Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part IX- Now Featuring More Lockdowns

[CanadasTeam]

And people thought Sweden had the answers and figured it out.. yikes.

"Europeans are learning the hard way that there is no perfect lockdown “model.” Everyone’s made mistakes."

 

[nsleaf]

This is an interesting and odd take.

Eat at your own risk at Chez Manbearpig.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Such a silly statement.

In Canada the death totals have been 6x higher for Covid despite our social distancing (so its even more than 6x as deadly) and Covid death totals are likely underestimated.

6x higher despite nearly a full year of significant social distancing.... It is also a very different disease than the flu and likely has more significantly detrimental long-term effects (I believe the biggest long-term side effect is dramatically increased risk of cardiovascular diseases, but I would have to double check that).


Edit: Changed wording (death rate to death totals)... Im not sure what the actual flu death rates are, the only thing ive found is .02-.06% which would make it 50x to 150x more deadly than the flu, but I havent been able to find a 2nd source for that number.

Edit #2: Cant fact check the .02-.06% on my phone, but I found multiple sources that claim positive flu cases are down 50x this year compared to last (most likely due primarily to covid social distancing)... This pandemic wouldve been way worse if we did nothing and just treated it like it was a standard flu season...

No one knows for sure ... this gets kinda ugly but if a guy with COVID, with or without symptoms, dies of a heart attack is it included as a COVID death ... from what I am led to believe it does not matter it is considered a COVID death for tracking purposes at hospital and coroners ... so likely we have deaths from heart attacks in various age range where COVID did not cause death but stats show it as a COVID death ... what would be better to know is people who died in ICU on ventilators as that is da better measure ... the transparency is brutal on this matter

 

[nsleaf]

And people thought Sweden had the answers and figured it out.. yikes.

"Europeans are learning the hard way that there is no perfect lockdown “model.” Everyone’s made mistakes."

Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

 

[Community]

No one knows for sure ... this gets kinda ugly but if a guy with COVID, with or without symptoms, dies of a heart attack is it included as a COVID death ... from what I am led to believe it does not matter it is considered a COVID death for tracking purposes at hospital and coroners ... so likely we have deaths from heart attacks in various age range where COVID did not cause death but stats show it as a COVID death ... what would be better to know is people who died in ICU on ventilators as that is da better measure ... the transparency is brutal on this matter

My own municipality health expert was on the radio a few weeks ago and addressed this. His statement was the following:

If an elderly man breaks his hip by tripping at home, goes to the hospital, catches pneumonia, and dies from it that their death report will say "Primary cause of death is hip injury".

I don't know if this is always the case and it can obviously be affected by which coroner/person fills out the report, but if anything the death numbers are likely under-stated as opposed to over-stated.

If the theory is true that Covid-19 causes a significant increase in cardiovascular diseases, then it is also indirectly responsible for a lot of other deaths now (and in the future) than what will end up being recorded.

 

[Bomber0104]

Brutal.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Brutal.

Excessive

 

[TheTotalPackage]

My own municipality health expert was on the radio a few weeks ago and addressed this. His statement was the following:

If an elderly man breaks his hip by tripping at home, goes to the hospital, catches pneumonia, and dies from it that their death report will say "Primary cause of death is hip injury".

I don't know if this is always the case and it can obviously be affected by which coroner/person fills out the report, but if anything the death numbers are likely under-stated as opposed to over-stated.

If the theory is true that Covid-19 causes a significant increase in cardiovascular diseases, then it is also indirectly responsible for a lot of other deaths now (and in the future) than what will end up being recorded.

My aunt works in a medical building and has connections at a few hospitals. She has a different story where she was told by one of the care workers at one of the hospitals that there was an elderly man in his mid-80s who had COVID in his system. He got up to go to the washroom, slipped, hit his head, and unfortunately passed away. They marked it off as a COVID death, even though the cause of his death wasn't COVID, but because he had it.

I think there are people who have passed away who didn't know they had COVID, as well as on the flipside I think there are people who are marked off as COVID deaths having died with COVID as opposed to from it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

My own municipality health expert was on the radio a few weeks ago and addressed this. His statement was the following:

If an elderly man breaks his hip by tripping at home, goes to the hospital, catches pneumonia, and dies from it that their death report will say "Primary cause of death is hip injury".

