Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part XII

[4thline]

Well said, but brace yourself for another Liberal win. This country is too far gone to vote for anyone else. We all know the reason the Conservatives will never get back in, the same reason Harper lost to Trudeau.

They let a hard-line (in party) minority with opinions the majority of Canadians disagree with have too much sway? Their leadership vote was largely decided by people that thought that Derek f***ing Sloan was a viable PM.

 

[ULF_55]

How is it purely political? I see it as practical.

He knows they aren't getting any of those vaccines before next year.

 

[ULF_55]

One of the beauties of science is that it changes as new facts come to light. As we learn more about the new variants (see what is happening in other countries, get results from lab experiments, etc.) we have to adjust our thinking. It is not fear mongering, it is being open minded and changing positions as fact change rather than sticking with one position in spite of the facts.

LIVE BLOG: Updating the Newfoundland and Labrador COVID-19 outbreak, Feb. 13; 26 new confirmed cases today | The Telegram

Earlier in the week, when we started this blog about the most recent COVID-19 outbreak, the lead-in noted things are progressing quickly, but even then, we couldn't have anticipated how quickly things can change. On Friday night, in the space of an hour, we learned the entire province was returning to Alert Level 5 after confirmation a highly-contagious strain of the virus had been spreading in the metro St. John's region, and that the provincial election, which had originally been set for today, was being changed drastically:
Today's statistics

26 new confirmed cases announced today, with one recovery (in Western Health region), giving the province 285 active cases.
There are no hospitalizations related to COVID-19
Breakdown of new cases by age:

• Under 20 — 9
• 20-39 — 2
• 40-49 — 9
• 60-69 — 3
• 70+ -— 3

 

[cbbb25]

One of the beauties of science is that it changes as new facts come to light. As we learn more about the new variants (see what is happening in other countries, get results from lab experiments, etc.) we have to adjust our thinking. It is not fear mongering, it is being open minded and changing positions as fact change rather than sticking with one position in spite of the facts.

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

 

[Pink Mist]

How is it purely political? I see it as practical.

It's purely political because Manitoba would recieve vaccines after Canada would.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

They let a hard-line (in party) minority with opinions the majority of Canadians disagree with have too much sway? Their leadership vote was largely decided by people that thought that Derek f***ing Sloan was a viable PM.

This is just false. Leslyn Lewis was runner up. You're repeating the media line. There's almost nothing "conservative" about this party these days. They would have been far left compared to the Chretien/Martin Libs. There are far more fringe activists in the LPC than Derek Sloan. This is a disappointing post to be honest. This is exactly what the Conservatives are up against every time. They are held to a far different standard than the Libs.

 

[4thline]

This is just false. Leslyn Lewis was runner up. You're repeating the media line. There's almost nothing "conservative" about this party these days. They would have been far left compared to the Chretien/Martin Libs. There are far more fringe activists in the LPC than Derek Sloan. This is a disappointing post to be honest. This is exactly what the Conservatives are up against every time. They are held to a far different standard than the Libs.

Nope. Peter McKay was runner up, who lead after the 1st round. O'Toole won by playing to the hardline social conservative vote. 14% of the voting card carrying members voted for Sloan. That's not media slant. That's a material portion of the party membership voting for a fundamentalist bigot. That attachment is what's holding them back.

McKay's comments about those views being a stinking albatross hanging around the neck of the party probably cost him the leadership - but they were right, and that albatross costs anyone that truly wants a government fiscally right of the LPC a chance at party that can deliver.

 

[Future]

Nope. Peter McKay was runner up, who lead after the 1st round. O'Toole won by playing to the hardline social conservative vote. 14% of the voting card carrying members voted for Sloan. That's not media slant. That's a material portion of the party membership voting for a fundamentalist bigot. That attachment is what's holding them back.

McKay's comments about those views being a stinking albatross hanging around the neck of the party probably cost him the leadership - but they were right, and that albatross costs anyone that truly wants a government fiscally right of the LPC a chance at party that can deliver.

