Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part XII

[DuklaNation]

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

Thats why there was pressure to conform to a national standard. Don't want examples of alternatives to observe.

 

[Bluelines]

It’s excellent down here. Even a place like MS was better equipped to handle Coronavirus than Ontario. At the height, in early January they had 1440 patient hospitalized with Covid and didn’t have to lock down like Ontario with 1800 patients. They opened in July.
Arkansas never had a shutdown.

I think Ontario chose to act to protect its citizens, while many southern states chose to take an every man for himself approach. For example Florida had 336.4 cases per one million people, Ontario had 74.4 cases per one million people. Florida death rate was 123.3 people per one hundred thousand, Ontario was around 44.6 per one hundred thousand people. The data would suggest that although your perception is southern states did "excellent", Florida's performance is still 3 to 5 times worse than Ontario's performance, for Canadian standards Ontario performed poorly.

COVID-19 in the U.S.: How do Canada's provinces rank against American states?

 

[Nineteen67]

I think Ontario chose to act to protect its citizens, while many southern states chose to take an every man for himself approach. For example Florida had 336.4 cases per one million people, Ontario had 74.4 cases per one million people. Florida death rate was 123.3 people per one hundred thousand, Ontario was around 44.6 per one hundred thousand people. The data would suggest that although your perception is southern states did "excellent", Florida's performance is still 3 to 5 times worse than Ontario's performance, for Canadian standards Ontario performed poorly.

COVID-19 in the U.S.: How do Canada's provinces rank against American states?

A complete lockdown was impossible, impractical and immoral. Using science they allowed the healthy to live their lives. Not just the people the politicians or the people hiding in their holes needed to survive, but everyone is allowed to earn a living and live their lives.

 

[Bluelines]

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

The comment about societal collapse? Where / Who did you hear this from?

Is this the standard that we are measuring this virus by?

 

[Bluelines]

A complete lockdown was impossible, impractical and immoral. Using science they allowed the healthy to live their lives. Not just the people the politicians or the people hiding in their holes needed to survive, but everyone is allowed to earn a living and live their lives.

Not sure activating rules that have been proven around the world to save lives can be labeled as immoral, the opposite is true. I would think politicians who put their own political "tough guy" image before the lives of his constituents is immoral. I think putting the value of the dollar ahead of the value of life is immoral.

The data clearly suggests the method of allowing the healthy to live their lives unencumbered from Covid prevention protocols, resulted in more infections and more deaths per capita. Than if they activated some common sense protocols.

I understand you strongly believe in the opposite to what I believe. I realize I wont convince you otherwise.

Immoral adjective im·mor·al | \ (ˌ)i(m)-ˈmȯr-əl , -ˈmär- \
Definition of immoral : not moral broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles

 

[IPS]

I think Ontario chose to act to protect its citizens, while many southern states chose to take an every man for himself approach. For example Florida had 336.4 cases per one million people, Ontario had 74.4 cases per one million people. Florida death rate was 123.3 people per one hundred thousand, Ontario was around 44.6 per one hundred thousand people. The data would suggest that although your perception is southern states did "excellent", Florida's performance is still 3 to 5 times worse than Ontario's performance, for Canadian standards Ontario performed poorly.

COVID-19 in the U.S.: How do Canada's provinces rank against American states?

And states that went full lockdown performed even worse than Florida...

 

[IPS]

I understand that but can you explain why Florida and South Dakota didnt have societal collapse? Thats what these warnings make it sound like, if we dont lockdown then Ontario as we know it is over. They make it sound like there's only one answer and thats locking us inside until 2025 haha. While Florida had a super bowl, super bowl parade, South Dakota has packed arenas. It would be one thing if those States had fallen apart then Id be nervous, but they didnt and they look fine.

Also the fact that thousands of elderly Canadians are petitioning the Ontario government to stay in Florida kind of leads me to believe that it cant be that bad down there. If it was Id imagine those Canadians would want to get home asap.

Iowa also removed all covid restrictions on Feb. 5th. Guess it's only a matter of time before their apocalypse happens

 

[Future]

And states that went full lockdown performed even worse than Florida...

This is important to note. Impossible to compare any province to a state like Florida. Florida has ~7 million more people than Ontario yet they occupy ~15% of the land mass.

I think we’ve established how contagious the virus is, so it likely wouldn’t matter if they had a strict lockdown. They would still almost certainly have higher transmission rates & subsequent deaths per capita.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

This is important to note. Impossible to compare any province to a state like Florida. Florida has ~7 million more people than Ontario yet they occupy ~15% of the land mass.

I think we’ve established how contagious the virus is, so it likely wouldn’t matter if they had a strict lockdown. They would still almost certainly have higher transmission rates & subsequent deaths per capita.

Plus their population (both permanent and transient) is much older than ours.

