Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[Pookie]

Maybe if people listened to the actual experts I linked, instead of pseudo-science, society at large would have worked harder to get everyone in n-95 masks. Instead, we falsely believe the cloth masks are effective. It's a problem.

cloth masks are effective if worn by an infected person.

Totally agree with you on the N95 front.

challenge is that the world doesn’t make enough of these masks for front line workers, let alone the general public.

true n95 masks are really only supposed to be used once and then discarded.

front line workers are having to reuse them which reduces their effectiveness.

I don’t understand why governments did not enact defense production measures to crank these out.

not only do we have supply constraints, we are seeing significant numbers of counterfeit n95’s hit the market as well.

I can give you a few horror stories on that front.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

cloth masks are effective if worn by an infected person.

Totally agree with you on the N95 front.

challenge is that the world doesn’t make enough of these masks for front line workers, let alone the general public.

true n95 masks are really only supposed to be used once and then discarded.

front line workers are having to reuse them which reduces their effectiveness.

I don’t understand why governments did not enact defense production measures to crank these out.

not only do we have supply constraints, we are seeing significant numbers of counterfeit n95’s hit the market as well.

I can give you a few horror stories on that front.

Looks like we’re not that far off.

the only real thing is... are you arguing that cloth masks DO block aerosols from a sick person wearing one? That’s essentially calling all the doctorate degrees and medical experts at the CIDRAP liars.

 

[Bomber0104]

Looks like we’re not that far off.

the only real thing is... are you arguing that cloth masks DO block aerosols from a sick person wearing one? That’s essentially calling all the doctorate degrees and medical experts at the CIDRAP liars.

On the subject of masks:

Were the Chinese/Korean/Japanese people better prepared for something that we didn't know/didn't care about this entire time?

Or are they paranoid people?

Western Culture used to insult these people for wearing these things on their face.

Their economies and public health are in good to great shape...

Ours is on the brink of bankruptcy.

Were they right and were we wrong, and with malice?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

link?

The overwhelm may not have happened in Ontario but would/could it have without mitigation efforts?

We’ve seen the overwhelm in a couple places so far, Italy, Bay Area, El Paso.

Here was the graphic I posted earlier. And yes, we'll never know exactly how much things are affected by the covid measures we've taken.

 

[Pookie]

Looks like we’re not that far off.

the only real thing is... are you arguing that cloth masks DO block aerosols from a sick person wearing one? That’s essentially calling all the doctorate degrees and medical experts at the CIDRAP liars.

I don’t think we need to take this discussion into a debate on Osterholm’s stance on cloth masks.... that he recently wrote he supported and wears.

There have been multiple peer reviewed studies published in reputable academic journals since CIDRAP put out early policy advice in April. Science evolves.

For example:

American Society for Microbiology (Oct 2020)
Abstract
... we developed an airborne transmission simulator of infectious SARS-CoV-2-containing droplets/aerosols produced by human respiration and coughs and assessed the transmissibility of the infectious droplets/aerosols and the ability of various types of face masks to block the transmission. We found that cotton masks, surgical masks, and N95 masks all have a protective effect with respect to the transmission of infective droplets/aerosols of SARS-CoV-2 and that the protective efficiency was higher when masks were worn by a virus spreader. Importantly, medical masks (surgical masks and even N95 masks) were not able to completely block the transmission of virus droplets/aerosols even when completely sealed. Our data will help medical workers understand the proper use and performance of masks and determine whether they need additional equipment to protect themselves from infected patients.

Effectiveness of Face Masks in Preventing Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2​

It’s totally fair to raise questions. And it’s totally fair to offer hypothesis. And I would agree with Osterholm that distancing is key. I would also say that masks give the wearer a false sense of security which is why I have tried to highlight the data around the fact that masks are much better at protecting others from you than vice versa. And that there are differing degrees of effectiveness.

but yes, data does suggest that masks offer protection against aerosols especially when worn by the infected person.

 

[stealth1]

Here was the graphic I posted earlier. And yes, we'll never know exactly how much things are affected by the covid measures we've taken.