I disagree heavily. Don’t want to get overly political in here, but the media often demonizes Conservatives based on their fringe but that same standard isn’t held against fringe far-leftists. The media arguably pretends as if harmful far-left views do not exist. It’s an unfortunate double standard.

Even looking at Cuomo in the states who is the Democratic left-leaning governor for New York. He received awards and the media praised his efforts containing the virus while absolutely ripping Florida’s response. Florida has had a fraction of the Covid deaths per capita compared to New York, but their governor is right-leaning Republican.

It is a rather interesting phenomena and just something that’s good to be aware of.

 

[colchar]

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

You consider 84,829 cases per million and 1335 death per million to be looking fine?!?!

Here in Ontario we have had 1933 cases per 100,000 people. In Florida they have had 8447 cases per 100,000 people. And you think they look fine?!?!

This isn't about any alleged societal collapse (you are the only person I've ever seen saying that), it is about people getting sick and dying and our healthcare system becoming overwhelmed which would have a knock-on effect for everyone else with any other kind of health issue.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

Got any proof of this claim? And why would 'Canadians' be petitioning the Ontario government? The Ontario government has no control over our borders, travel, etc. Those are federal issues, so if they were petitioning anybody it would be the federal government.

And even if any were trying to stay down there, it could well be because they are in line to get vaccinated there whereas up here it is a complete clusterf**k.

 

[colchar]

It's purely political because Manitoba would recieve vaccines after Canada would.

So you think the rest of the country would get them before Manitoba did?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Nope. Peter McKay was runner up, who lead after the 1st round. O'Toole won by playing to the hardline social conservative vote. 14% of the voting card carrying members voted for Sloan. That's not media slant. That's a material portion of the party membership voting for a fundamentalist bigot. That attachment is what's holding them back.

You're right. She was a close 3rd, 4 points behind MacKay on the 2nd ballot. Sloan was eliminated on the 1st ballot. Sloan was kicked out of the party and a large part of the caucus tried preventing him from running, not sure what more you're looking for than that. I find the views and/or actions of many Liberals and NDP members just as odious as Sloan's yet 2/3 of the country voted for these parties.

McKay's comments about those views being a stinking albatross hanging around the neck of the party probably cost him the leadership - but they were right, and that albatross costs anyone that truly wants a government fiscally right of the LPC a chance at party that can deliver.

And MacKay is the very definition of a Red Tory and came close to winning. O'Toole is running a Liberal-light platform. 85% of members voted for a couple of liberals or a female visible minority. Doesn't quite jive with the picture you were painting.

 

[Pink Mist]

So you think the rest of the country would get them before Manitoba did?

Yes. You think Manitoba is going to jump the line ahead of all the other countries (including Canada) who have purchased the vaccine ahead of them?

 

[KuleminFan41]

I disagree heavily. Don’t want to get overly political in here, but the media often demonizes Conservatives based on their fringe but that same standard isn’t held against fringe far-leftists. The media arguably pretends as if harmful far-left views do not exist. It’s an unfortunate double standard.

Even looking at Cuomo in the states who is the Democratic left-leaning governor for New York. He received awards and the media praised his efforts containing the virus while absolutely ripping Florida’s response. Florida has had a fraction of the Covid deaths per capita compared to New York, but their governor is right-leaning Republican.

It is a rather interesting phenomena and just something that’s good to be aware of.

Not only that but Cuomo actively put COVID patients in with long term care residents, which they even lied about and yet no one cares. It's insanity.

 

[IPS]

I disagree heavily. Don’t want to get overly political in here, but the media often demonizes Conservatives based on their fringe but that same standard isn’t held against fringe far-leftists. The media arguably pretends as if harmful far-left views do not exist. It’s an unfortunate double standard.

Even looking at Cuomo in the states who is the Democratic left-leaning governor for New York. He received awards and the media praised his efforts containing the virus while absolutely ripping Florida’s response. Florida has had a fraction of the Covid deaths per capita compared to New York, but their governor is right-leaning Republican.

It is a rather interesting phenomena and just something that’s good to be aware of.