I don't know if this is always the case and it can obviously be affected by which coroner/person fills out the report, but if anything the death numbers are likely under-stated as opposed to over-stated.

If the theory is true that Covid-19 causes a significant increase in cardiovascular diseases, then it is also indirectly responsible for a lot of other deaths now (and in the future) than what will end up being recorded.

Yeah you are right it will depend on coroner but a friend had his dad pass a couple months back in Peel and he ripped a big one racking his grass at 75 ... turns out he had a cold and it really was COVID and Peel coroner ruled his death by COVID not a heart attack ... so it probably goes both ways ... would he had gone whether he had cold symptoms or not???? no one really can answer it ... but coroner must make a decision

 

[Muston Atthews]

And people thought Sweden had the answers and figured it out.. yikes.

"Europeans are learning the hard way that there is no perfect lockdown “model.” Everyone’s made mistakes."

weren’t you just saying your daughter was complaining about how busy the hospitals are here? So what you’re saying is Sweden is going through the exact same thing.... except with a bunch of added freedoms

 

[Muston Atthews]

Many posters in this thread who moan about small businesses and restaurants closing as if they're the only things impacted by the pandemic

no one has claimed they’re the only things being impacted. Most if not all people are advocating for small businesses and restaurants while also understanding the care for the general well-being of the population.

regardless, it’s impacting a ton of minimum wage workers who aren’t able to pay for their bills. CERB and unemployment only go so far and just because one guy says he’s fine (who knows the support he has from his family/partner etc) does not mean there aren’t a ton of people who were struggling making minimum alone let alone not even having that income.

I’m lucky I’m in a situation where both my partner and I have good, solid jobs that mostly wont be effected by the pandemic as well as an unreal family support system. A lot of people aren’t in the same boat

 

[Future]

FYI

 

[GLobello]

Can someone explain how a province of 15+ million people has a hospital system that is overwhelmed at only 300 i.c.u. patients? We have more than 300 hospitals in the province and over 40 in the G.T.A. alone. We can't look after an average of 8 icu patients per hospital?

What am I missing?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Can someone explain how a province of 15+ million people has a hospital system that is overwhelmed at only 300 i.c.u. patients? We have more than 300 hospitals in the province and over 40 in the G.T.A. alone. We can't look after an average of 8 icu patients per hospital?

What am I missing?

Where did 300 number come from
There are now more patients in Ontario ICUs than at any point during COVID-19 pandemic
This says 2,136 icu beds in total, last week 1765 were covid cases, not much left for people with regular icu needs.

 

[Blue Nate]

Can someone explain how a province of 15+ million people has a hospital system that is overwhelmed at only 300 i.c.u. patients? We have more than 300 hospitals in the province and over 40 in the G.T.A. alone. We can't look after an average of 8 icu patients per hospital?

What am I missing?

its 300 covid ICU cases right? the province has over 2k total I thought.

 

[yubbers]

And people thought Sweden had the answers and figured it out.. yikes.

"Europeans are learning the hard way that there is no perfect lockdown “model.” Everyone’s made mistakes."

ALmost full? I love how they never reach capacity. ALways the promise they will that never happens.

Can we please stop pretending lockdowns don't have repercussions? Bloomberg is always good for a laugh.

Sweden TOTAL deaths
2017: 91,972
2018: 92,185
2019: 88, 766
2020: 89,941

They're right in line with average annual deaths and shut down nothing.
Sweden: death rate 2010-2020 | Statista

 

[yubbers]

its 300 covid ICU cases right? the province has over 2k total I thought.

They're lying again and selling fear. ICUs and respirators! We've heard this tale already.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Can someone explain how a province of 15+ million people has a hospital system that is overwhelmed at only 300 i.c.u. patients? We have more than 300 hospitals in the province and over 40 in the G.T.A. alone. We can't look after an average of 8 icu patients per hospital?

What am I missing?

ICU is not strictly for cOVID that is what you are missing here ... read below

TORONTO -- There are more patients in Ontario intensive care units than at any other point in the COVID-19 pandemic and the medical director of critical care at one Toronto hospital is now warning of a “very difficult” January.
According to a daily critical care report obtained by CP24, there were a total of 1,765 patients receiving treatment in the ICU as of Monday, including 267 with confirmed cases of COVID-19.
The report pegs the total number of ICU beds in the province at 2,136, suggesting that there is some capacity for additional patients.