View attachment 381486

I agree with what you said. Its also why I have hard time agreeing with those who question the measures we are doing cause our deaths are so low. I look at places like Sweden and parts of the US where little measures are in place and see the results. For all the praise Sweden got at the beginning of the pandemic, they are now going in to lockdown til the end of January.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

This is just unacceptable at this point. There's no reason this should still be happening 9 months after learning the real threat from this virus. It's a failure of both the federal government and provincial government.

52 dead in COVID-19 outbreak at Scarborough long-term care home - CityNews Toronto

 

[GQS]

Sure, we're in agreement that more needs to be done to protect LTC facilities, however most of the elderly and vulnerable people do not live in LTC facilities so you still need to have measures to protect vulnerable populations outside of these facilities.

LTC fatalities represent 60% of all virus deaths in Ontario. Outside of those homes about 1,800 people have died in the ENTIRE province for the WHOLE pandemic to date. Those aren't the kind of numbers we should be going crazy over when 100,000+ die every year in the province by various other causes.

So again even in the supposedly absolute most vulnerable group of almost 3 million seniors in Ontario, they're dying in vastly larger numbers by other causes than they are by covid. Protect LTCs and you save the most lives and for everyone else, just let life go on. If you're a senior in the general population, take whatever precautions you feel is appropiate for you, but I don't think its at all fair or necessary to significantly damage the lives of the majority of people for this particular virus.

Some 300 people die everyday in the province and the majority of them are from non-covid causes, but do we stop all of society to try and save each and every one of them? Of course not and I don't think we should for covid either contagious or not. Seems like very few places like Japan understand this and get that unless things get really bad, its better to simply monitor and manage things rather than go crazy over every new spike and demand extreme measures to be taken.

 

[Pink Mist]

Here was the graphic I posted earlier. And yes, we'll never know exactly how much things are affected by the covid measures we've taken.

View attachment 381486

This chart and these numbers have already been explained when you posted it last, you're missing the forest for the trees

 

[Pink Mist]

LTC fatalities represent 60% of all virus deaths in Ontario. Outside of those homes about 1,800 people have died in the ENTIRE province for the WHOLE pandemic to date. Those aren't the kind of numbers we should be going crazy over when 100,000+ die every year in the province by various other causes.

So again even in the supposedly absolute most vulnerable group of almost 3 million seniors in Ontario, they're dying in vastly larger numbers by other causes than they are by covid. Protect LTCs and you save the most lives and for everyone else, just let life go on. If you're a senior in the general population, take whatever precautions you feel is appropiate for you, but I don't think its at all fair or necessary to significantly damage the lives of the majority of people for this particular virus.

Some 300 people die everyday in the province and the majority of them are from non-covid causes, but do we stop all of society to try and save each and every one of them? Of course not and I don't think we should for covid either contagious or not. Seems like very few places like Japan understand this and get that unless things get really bad, its better to simply monitor and manage things rather than go crazy over every new spike and demand extreme measures to be taken.

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

 

[4thline]

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

I think it's more like "But MOOOOM, I don't need to wear helmet, last time I got hit in the head it didn't hurt and I'm sure the helmet I was wearing had nothing to do with it."

 

[GQS]

A best you could test a worker, send them home and have results a few days later. Meanwhile they would be at home, where over 50% of the spread happens in close contact. They would get getting groceries, gas, etc.

Which of course would make the test results, once received days later... essentially invalid.

If you wanted to create a bubble where the workers didn't have to quarantine at home and instead in some guarded facility like the NBA... know that in Ontario alone that are over 100,000 LTC workers.

It's a little easier to put a basketball team up in a hotel than it is to find space to house 100,000 people across the province. and monitor them and everything that comes in to that setting.

You can still create a bubble, just a different version. Have care workers only work at a single LTC facility and let no one in or out except authorized personnel. Put all testing resources towards those workers and other health care providers and stop wasting them on the general population with the exception of those people who actually have symptoms and feel they might be infected. Anyone who's found to be infected in a LTC you isolate them immediately. During the 1st wave the bubble may not have been 'perfect' due to not enough testing or lag in getting results back, but it would still be a significant improvement over what actually happened.

And there's certainly no excuse to not have a much stronger and more effective bubble during the 2nd wave with all the testing capacity we have now and knowing what we know from the 1st wave.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

Lockdowns have done nothing to curb the spread of the virus. People aren't abiding by the guidelines in their own homes. As a result, the unnecessary shutdown of businesses have actually increased the amount of community spread because people are becoming increasingly bored and have nothing else to do but congregate in each others homes even more than before. That is the sad truth.