Also see how the media painted the "activities" of Antifa vs the Proud Boys.

Antifa literally burned people's business to the ground and actively physically harmed people but the media completely painted the narrative as something else.

Unbelievable how thick people are not to see this...

 

[Nineteen67]

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

The southern states have great health care facilities and resources and are equipped handle a virus. Remember the original goal was to ensure the health care system was not overrun.

 

[Nineteen67]

Not only that but Cuomo actively put COVID patients in with long term care residents, which they even lied about and yet no one cares. It's insanity.

No, no, people care it’s just that media covers for him. They admitted they lied and didn’t disclose accurate data to the federal government for political reasons.

 

[Bluelines]

Seems to be a lot of partisan fear mongering going on in this thread , which is exactly what the party in power and the opposition want.

 

[KuleminFan41]

No, no, people care it’s just that media covers for him. They admitted they lied and didn’t disclose accurate data to the federal government for political reasons.

I honestly disagree, considering people were blaming the previous president for those very same deaths. Either way, Cuomo is a piece of shit

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Well said, but brace yourself for another Liberal win. This country is too far gone to vote for anyone else. We all know the reason the Conservatives will never get back in, the same reason Harper lost to Trudeau.

Not that Trudeau has been amazing, but the main reason he would probably win is because the other parties don't have any viable alternatives. I don't see enough people liking O'Toole, and people would vote for Trudeau again long before they would vote Singh. It's likely another minority government for the Liberals, but the NDP and Conservatives need better candidates if they want Trudeau out. It's not like the Democrats where they could have pretty much picked anyone and they would have beat Trump.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Why Canada is at the mercy of vaccine nationalism during the COVID pandemic | National Post


“Currently, Canada has two major manufacturing facilities for vaccines, a Sanofi Pasteur facility in Toronto and a GlaxoSmithKline facility in Ste. Foy, Quebec. But both facilities have existing contracts with little spare capacity and aren’t equipped to make the leading COVID-19 candidates.”

This is the problem in this country now. Too many people unwilling to dig deep and solve problems. I used to have an employee that would constantly tell me there was no solution to whatever problem she was working on. I would always say: "Do you think the client is just going to cancel their project because you can't find a solution?" Of course not. I.e., there's ALWAYS a solution if you feel like looking for it. We just spent $400B on Covid. Don't tell me there wasn't a way to repurpose those facilities listed above to produce coronavirus vaccines with a fraction of that money. And if they can do it now in the NRC facility, we could have started creating manufacturing capacity last May when the CanSino deal was announced. That was supposed to be made here as well.

A lot of people don't know the biggest single reason the Allies were able to beat the Nazis was industrial capacity (especially in the US) which was largely repurposed quickly for wartime use. Imagine if in 1941 some government bureaucrat had shrugged their shoulders and said "Sorry, Chrysler can't help manufacture tanks right now: they aren't set up for it and they have existing contracts to fulfill." 'Cause I have a feeling that's exactly what someone would say in this day and age.

Completely different scenario. It is not that there are literally no solutions. There are always solutions. However, viable solutions are another story, especially when Canada is not the only one who gets to determine the solution.

Canada lacked the facilities to even modify into a Covid-19 production facility when Covid started. Belgium, USA, UK, Australia, etc. had these facilities built, but just needed time (< 1 year) to modify them into potential Covid-19 vaccine use. For Canada to produce their own vaccines, they would need to build a facility from scratch that would be capable of producing the vaccines, and as people should know, it takes longer to build something from scratch. We have plants being built, but many of them aren't going to be ready for years. During the war, it was possible to modify plants that Canada already had to make other things.

Now if you are wondering why we did not have those facilities built before, a lot of it comes down to money. It wasn't economically viable to produce vaccines in Canada when the USA is literally just south of us and could do it quicker, better, and cheaper... And then just ship it up to us. It would be more expensive for us to make it ourselves than to just import it.

