Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part IX- Now Featuring More Lockdowns

[Sens]

If what they a rumoured to announce in Monday there will be no boxing Day sales as all of southern Ontario will go into lockdown. Schools will be closed as well.

Amazon warehouses will be flooded with people for boxing day sales

cases will continue to explode

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Agreed, and we still are getting record numbers of infections

Not to nitpick but as mentioned previously, there are record *confirmed* infections, not record infections. Yesterday 2290 confirmed cases were reported on 68,246 tests. At our April 24 peak of 640 cases, we tested 12,295. Normalizing yesterday's totals to April test levels, yesterday's case count is equivalent to 412 cases or 65% of peak April levels. Thursday's totals were 2,432 cases/58,170 tests which equates to 80% of April's peak and that's our highest count ever. If you take a 7 day average, I'm guessing it will be roughly 75% of the April peak.

It may still happen but we're not as bad as the first wave yet. The death numbers back this up (e.g., 117 yesterday, 207 peak back on May 1 (ignoring a peak anomaly on May 31)).

 

[stealth1]

Can you point to me stats that show businesses were a major contributor to the rise in virus cases?



I blame the government for thinking a shutdown is the solution to everything when such measures should be left for an actual emergency situation which covid is most definitely not. A virus that barely affects people under retirement age isn't my idea of a 'national emergency'. What does it say when we have 2.5 million people in Ontario 65 years old and older and even in that most vulnerable group that is most at risk only 3,500 or so people have died?

That to me doesn't sound like something that qualifies as a national emergency that requires extreme responses like we're seeing now. To me this looks like a situation that requires some precautions without going into panic mode.

First I would agree with you if we were the only place in the entire world closing things. We tried having the economy open with restrictions and this is where we are.

Its not just deaths that are the issue, hospitalizations are a big issue. ICUs are getting full and if they fill up a lot problems come along with that. Then we go back to stopping elective surgeries and possibly picking and choosing who gets medical help.

I don't care how high the survival rate is. Its still something I don't want to get.

 

[stealth1]

Amazon warehouses will be flooded with people for boxing day sales

cases will continue to explode

I would believe that if Peel and Toronto were the only places with high cases. Its not possible that the majority are coming from Amazon. There is probably some cases but I doubt it's the reason for a lot of the cases we see each day.

 

[Nineteen67]

First I would agree with you if we were the only place in the entire world closing things. We tried having the economy open with restrictions and this is where we are.

Its not just deaths that are the issue, hospitalizations are a big issue. ICUs are getting full and if they fill up a lot problems come along with that. Then we go back to stopping elective surgeries and possibly picking and choosing who gets medical help.

I don't care how high the survival rate is. Its still something I don't want to get.

What were the hospitalizations during the 2017/18 flu season. We are seeing high hospitalizations in the mid south right now, that appear to be plateauing, but we don’t have to build field hospitals like we did back in 2017.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

What were the hospitalizations during the 2017/18 flu season. We are seeing high hospitalizations in the mid south right now, that appear to be plateauing, but we don’t have to build field hospitals like we did back in 2017.

I already posted this the other day. There is no difference this year in ICU admissions in Ontario. In fact, we're slightly down over the last few years:

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

And as I've warned several times, here's the first of many similar stories to come:



After you quite literally spent 10's of millions per person's life you've prolonged over Covid, every single case of a treatment that was once considered too expensive to fund will be a raging debate. How are you going to look this little fella in the eye and tell him his life isn't important enough to spend $2.8M after you just spent $30M helping Gamgam get from 94 years to 95?

This will be the new normal forever now after the insane amount of Covid spending.

 

[The Podium]

I already posted this the other day. There is no difference this year in ICU admissions in Ontario. In fact, we're slightly down over the last few years:

View attachment 379556

Hospitals are limiting admissions to ICUs to keep them open for COVID cases or to isolate the vulnerable populations from COVID cases. They are also limiting surgeries that would require ICU post-op. They are overworking staff, particularly nurses, which I know because my wife is a nurse at TGH.