 

[Bluelines]

And states that went full lockdown performed even worse than Florida...

Factually true but also factually an incomplete statement. 11 states performed worse than Florida. NY state was among the worst, they are also the North American hub for flights arriving from Europe and as data shows the vast majority of 1st wave cases in NY state originated from Europe. You can't "yeah but" your way to a conclusion that lock downs don't work. If you allow people into your community from areas of highly active virus transmission or if you have people who don't follow the shut down protocol rules, then you get transmission.

People this is not rocket surgery. This virus will not propagate among the human population it does not have human to human contact. Full stop. Lockdowns work. They are pain in the ass, they are inconvenient. They are a strain on some peoples finances. When properly enforced and when people honestly follow the rules they work. I don't think one jurisdiction in North America had a true lockdown, it was more like a lock down lite. Quebec maybe but they were still wishy washy on how strictly it was enforced.

 

[IPS]

Factually true but also factually an incomplete statement. 11 states performed worse than Florida. NY state was among the worst, they are also the North American hub for flights arriving from Europe and as data shows the vast majority of 1st wave cases in NY state originated from Europe. You can't "yeah but" your way to a conclusion that lock downs don't work. If you allow people into your community from areas of highly active virus transmission or if you have people who don't follow the shut down protocol rules, then you get transmission.

People this is not rocket surgery. This virus will not propagate among the human population it does not have human to human contact. Full stop. Lockdowns work. They are pain in the ass, they are inconvenient. They are a strain on some peoples finances. When properly enforced and when people honestly follow the rules they work. I don't think one jurisdiction in North America had a true lockdown, it was more like a lock down lite. Quebec maybe but they were still wishy washy on how strictly it was enforced.

Lockdowns - at best - delay the proliferation of covid.

And it's funny, Florida should be the prime example of what a covid apocalypse should look like with their elderly population and complete lack of measures. But no such thing happened. How many times have we heard about how the spring break is going skyrocket covid, the superbowl events are going to skyrocket covid, and blah blah blah whatever "superspreader event" is going to ravage Florida. It never happens, and people STILL keep drinking the fear monger media Koolaid.

 

[Bluelines]

This is important to note. Impossible to compare any province to a state like Florida. Florida has ~7 million more people than Ontario yet they occupy ~15% of the land mass.

I think we’ve established how contagious the virus is, so it likely wouldn’t matter if they had a strict lockdown. They would still almost certainly have higher transmission rates & subsequent deaths per capita.

The virus transmits easier in denser populations, Toronto has almost 3 million people, it is the 4th largest city in North America. If anything its unfair to compare Ontario many densely packed cities, to a state that has so many small sparsely populated cities. In fact, Toronto (almost 3 million) alone has almost more people than the top 10 cities in Florida (3.4 million.) If you look at population density, Ontario has 5 cities with more population that Miami. Ontario top 10 cities by population totals 7.6 million, Florida top ten cities by population totals 3.4 million people.

Most of 75% -ish of Ontario's geography is in the northern parts where it is sparsely populated, there are more moose than people in those parts .

 

[Bluelines]

Lockdowns - at best - delay the proliferation of covid.

And it's funny, Florida should be the prime example of what a covid apocalypse should look like with their elderly population and complete lack of measures. But no such thing happened. How many times have we heard about how the spring break is going skyrocket covid, the superbowl events are going to skyrocket covid, and blah blah blah whatever "superspreader event" is going to ravage Florida. It never happens, and people STILL keep drinking the fear monger media Koolaid.

Florida's death rate (per 1 million of population) is 3 times that of a province that has a more dense population. I'm not sure how you can be so blind to that reality. I think Florida is living the apocalypse everyday. To say other wise is ostrich head in sand logic.

 

[IPS]

Florida's death rate is 3 times that of a province that has a more dense population. I'm not sure how you can be so blind to that reality. I think Florida is living the apocalypse everyday. To say other wise is ostrich head in sand logic.

It is remarkable how you just move the goalposts every time instead of having an honest discussion. All of the viable comparisons for Florida within America and you choose a Canadian province instead

 

[Bluelines]

It is remarkable how you just move the goalposts every time instead of having an honest discussion. All of the viable comparisons for Florida within America and you choose a Canadian province instead

Moving goal posts? LOL. Dude this is what it look's like when your opponent defeats you in an honest debate. You were happy to debate lockdowns until I introduced facts that didn't support your position, now you say I'm moving the goal posts. Gotchya.

 

[IPS]

Moving goal posts? LOL. Dude this is what it look's like when your opponent defeats you in an honest debate. You were happy to debate lockdowns until I introduced facts that didn't support your position, now you say I'm moving the goal posts. Gotchya.

Not even close, no matter how many immature remarks you try and throw at people. The people who are actually proficient in studying these things don't employ the nonsense techniques you do.