That probably doesn't make people very happy, but that is the nature of the situation unfortunately. Canada's issues are not as dire relative to many other places which these companies are prioritizing, and as long as these pharmaceutical companies are meeting their contractual obligations (which, as of right now, they are), then there is nothing we can do besides buying from alternative sources (which, once they get through the red tape, will likely happen).

 

[Nineteen67]

I honestly disagree, considering people were blaming the previous president for those very same deaths. Either way, Cuomo is a piece of shit

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

delete (replied to this twice)

 

[Bluelines]

The southern states have great health care facilities and resources and are equipped handle a virus. Remember the original goal was to ensure the health care system was not overrun.

They do? Any reference to heath care in the States that I have ever heard or read has always ranked the southern states in the bottom of healthcare in the country.

Overall Rank (1 = Best)	State	Total Score	‘Cost’ Rank	‘Access’ Rank	‘Outcomes’ Rank
1	Massachusetts	63.47	20	4	1
2	Minnesota	63.11	4	5	9
3	Rhode Island	62.22	6	7	7
4	District of Columbia	60.72	1	1	35
5	North Dakota	60.70	7	3	22
6	Vermont	59.49	29	10	5
7	Colorado	59.06	36	13	2
8	Iowa	58.70	11	19	15
9	Hawaii	58.59	13	39	6
10	South Dakota	57.81	23	16	13
11	Connecticut	57.69	38	17	4
12	Montana	57.59	2	26	23
13	New Hampshire	57.41	40	23	3
14	Maine	57.37	47	2	12
15	Kansas	57.14	10	12	28
16	Maryland	56.78	3	32	25
17	Pennsylvania	56.61	14	9	29
18	Wisconsin	56.42	44	8	11
19	Utah	55.72	24	44	8
20	Virginia	55.53	18	49	10
21	Delaware	55.26	28	20	19
22	Michigan	55.24	5	33	30
23	New Jersey	55.04	19	27	24
24	Ohio	54.35	8	29	34
25	Illinois	54.27	22	21	27
26	Nebraska	53.73	45	11	21
27	Kentucky	52.62	9	6	44
28	New York	52.58	27	24	32
29	New Mexico	51.84	12	40	36
30	Indiana	51.70	16	31	39
31	Wyoming	51.66	46	38	18
32	Oregon	51.32	49	28	14
33	Idaho	50.99	41	47	16
34	California	50.52	42	35	26
35	Missouri	50.20	33	15	41
36	Washington	49.93	48	41	17
37	Florida	49.01	39	42	31
38	Nevada	48.38	21	43	40
39	West Virginia	48.18	31	14	46
40	Oklahoma	47.92	25	36	43
41	Arizona	47.40	32	50	37
42	Alaska	46.83	51	30	20
43	Texas	46.80	34	48	38
44	South Carolina	46.57	43	37	42
45	Tennessee	46.55	35	34	45
46	Arkansas	45.61	15	22	50
47	Mississippi	44.36	17	25	51
48	North Carolina	44.32	50	45	33
49	Alabama	43.84	30	46	48
50	Louisiana	43.82	37	18	49
51	Georgia	43.76	26	51	47

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Best & Worst States for Health Care

 

[Nineteen67]

They do? Any reference to heath care in the States that I have ever heard or read has always ranked the southern states in the bottom of healthcare in the country.