Full coverage at CTVNews.ca/Coronavirus
Tracking every case of COVID-19 in Canada
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Four weeks into lockdown, cases in Toronto remain high. What are we doing wrong?
Ontario family pleads for people to take COVID-19 seriously after healthy father dies
What public health measures are in place for my region?
Ontario's COVID-19 cases in schools, child-care centres as of Dec. 21
But Dr. Michael Warner, who is the medical director of critical care at Michael Garron Hospital, says that many of those beds exist “on paper” only because overburdened hospitals simply don’t have enough nurses and other personnel to staff them.
He said that with many hospitals in the GTA already “getting overwhelmed” we are now in a situation where things are likely to get worse before they get better.
“Just to give viewers context back in Wave One when we hit our peak of 283 COVID patients (in the ICU) there were only 1,300 patients in all of Ontario’s ICUs. So we are caring for many more patients and although on paper the ministry may say we have more beds we don’t have the nurses to staff the beds that are available which is the major challenge,” he said.
“It is really the nursing staff that is in limited supply which means that elective surgeries and other procedures will be cancelled to accommodate all the volume that we have to get through.”
The critical report suggests that an additional 25 COVID patients were admitted to the ICU over the last 24 hours, including five more in the Mississauga Halton Health Integration Network where 123 out of 132 ICU beds are now filled.
In Toronto, there are now 48 patients with COVID-19 in ICU units, including 38 on ventilators.
The number of patients in the ICU in the city stands at 344, leaving only 63 available beds.
Meanwhile, the two local health integration networks that oversee hospitals in Peel Region now list a combined 54 COVID patients in their ICUs, including 32 on ventilators.
Speaking with CP24, Warner said that he believes hospitals will be able to continue to provide care to those who need it but he said that surgeries and other procedures are now at risk.
His comments mimic those of Adalsteinn (Steini) Brown, the Dean of the Dalla Lana School of Public Health at the University of Toronto, who said last week that some communities were now at the point “where important care is being delayed.”
“Hospitals have contingency plans. There is staff that can be redeployed. For example if we start cancelling surgeries, those nurses will move down to the ICU to help expand out bed capacity. So that will help,” Warner said. “But some hospitals will be overwhelmed much more than others. There is much more COVID activity in Scarborough, North York, York Region, Halton and Hamilton. These areas are really getting overwhelmed with COVID activity and will have to start to cancel cases to create new nursing capacity.”

 

[yubbers]

Where did 300 number come from
There are now more patients in Ontario ICUs than at any point during COVID-19 pandemic
This says 2,136 icu beds in total, last week 1765 were covid cases, not much left for people with regular icu needs.

Gotta love an article about a report that doesn't present the report.

 

[yubbers]

Now I'll do Ontario Total deaths

2019 Jan-Sept: 71,035
2020 Jan-Sept: 70685

So we're down total deaths in a pandemic? Huh
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl...dYear=2020&referencePeriods=20190101,20200101

 

[Auston 316]

FYI

Shocking.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Now I'll do Ontario Total deaths

2019 Jan-Sept: 71,035
2020 Jan-Sept: 70685

So we're down total deaths in a pandemic? Huh
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1310078501&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2019&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2020&referencePeriods=20190101,20200101

Is the shortage reduced car accident deaths? Likely as cars on road are way down again. People mostly doing nothing from home.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Brutal.

... and irrational.

 

[Confucius]

Is the shortage reduced car accident deaths? Likely as cars on road are way down again. People mostly doing nothing from home.

shhhsh, we'll never be able to drive again, other than to go to work.

 

[AllDay28]

No one knows for sure ... this gets kinda ugly but if a guy with COVID, with or without symptoms, dies of a heart attack is it included as a COVID death ... from what I am led to believe it does not matter it is considered a COVID death for tracking purposes at hospital and coroners ... so likely we have deaths from heart attacks in various age range where COVID did not cause death but stats show it as a COVID death ... what would be better to know is people who died in ICU on ventilators as that is da better measure ... the transparency is brutal on this matter

If someone has aids or cancer and dies from the common cold... did they die of the cold or die from the effects of the illness they had not being able to defeat the cold?