Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part IX- Now Featuring More Lockdowns

[Gabriel426]

I think the majority of people would look at that situation with a little bit of nuance, no?

Many people have seemingly lost their ability to think critically. This pandemic has made it even more obvious how incapable people are of having a nuanced perspective on things. It's either this or that. With us or against us. No in between!

Cannot agree more but I think that’s how our modern society thinks.

People are so afraid of being wrong that they are going all in and hoping more people will support their ideals thus making it legit and majority.

 

[BertCorbeau]

oh please Mr high and mighty, we are all currently locked down. How are the elderly getting by now? Exactly, just carry on.

.. Huh? They're still going to the stores for their basic needs, and not being forced to isolate at home as you suggest should happen.

And you should really be cognizant of what life looks non-urban and rural areas before making such narrowed comments.

 

[DaveMatthew]

1) if you believe that is the case that it is fear mongering I invite you to go out without mask and live your life; go home to your parents or invite people over do whatever you want. Except, if shit hits the fan and your frienfs/family get sick dont go to the hospital

2) the age range of hospitalizations in Canada is shifting; the demographic at present is about 10 years younger on average. Look at the time series not just a snapshot to see the change in trend. If you still beleive it is fake then more power to you.

I understand that COVID is serious, especially for the eldery and those with pre-existing conditions - and that's why we should all protect each other by wearing masks, socially distancing, keeping to a small group of friends/family, etc. These are all reasonable and effective precautions. I have no problem waiting in line to go into the grocery store. Nobody should. But there's a difference between believing it's serious and thinking it's Ebola. It's not. The risk level is not the same for everyone.

I believe our officials should do whatever they can to protect the vulnerable, which they've failed to do with their middle-of-the road PR driven "lockdowns".

Like I said in another post, the ability to look at a situation with nuance is apparently gone for some people. Which is wild.

Saying that COVID is not as serious for someone under 40 as someone over 60 is not controversial. It's fact.

 

[Confucius]

.. Huh? They're still going to the stores for their basic needs, and not being forced to isolate at home as you suggest should happen.

And you should really be cognizant of what life looks non-urban and rural areas before making such narrowed comments.

As long as they social distance and wear masks, its all good.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I've been down and pissed off most of the day with the lockdown news. I see both sides of the coin, and I'm not entirely convinced a full lockdown is the answer. But I don't know what is.

At the end of the day I'm angry at the situation. The government is in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They piss off people no matter the direction they take, so it's lose-lose. It's evident that they believe their efforts are intended to preserve lives at the risk of others livelihood. I can't say the opposite of this would be any better.

 

[CanadasTeam]

I've been down and pissed off most of the day with the lockdown news. I see both sides of the coin, and I'm not entirely convinced a full lockdown is the answer. But I don't know what is.

At the end of the day I'm angry at the situation. The government is in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They piss off people no matter the direction they take, so it's lose-lose. It's evident that they believe their efforts are intended to preserve lives at the risk of others livelihood. I can't say the opposite of this would be any better.

They couldn't have picked a better timing of this lockdown -- large Christmas gatherings and that good 'ol New Years eve bash..

 

[Metroid]

I'm pissed at the lockdowns too.
Government sucks, cuz the people suck and vice versa
It's that easy. We're f***ed either way.
Frustrating as hell.

 

[PromisedLand]

I understand that COVID is serious, especially for the eldery and those with pre-existing conditions - and that's why we should all protect each other by wearing masks, socially distancing, keeping to a small group of friends/family, etc. These are all reasonable and effective precautions. I have no problem waiting in line to go into the grocery store. Nobody should. But there's a difference between believing it's serious and thinking it's Ebola. It's not. The risk level is not the same for everyone.

I believe our officials should do whatever they can to protect the vulnerable, which they've failed to do with their middle-of-the road PR driven "lockdowns".

Like I said in another post, the ability to look at a situation with nuance is apparently gone for some people. Which is wild.

Saying that COVID is not as serious for someone under 40 as someone over 60 is not controversial. It's fact.

Depends on how one defines "serious"

does serious mean only dying? or does serious mean getting hospitalized? or serious mean getting severely sick and potentially developing long term illness?

If you take those hospitalization proportions and pro-rate it to Canadian demographic then you will see how healthcare system is going to get overburdened.

There is no clear science as of yet as to who actually gets hospitalized. Even the so called "healthy and young" population can be hospitalized. Science hasn't able to distinguish between the healthy folks who are getting hospitalized and those that are not.

People are free to take the risk if they deem to do so thinking they will not be impacted as badly

 

[Confucius]

They couldn't have picked a better timing of this lockdown -- large Christmas gatherings and that good 'ol New Years eve bash..

Well they did manage to wait until Dec 26th to enact the bigger lockdown. Can't have everybody breaking the law I guess.