There was actually a study in Denmark not too long ago that compared municipalties that locked down to those who didn't. Its conclusion: The lockdowns “had limited and statistically insignificant effects.”

Lockdown Effects on Sars-CoV-2 Transmission – The evidence from Northern Jutland

Better go tell them to find some random places in Sweden or something to compare them to instead like the silly ass things you do.

As far and comparing different countries if you're a fan of that methodology - Standford did a similar study that compared 8 nations that locked down to two nations that did not. Conclusion? “We fail to find an additional benefit of stay-at-home orders or business closures.”

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But yeah, let's not let proper science get in the way of whatever your vested interest is. Also don't bother replying to me if you're gonna act like a little child without any interest in honest debate, it's pathetic.

 

[Bluelines]

Not even close, no matter how many immature remarks you try and throw at people. The people who are actually proficient in studying these things don't employ the nonsense techniques you do.

Dude why so emotional? Cherry picking debunked outlier studies now? ... You lost... lets move on to the next debate. Cheers.

 

[IPS]

Dude why so emotional? ... You lost... lets move on to the next debate. Cheers.

We'll see who the people reading this think who "lost", not that I even care anyway. Just glad there are prestigious institutions out there trying to get to the bottom of this and are actually interested in truth.

 

[Bluelines]

We'll see who the people reading this think who "lost", not that I even care anyway. Just glad there are prestigious institutions out there trying to get to the bottom of this and are actually interested in truth.

Imperial College, London study -

By comparing the number of deaths counted with deaths predicted by their model if no lockdown measures had been introduced, they found some 3.1 million deaths were averted.
​

WOW interesting ... lockdowns prevented 3.1 million deaths in one study.

USC - Berkley (they're kinda a good university eh?)

A second study by scientists in the United States, published alongside the Imperial-led one in the journal Nature, estimated that lockdowns in China, South Korea, Italy, Iran, France and the United States had prevented or delayed around 530 million COVID-19 cases.
​

More on lockdowns

Dr. Elizabeth Stuart, Associate Dean for Education at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health ( here ) and Dr. Stuart Ray, infectious disease expert with the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine ( here ) . Both confirmed that lockdowns do reduce transmission of the SARS-Cov-2 and highlighted that a more “targeted” or “proportional” approach of restrictions can mitigate the risk of infection...​

More...

.... evidence also suggest that stringent but temporary restrictions, could actually benefit the economic recovery because they reduce the spread of the disease. The International Monetary Fund, for example, determined here that while lockdowns “impose short-term costs” they may lead to “a faster economic recovery. The organization states that “by bringing infections under control, lockdowns may thus pave the way to a faster economic recovery as people feel more comfortable about resuming normal activities” ( bit.ly/2UXoIUy page 74).
​

More ...

( here and here ) that has suggested that the spread of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is mitigated by “progressively stringent measures”, such as stay-at-home orders.

Fact check: Studies show COVID-19 lockdowns have saved lives
​

​

 

[Nineteen67]

And states that went full lockdown performed even worse than Florida...

Yep. California imposed silly lockdowns on the general public but somehow were able to shoot movies and TV shows all through 2020.




This guy is a pretty funny, if you’re interested in a good follow.

 

[Nineteen67]

This is important to note. Impossible to compare any province to a state like Florida. Florida has ~7 million more people than Ontario yet they occupy ~15% of the land mass.

I think we’ve established how contagious the virus is, so it likely wouldn’t matter if they had a strict lockdown. They would still almost certainly have higher transmission rates & subsequent deaths per capita.

Don’t forget age.

 

[Golden_Jet]

We'll see who the people reading this think who "lost", not that I even care anyway. Just glad there are prestigious institutions out there trying to get to the bottom of this and are actually interested in truth.

I think you lost.

 

[Confucius]

Maybe Somebody should inform the decision makers how many people live in this country.

Coronavirus vaccine tracker: How many people in Canada have received shots?

The country has secured more than 400 million vaccine doses from multiple manufacturers, including Pfizer and Moderna. These are the only two COVID-19 vaccines currently approved in Canada.

 

[Bluelines]

Yep. California imposed silly lockdowns on the general public but somehow were able to shoot movies and TV shows all through 2020.




This guy is a pretty funny, if you’re interested in a good follow.

I guess this demonstrates there are a lot of "me first" people in America who don't follow the rules... you can't have an America without putting a me first I guess ... what can I say but selfish people do selfish things?

 

[Bluelines]

Maybe Somebody should inform the decision makers how many people live in this country.

Coronavirus vaccine tracker: How many people in Canada have received shots?

The country has secured more than 400 million vaccine doses from multiple manufacturers, including Pfizer and Moderna. These are the only two COVID-19 vaccines currently approved in Canada.

Might be some that we are donating to poorer countries.