Basically an ICU nurse will be assigned 1 or 2 patients. Some patients that would normally be in the ICU are with the general in hospital population and nurses who would usually be around the clock serving these "ICU" patients have to try to do the same while balancing their normal work load which is 4-6 patients.

Your numbers also show that while their is fewer % occupancy there is the highest number of ICU or critical care patients, they just made more critical care beds available.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

As a Halton resident with Peel already locked down and Hamilton being locked down on Monday, we will be inundated with outsiders. I can't imagine what last minute Christmas shopping is going to be like next week. And I haven't even started yet (fortunately the wife does 90% of it for me).

There's literally no chance Halton won't be locked down soon as a result.

Your Statement of your wife buying most of the stuff reminded me off this meme...all husbands can relate to it...

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Hospitals are limiting admissions to ICUs to keep them open for COVID cases or to isolate the vulnerable populations from COVID cases. They are also limiting surgeries that would require ICU post-op. They are overworking staff, particularly nurses, which I know because my wife is a nurse at TGH.

Basically an ICU nurse will be assigned 1 or 2 patients. Some patients that would normally be in the ICU are with the general in hospital population and nurses who would usually be around the clock serving these "ICU" patients have to try to do the same while balancing their normal work load which is 4-6 patients.

I believe you about canceled surgeries that may have required ICU care but I don't believe for a second a single person has been turned away from an ICU bed already needed it. You'll have to back that up. You're effectively saying they've let people die to save space for covid patients.

And ask your wife how things are every year when the flu surges. I'm guessing it's similar but not quite as bad. Either way, the question is whether ICU's are overwhelmed and the data shows they clearly aren't any worse off this year than any other. Who knows, maybe in hotspots they are but not on average across the province. Sounds like yet another reason there should be collaboration between hospitals to share ICU capacity and even dedicate a hospital's ICU ward for every region exclusively to covid patients.

 

[Pink Mist]

I already posted this the other day. There is no difference this year in ICU admissions in Ontario. In fact, we're slightly down over the last few years:

View attachment 379556

That image doesn't really say that. One, you can see that more beds have been made available this year. Two look at the total patient days which has dramatically increased. And three, hospitals have restricted the use of the ICU due to covid

 

[Confucius]

And as I've warned several times, here's the first of many similar stories to come:



After you quite literally spent 10's of millions per person's life you've prolonged over Covid, every single case of a treatment that was once considered too expensive to fund will be a raging debate. How are you going to look this little fella in the eye and tell him his life isn't important enough to spend $2.8M after you just spent $30M helping Gamgam get from 94 years to 95?

This will be the new normal forever now after the insane amount of Covid spending.

2.8 million per does. Why? Is the stuff flying off the shelves that fast, that it is a supply demand issue. If we are stuck on a deserted island, is it right that I can charge you 100 grand for a bottle of water? Especially if I can make more if needed.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Your Statement of your wife buying most of the stuff reminded me off this meme...all husbands can relate to it...

lol, so true. The worst part is the Christmas day phone calls and having to bluff my way through the "thank you for your thoughtful gift" conversations.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

2.8 million per does. Why? Is the stuff flying off the shelves that fast, that it is a supply demand issue. If we are stuck on a deserted island, is it right that I can charge you 100 grand for a bottle of water? Especially if I can make more if needed.

Their argument will be all the research that went into to developing it. The real reason is just like when they jacked the cost of Epipens from $60/ea to $750/ea: because they can. It's friggin' evil.

 

[Confucius]

lol, so true. The worst part is the Christmas day phone calls and having to bluff my way through the "thank you for your thoughtful gift" conversations.

Been there... LOL! me "where did you get that" them "You bought it for us.."

 

[Pink Mist]

Hospitals are limiting admissions to ICUs to keep them open for COVID cases or to isolate the vulnerable populations from COVID cases. They are also limiting surgeries that would require ICU post-op. They are overworking staff, particularly nurses, which I know because my wife is a nurse at TGH.

Basically an ICU nurse will be assigned 1 or 2 patients. Some patients that would normally be in the ICU are with the general in hospital population and nurses who would usually be around the clock serving these "ICU" patients have to try to do the same while balancing their normal work load which is 4-6 patients.