 

[yubbers]

Right... they should continue whatever they're NOT doing and revisit this topic in 1-2 months.

Here's more (NOT bloomberg this time): As Covid death toll soars ever higher, Sweden wonders who to blame | World news | The Guardian

I once again refer you to their total deaths. This year has been no different than their average trends and they didn't shut down. Cases mean nothing. Ppl get sick. Always have. Of course, they're gonna increase as they test more.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I've been down and pissed off most of the day with the lockdown news. I see both sides of the coin, and I'm not entirely convinced a full lockdown is the answer. But I don't know what is.

At the end of the day I'm angry at the situation. The government is in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They piss off people no matter the direction they take, so it's lose-lose. It's evident that they believe their efforts are intended to preserve lives at the risk of others livelihood. I can't say the opposite of this would be any better.

You're letting the government off the hook way too easy. They haven't fixed the LTC problem plain and simple. I'm not being political because I think there's plenty of blame at both the provincial and federal level. They simply haven't taken it seriously. Fix this one thing and everything changes...and they didn't. So they deserve every bit of heat they're getting.

- rapid testing
- focus on nursing homes

After that, the rest is pedestrian. Masks, social distancing, wash our hands. Eazepeaze. Only the above two items are paramount. And it hasn't happened after all this time.

 

[PromisedLand]

 

[Scion]

1) if you believe that is the case that it is fear mongering I invite you to go out without mask and live your life; go home to your parents or invite people over do whatever you want. Except, if shit hits the fan and your frienfs/family get sick dont go to the hospital

2) the age range of hospitalizations in Canada is shifting; the demographic at present is about 10 years younger on average. Look at the time series not just a snapshot to see the change in trend. If you still beleive it is fake then more power to you.

Your response to a valid criticism of the long term ramifications of covid is to go outside without a mask and avoid hospital care if required... I think you may need help.

 

[BertCorbeau]

You're letting the government off the hook way too easy. They haven't fixed the LTC problem plain and simple. I'm not being political because I think there's plenty of blame at both the provincial and federal level. They simply haven't taken it seriously. Fix this one thing and everything changes...and they didn't. So they deserve every bit of heat they're getting.

- rapid testing
- focus on nursing homes

After that, the rest is pedestrian. Masks, social distancing, wash our hands. Eazepeaze. Only the above two items are paramount. And it hasn't happened after all this time.

Some definitely good reasoning here, and it looks like the LTC issue was mishandled, but I’m not sit here and argue what I think the right course of action is on an unprecedented pandemic since I’m not an expert and there are a ton of complexities involved.

 

[PromisedLand]

Some definitely good reasoning here, and it looks like the LTC issue was mishandled, but I’m not sit here and argue what I think the right course of action is on an unprecedented pandemic since I’m not an expert and there are a ton of complexities involved.

LTC worker has a kid that goes to school; gets infected; spreads it to the parent that works at LTC

this parent goes to work and it spreads in LTC


- The people yelling the MOST about the lockdowns are the main drivers behind the lockdowns as they don't obey rules and follow protocols spreading the virus in the community even if they are not impacted directly or severely.

It is the minority that are ruining it for everybody

 

[Muston Atthews]

Overwhelmed? Apparently this is fake news according to some here..

And yet their restrictions have been through the roof. Who would’ve thought?

 

[Stand Witness]

This is such a weird and touchy subject...

On one hand, it is pretty clear who is at the biggest risk and we can clearly do more to protect that group of people. On the other hand, there are also a big group of people who are being crippled financially or struggling with mental health issues. It really is damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

As for my opinion, I think it is pretty clear that the spread occurs from people meeting indoors without a mask... so most likely in private residences. Probably in masked situations with close contact for extended periods of time. I can’t see how this is spreading through retail stores. If they was the case, I think we would see even more spread from customer to employee or vice versa. It seems to be that a store outbreak only results in additional staff testing positive. I haven’t seen any evidence that customer to customer is a significant source of spreading. I think restaurants and bars indoors are an issue too, so further restrictions unfortunately make sense there.

Full disclosure, I am in a very fortunate position for my age. I managed to stay employed in a industry that has seen no impact to COVID and I managed to buy a condo before housing prices skyrocketed again this year (in my area). But because of my age, I also see how much of a struggle it is for almost everyone else my age. My friends are being crippled financially and the amount of time it is going to take to get back on track is significant. It’s tough to look at the cost of living and then being told “well you can’t work right now... oh yea, you can’t see anyone either... stay at home for a year during some of the biggest growth years in your adult life”. This is a very real issue.

I have a friend who is 25 with no preexisting health conditions who is a long hauler. She gets winded months after by just walking up the stairs. It’s scary for sure, no one is for sure safe. At the same time, should she not be responsible for making these decisions for herself?

Increase the restrictions in LTC. Protect the vulnerable groups. Do a circuit breaker to slow the spread.