Overall Rank (1 = Best)	State	Total Score	‘Cost’ Rank	‘Access’ Rank	‘Outcomes’ Rank
1	Massachusetts	63.47	20	4	1
2	Minnesota	63.11	4	5	9
3	Rhode Island	62.22	6	7	7
4	District of Columbia	60.72	1	1	35
5	North Dakota	60.70	7	3	22
6	Vermont	59.49	29	10	5
7	Colorado	59.06	36	13	2
8	Iowa	58.70	11	19	15
9	Hawaii	58.59	13	39	6
10	South Dakota	57.81	23	16	13
11	Connecticut	57.69	38	17	4
12	Montana	57.59	2	26	23
13	New Hampshire	57.41	40	23	3
14	Maine	57.37	47	2	12
15	Kansas	57.14	10	12	28
16	Maryland	56.78	3	32	25
17	Pennsylvania	56.61	14	9	29
18	Wisconsin	56.42	44	8	11
19	Utah	55.72	24	44	8
20	Virginia	55.53	18	49	10
21	Delaware	55.26	28	20	19
22	Michigan	55.24	5	33	30
23	New Jersey	55.04	19	27	24
24	Ohio	54.35	8	29	34
25	Illinois	54.27	22	21	27
26	Nebraska	53.73	45	11	21
27	Kentucky	52.62	9	6	44
28	New York	52.58	27	24	32
29	New Mexico	51.84	12	40	36
30	Indiana	51.70	16	31	39
31	Wyoming	51.66	46	38	18
32	Oregon	51.32	49	28	14
33	Idaho	50.99	41	47	16
34	California	50.52	42	35	26
35	Missouri	50.20	33	15	41
36	Washington	49.93	48	41	17
37	Florida	49.01	39	42	31
38	Nevada	48.38	21	43	40
39	West Virginia	48.18	31	14	46
40	Oklahoma	47.92	25	36	43
41	Arizona	47.40	32	50	37
42	Alaska	46.83	51	30	20
43	Texas	46.80	34	48	38
44	South Carolina	46.57	43	37	42
45	Tennessee	46.55	35	34	45
46	Arkansas	45.61	15	22	50
47	Mississippi	44.36	17	25	51
48	North Carolina	44.32	50	45	33
49	Alabama	43.84	30	46	48
50	Louisiana	43.82	37	18	49
51	Georgia	43.76	26	51	47

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Best & Worst States for Health Care

It’s excellent down here. Even a place like MS was better equipped to handle Coronavirus than Ontario. At the height, in early January they had 1440 patient hospitalized with Covid and didn’t have to lock down like Ontario with 1800 patients. They opened in July.
Arkansas never had a shutdown.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Completely different scenario. It is not that there are literally no solutions. There are always solutions. However, viable solutions are another story, especially when Canada is not the only one who gets to determine the solution.

Canada lacked the facilities to even modify into a Covid-19 production facility when Covid started. Belgium, USA, UK, Australia, etc. had these facilities built, but just needed time (< 1 year) to modify them into potential Covid-19 vaccine use. For Canada to produce their own vaccines, they would need to build a facility from scratch that would be capable of producing the vaccines, and as people should know, it takes longer to build something from scratch. We have plants being built, but many of them aren't going to be ready for years. During the war, it was possible to modify plants that Canada already had to make other things.

Well, I don't agree. This is possibly the biggest national crisis we've ever faced. Anything is possible and I've heard many conflicting versions of our vaccine manufacturing capacity including a couple of companies saying they could have been up and running in months. Either way, China built a hospital in a *week* to deal with their covid dilemma. You're literally showing the can't-do attitude I'm talking about. We used to do amazing things in this country. Now our industries and governments are paralyzed under a sea of red tape and pessimism. This is an existential disaster right now. I don't even want to hear the word "can't".

Now if you are wondering why we did not have those facilities built before, a lot of it comes down to money. It wasn't economically viable to produce vaccines in Canada when the USA is literally just south of us and could do it quicker, better, and cheaper... And then just ship it up to us. It would be more expensive for us to make it ourselves than to just import it.

I hope we've learned our lesson then because We have a $380B deficit this year and they're predicting the same or a little less next year. We should have been prepared for this and a tiny bit of money over the last several decades could have gone a long way in mitigating this crazy spending. This isn't a political view BTW, all parties are responsible.

That probably doesn't make people very happy, but that is the nature of the situation unfortunately. Canada's issues are not as dire relative to many other places which these companies are prioritizing, and as long as these pharmaceutical companies are meeting their contractual obligations (which, as of right now, they are), then there is nothing we can do besides buying from alternative sources (which, once they get through the red tape, will likely happen).

There's lots we can do. Instead, they're expanding an NRC facility run by the types of bureaucrats I deal with every day in the construction industry that do nothing but get in the way of people willing to get things done. If you saw it from my experience, you'd have a different opinion.