 

[stealth1]

Lockdowns have done nothing to curb the spread of the virus. People aren't abiding by the guidelines in their own homes. As a result, the unnecessary shutdown of businesses have actually increased the amount of community spread because people are becoming increasingly bored and have nothing else to do but congregate in each others homes even more than before. That is the sad truth.

Then it's time to start fining them. Have by-law officers patrol the streets.

 

[Pookie]

You can still create a bubble, just a different version. Have care workers only work at a single LTC facility and let no one in or out except authorized personnel. Put all testing resources towards those workers and other health care providers and stop wasting them on the general population with the exception of those people who actually have symptoms and feel they might be infected. Anyone who's found to be infected in a LTC you isolate them immediately. During the 1st wave the bubble may not have been 'perfect' due to not enough testing or lag in getting results back, but it would still be a significant improvement over what actually happened.

And there's certainly no excuse to not have a much stronger and more effective bubble during the 2nd wave with all the testing capacity we have now and knowing what we know from the 1st wave.

definitely keeping workers from going between places would be an improvement. BC acted differently and their deaths in LTC are lower than Ontario’s.

still not acceptable though.

the rapid testing is a game changer. But until then, workers going home and interacting in the community would bring danger to the doors.

protecting the vulnerable required reducing community and close contact spread.

 

[Pookie]

Lockdowns have done nothing to curb the spread of the virus. People aren't abiding by the guidelines in their own homes. As a result, the unnecessary shutdown of businesses have actually increased the amount of community spread because people are becoming increasingly bored and have nothing else to do but congregate in each others homes even more than before. That is the sad truth.

can we be factual? Outside of gyms and ski hills (Ontario only) and a few other exceptions, all businesses remain open for delivery, curbside and online shopping.

I fear we play up the “lockdown”

 

[Confucius]

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

I hope to never have to be in a LTC home, and I would bet anybody that still has their mind wishes they could lock themselves in their room.

If I lose my mind, cant change, feed myself or go to the bathroom by myself, for the love of God man just end it for me. Many cases of dementia just wondering the halls all day and even at night. Many people living in fear, some imagined but some not so much. I wouldn't feel safe falling asleep in there.

Residents can and do just walk into your room and start taking their clothes off because they think they are at home and going to their own bed they probably think you are their spouse. Speaking of spouse did you know even in cases where spouses are in homes together they are not housed in the same room, which I found truly bizarre.

I witnessed one old guy that was so out of touch, he kept grabbing at a helper's breasts while she was trying to feed him. I've seen a woman use her electric wheelchair to mow people down out of her way in the hallways. Women walking around with dolls thinking the dolls are her babies. This is a common scene as any visitor could attest that there are many women doing this. Apparently it has some type of therapeutic value. So if a woman loses her "Baby" hell hath no fury as she searches for it.

LTC homes are indeed a problem anybody that spends a lot of time in one can see the bizarre goings on. My opinion, nothing short of one on one care will make the homes safe as we are.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Then it's time to start fining them. Have by-law officers patrol the streets.

It's impossible to enforce. There would have to be a defacto state of martial law imposed.

 

[Clark4Ever]

can we be factual? Outside of gyms and ski hills and a few other exceptions, all businesses remain open for delivery, curbside and online shopping.

I fear we play up the “lockdown”

I didn't say shutdown, I said lockdown.

Further to my point, I think it's much safer to have people out occupying their time in environments that have safety protocols enforced than the current state of affairs.

As for the ski hills, Ontario is the only province in Canada to have taken it to such an extreme, and it is absurd.

 

[Confucius]

definitely keeping workers from going between places would be an improvement. BC acted differently and their deaths in LTC are lower than Ontario’s.

still not acceptable though.

the rapid testing is a game changer. But until then, workers going home and interacting in the community would bring danger to the doors.

protecting the vulnerable required reducing community and close contact spread.

Are there any stats that show how many healthcare workers at LTC homes bring the virus home to their families? Of course in the cases where they do, it will be their and their families own fault for not wearing masks and social distancing while at home.

