrong. Which is just about everyone. From the experts, to the Republicans, to the Democrats, to other countries, and on and on and on. Start with China. That's where we should ALL be looking for answers.

And the difference, and it is a big one, is that Fauci constantly gave qualifiers like there wasn't a concern "right now" or added things like but "it could change." Again, no one pointing fingers at Trump is saying he could have stopped this. The most powerful person in the country is getting fingers pointed at him because there were certain precautions he could have taken and didn't because he didn't seem that worried by it. If Trump was saying he wasn't concerned by this publicly but putting in some safety nets in the background he certainly wouldn't be getting attacked by myself.

That is part of the job. And yet again I will point out that almost every single person I have seen here who has called out Trump has also agreed that he isn't the only person who has some blame here.

Absolutely crazy to me how if you blame him for anything it is almost taken like a personal attack by the people who voted for him/support him. You can still support him and his policies if you want and acknowledge he might not have done the best job here. Again, we will be one of the 10 worst countries hit in terms of deaths per population and we got the first wave later than others.

 

[Hire Sather]

Silly question maybe but here goes:

Why can’t kids go to school in the summer to make up some of this time? If the thought is this will pass by June why not give the kids a month and a half off now and then just bring them back then to finish there year and move on to the next grade?

Why would they? They are doing online learning now, aren't they?

 

[Fireonk]

tell me about Singapore again.

I am not sure Ive ever brought up Singapore but if you'd like I guess we can take a look? 433 cases and 1 death per million population. US 1662 and 65. What exactly is your point here?

 

[NYSPORTS]

Your responses don't alleviate my discomfort and here's why:

• Line-item vetoes are unconstitutional. Full stop. That is black letter constitutional law. If the President has issue with Congressionally-approved legislation (in this case the CARES Act passed by a Republican Senate and Democratic House), his option is to veto the entire thing, explain why, and ask Congress to pass a different version. Congress can then do so or override his veto. If the President still has issue, he can then seek judicial determination that the legislation is unconstitutional. Your response seems to suggest that it is okay for the President to bypass Congressional and Judicial powers if the end justifies the means. I vehemently disagree with that. Moreover, the President's issues with the CARES Act do not appear to be same the issues you list. Per the official White House statement on March 27, the President's problem is that several provisions of the CARES Act establish oversight chairs or require executive branch members to consult with or report to Congress in the implementation of the law. While I appreciate the "separation of powers" concerns that the President is raising, the solution isn't for the President to himself actually violate separation of powers by undertaking a line-item veto.

• I am not asking the President to make me aware of why "each and every move" is made. I do think this particular move--removing an independent watchdog from direct oversight responsibilities--warrants public explanation, and many people have asked for one. I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I fail to see why you're okay with the lack of transparency. If the truth is embarrassing to Fine, so be it. If Fine has an actual conflict of interest, so be it.

- ok, so you’re more upset at the action rather the content. Ok

- as far as transparency. I think it’s you’re right to want it. Respectfully, every message, decision, etc has so overly ridiculed and littered with fake news agendas for years we’re beyond the boy who cried wolf. Any message gets botched to fit a narrative so I don’t even care anymore. So many self anointed experts on how to handle any situation, with the latest being the virus, prove to be more emotional than factual.

 

[haohmaru]

And the difference, and it is a big one, is that Fauci constantly gave qualifiers like there wasn't a concern "right now" or added things like but "it could change." Again, no one pointing fingers at Trump is saying he could have stopped this. The most powerful person in the country is getting fingers pointed at him because there were certain precautions he could have taken and didn't because he didn't seem that worried by it. If Trump was saying he wasn't concerned by this publicly but putting in some safety nets in the background he certainly wouldn't be getting attacked by myself.

That is part of the job. And yet again I will point out that almost every single person I have seen here who has called out Trump has also agreed that he isn't the only person who has some blame here.

Absolutely crazy to me how if you blame him for anything it is almost taken like a personal attack by the people who voted for him/support him. You can still support him and his policies if you want and acknowledge he might not have done the best job here. Again, we will be one of the 10 worst countries hit in terms of deaths per population and we got the first wave later than others.

I'm not a Trump guy, didn't vote for Trump, and don't like a lot of things about Trump. But, if Trump weren't "concerned" about it then he wouldn't have banned travel from China as early as he did. Or Europe. Criticize him all you want but AFTER Trump had already shut down travel from Wuhan, Cuomo was saying not to worry, NY is ready, DeBlasio was saying go to Broadway and use mass transit, Pelosi was saying go to Chinatown the food is great and there's nothing to see here, etc... These are all major leaders in their respective positions - a leading governor, the mayor the largest city in the United States, and the 3rd in line to the Presidency. I don't see them getting raked over the coals, I just see articles commending Cuomo on how well he's doing. It's ludicrous.

I don't know if you were addressing me (since you quoted me), but I don't take any of this personally. I just think that EVERYONE is culpable here and this constant finger pointing about who should known what and done what when is all in hindsight and we all know about hindsight given all of the arguments about our drafts. It's comical. Of course things could have been done better. Things we do in the coming weeks and months could've been done better. Everything ever done can probably be done better.

There should be more tolerance for an unprecedented event in human history. There's no playbook for this. Coronavirus costs lives. The wrecked economy will cost lives. It all costs.