I guess what I am saying is continue with the status quo. Probably a lot of people won’t like that but I think it is the best for everyone involved.

 

[Mickey Marner]

For LTC workers I think a solution would be two weeks on, two weeks off, paid double time. Live on site or in a near-by hotel bubble during two working weeks. Multiple negative tests required during the two weeks off in order to resume duty. Stagger the staff to avoid short-staffing yourself. Nobody comes in unless they have multiple negative tests, including the day of entry.

The states specifically (but also Canada to some extent) should've utilized their ~500 military bases and ~2.2 million active & reserve military personnel to create quarantine zones, rather than bottlenecking hospitals/LTCs.

This is the reported 10th death of a military member last month due to Covid.

An Army reservist is the military’s 10th coronavirus death

10/2.2 million death rate is effectively a rounding error.

Many military bases have medical facilities, housing, grocery stores, police, entertainment etc. Perfect place to quarantine people as the facilities already exist, their military budget is enormous and military members are the highly unlikely to die from Covid. Keep Covid away from hospitals as much as possible.

Two simple solutions. Shoot holes in them if you care to.

 

[Jojalu]

Some definitely good reasoning here, and it looks like the LTC issue was mishandled, but I’m not sit here and argue what I think the right course of action is on an unprecedented pandemic since I’m not an expert and there are a ton of complexities involved.

I have a hard time understanding why somewhere like Algoma County which has zero deaths, and zero active cases should need to shutdown...

Like you said, I am not an expert, just an observer

 

[BertCorbeau]

I have a hard time understanding why somewhere like Algoma County which has zero deaths, and zero active cases should need to shutdown...

Like you said, I am not an expert, just an observer

my only guess is preventive measures since they assume folks would be travelling to these types of areas.

I live in simcoe county, so it’s not the best here. But if I was in northern Ontario and only had family up there I’d be pretty ticked.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

For LTC workers I think a solution would be two weeks on, two weeks off, paid double time. Live on site or in a near-by hotel bubble during two working weeks. Multiple negative tests required during the two weeks off in order to resume duty. Stagger the staff to avoid short-staffing yourself. Nobody comes in unless they have multiple negative tests, including the day of entry.

The states specifically (but also Canada to some extent) should've utilized their ~500 military bases and ~2.2 million active & reserve military personnel to create quarantine zones, rather than bottlenecking hospitals/LTCs.

This is the reported 10th death of a military member last month due to Covid.

An Army reservist is the military’s 10th coronavirus death

10/2.2 million death rate is effectively a rounding error.

Many military bases have medical facilities, housing, grocery stores, police, entertainment etc. Perfect place to quarantine people as the facilities already exist, their military budget is enormous and military members are the highly unlikely to die from Covid. Keep Covid away from hospitals as much as possible.

Two simple solutions. Shoot holes in them if you care to.

We have spent $381B so far. You could pay 1,270,000 people $300k per year for that money to take care of our LTC centres. I mean, think about the magnitude of that number.

I honestly think people in here don't have one bit of understanding over what's been spent *so far*. We could have solved any problem imaginable with that money. They just decided not to solve any problems and spend it on nothing. That's my biggest issue.

 

[4thline]

We have spent $381B so far. You could pay 1,270,000 people $300k per year for that money to take care of our LTC centres. I mean, think about the magnitude of that number.

And then had no money left to deal with the medical system overrun and economy trashed from crushed consumer confidence from unchecked spread in non-LTC's

I fully agree that something should have been / needs to be done to address LTC's, but it wouldn't have been and is not a magic bullet.

It and the economic impact are the two most keenly felt hurts in the path we've taken. Other paths would have had different outcomes.

 

[4thline]

All the measures have been regressive, rather than progressive. You need a mix of both, like taxes. What the government has done is the equivalent of getting rid of income tax and raising HST, then acting baffled that it's f***ing over the poor and concluding the solution is to raise HST even more. Just locking shit down and hoping for the best is moronic, you need to actually work towards accomplishing things to enact change.

This will likely lead to a rabbit hole that will need to be deleted before I wake up, but "enacting change" and making use "progressive" policies to both mitigate the damage and speed recovery seems like something that could lead to a catchy yet harmless slogan, something like "building back better"

 

[Mickey Marner]

I offered two solutions upthread that I would consider progressive. One is geared towards the US, but we're effectively tethered to their economy and would benefit from success on both sides of the border.

 

[Polaris1010]

Serious question. By what measure are we doing 'worse' in the 2nd wave vs the 1st wave?

There was a spring peak in the number of cases per day the so-called first wave, and Canada has not reached it peak in this second wave during the traditional flu season.

The third wave could be larger than the second wave, but if the vaccine works, then things may return to normal.

Canada Coronavirus: 515,314 Cases and 14,332 Deaths - Worldometer