 

[Future]

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

I mean, at face value locking down a smaller % of the population that actually faces a significant risk from this virus is probably better than locking down everyone and their businesses. Most folks I know in their 70s have retired from the workforce and live relatively simple lives spending most of the time in their homes with the exception of some light activity or trips to the grocery store. Yes, I am generalizing, but that demographic would probably feel less of the negative effects of the lockdowns compared to say 18-35 year olds who still are establishing their lives/careers.

I’m sure there are ethical and legal implications that would prevent something like that. But the reality of the situation is that a more targeted/focused strategy would probably cut the death rate by a significant percentage. It would also enable us to do more with less funds.

 

[Confucius]

I didn't say shutdown, I said lockdown.

Further to my point, I think it's much safer to have people out occupying their time in environments that have safety protocols enforced than the current state of affairs.

As for the ski hills, Ontario is the only province in Canada to have taken it to such an extreme, and it is absurd.

I am aware it is two different levels of government Ontario and municipal (Toronto) but it is strange one bans skiing the other ok's skating. I read somewhere there were 8 bylaw infractions handed out at a public skating rink. Yet the skating still goes on. Would that be the case if a private company owned the skating rink and had 8 infractions?

 

[GQS]

Ah, so lockdown for the elderly and vulnerable but not for you because it's too damaging for you. How selfish

Lets be real. For patients in LTCs they were in lockdown like conditions long before the virus hit. When you're that weak that you can't even take care of yourself, you probably weren't going out all that often to begin with. The only difference between pre-pandemic and now is that people aren't allowed to visit you. Other than that, there's probably not that much difference in routine for them now and a year or two ago.

Also you call it 'selfish' to have LTC patients be in lockdown while the general population isn't, I'd say its EVEN MORE SELFISH to significantly damage if not wreak the lives of millions of Canadians to MAYBE save the lives of a few more seniors when we've NEVER taken such extreme measures to try and save 300+ people from dying daily in the province from various causes.

Why is covid suddenly the ONE EVENT that we must say damn the fallout and horrible consequences of shutting down people's lives and the economy and that it must be done at all costs? To me the cost is completely not worth it both financially and personally with how many people its affected emotionally, mentally and physically. The cost far outweighs the benefits and the government shouldn't have done it unless absolutely necessary which I don't think we were anywhere close to.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I hope to never have to be in a LTC home, and I would bet anybody that still has their mind wishes they could lock themselves in their room.

If I lose my mind, cant change, feed myself or go to the bathroom by myself, for the love of God man just end it for me. Many cases of dementia just wondering the halls all day and even at night. Many people living in fear, some imagined but some not so much. I wouldn't feel safe falling asleep in there.

Residents can and do just walk into your room and start taking their clothes off because they think they are at home and going to their own bed they probably think you are their spouse. Speaking of spouse did you know even in cases where spouses are in homes together they are not housed in the same room, which I found truly bizarre.

I witnessed one old guy that was so out of touch, he kept grabbing at a helper's breasts while she was trying to feed him. I've seen a woman use her electric wheelchair to mow people down out of her way in the hallways. Women walking around with dolls thinking the dolls are her babies. This is a common scene as any visitor could attest that there are many women doing this. Apparently it has some type of therapeutic value. So if a woman loses her "Baby" hell hath no fury as she searches for it.

LTC homes are indeed a problem anybody that spends a lot of time in one can see the bizarre goings on. My opinion, nothing short of one on one care will make the homes safe as we are.

Couldn't agree more. I've already given my wife carte blanche to push me over the rail on the cruise ship once I get to that point. Sorry, I ain't going out feeble, incontinent and confused. I just hope she doesn't confuse a night of drunkenness with those qualities.

 

[stealth1]

I didn't say shutdown, I said lockdown.

Further to my point, I think it's much safer to have people out occupying their time in environments that have safety protocols enforced than the current state of affairs.

As for the ski hills, Ontario is the only province in Canada to have taken it to such an extreme, and it is absurd.

I agree it would be better. The problem is and has been shown that when everything is open that people can't understand the difference in businesses being open and not having gatherings. There was a poster in this thread that said cause businesses were open their thinking was that if a business can have people inside I should too. Once the lockdown happened they canceled any plans with friends.