Your numbers also show that while their is fewer % occupancy there is the highest number of ICU or critical care patients, they just made more critical care beds available.

My sister who is a nurse has been having the same experience being loaded with more challenging intensive patients than normal this year. Also she is currently getting ICU training because her hospital is expecting ICU to get close to capacity and they need more hands on deck

 

[The Podium]

I believe you about canceled surgeries that may have required ICU care but I don't believe for a second a single person has been turned away from an ICU bed already needed it. You'll have to back that up. You're effectively saying they've let people die to save space for covid patients.

And ask your wife how things are every year when the flu surges. I'm guessing it's similar but not quite as bad. Either way, the question is whether ICU's are overwhelmed and the data shows they clearly aren't any worse off this year than any other. Who knows, maybe in hotspots they are but not on average across the province. Sounds like yet another reason there should be collaboration between hospitals to share ICU capacity and even dedicate a hospital's ICU ward for every region exclusively to covid patients.

Not all ICU admissions require the same level of care. Some its required, some its recommended. They are limiting the admissions to ICU where possible A) because of limited capacity and B) because mixing post-op ICU where patients are vulnerable with COVID ICU is risking infection of a population where COVID complications are very very likely. They have not let people die to accomodate COVID cases, dont be silly. They are just mixing in patients that require a higher level of care with the general population that is overworking the nursing staff, and likely other staff as well.

According to my wife, things are worse this year than normal years. Flu surges arent nearly as prevalent in hospital as you may think.

The ICUs arent overwhelmed according to the data because they added nearly 200 more beds according to your data. The problem isnt the capacity of ICU beds as a whole, but rather you need to look at the available ICU beds in the hotspots that are available for both COVID and non-COVID patients.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Their argument will be all the research that went into to developing it. The real reason is just like when they jacked the cost of Epipens from $60/ea to $750/ea: because they can. It's friggin' evil.

I’m a capitalist through and through, but some of the stuff I read about the business of health care just isn’t right.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Not all ICU admissions require the same level of care. Some its required, some its recommended. They are limiting the admissions to ICU where possible A) because of limited capacity and B) because mixing post-op ICU where patients are vulnerable with COVID ICU is risking infection of a population where COVID complications are very very likely. They have not let people die to accomodate COVID cases, dont be silly. They are just mixing in patients that require a higher level of care with the general population that is overworking the nursing staff, and likely other staff as well.

According to my wife, things are worse this year than normal years. Flu surges arent nearly as prevalent in hospital as you may think.

The ICUs arent overwhelmed according to the data because they added nearly 200 more beds according to your data. The problem isnt the capacity of ICU beds as a whole, but rather you need to look at the available ICU beds in the hotspots that are available for both COVID and non-COVID patients.

Your first argument makes sense. The part about 200 more beds: that's about 10% and the occupancy is down 2% so the massive "surge" is 8% higher than normal and as you say, we added capacity to accommodate it.

 

[The Podium]

Your first argument makes sense. The part about 200 more beds: that's about 10% and the occupancy is down 2% so the massive "surge" is 8% higher than normal and as you say, we added capacity to accommodate it.

Again the raw numbers dont tell the whole story, also look how much higher Total Patient Days is (300-1100 more)

It would be interesting if we could see the numbers for GTA hospitals and also COVID specific ICUs vs non-COVID specific ICUs.

 

[Future]

I believe you about canceled surgeries that may have required ICU care but I don't believe for a second a single person has been turned away from an ICU bed already needed it. You'll have to back that up. You're effectively saying they've let people die to save space for covid patients.

And ask your wife how things are every year when the flu surges. I'm guessing it's similar but not quite as bad. Either way, the question is whether ICU's are overwhelmed and the data shows they clearly aren't any worse off this year than any other. Who knows, maybe in hotspots they are but not on average across the province. Sounds like yet another reason there should be collaboration between hospitals to share ICU capacity and even dedicate a hospital's ICU ward for every region exclusively to covid patients.

Further, how do those ICU numbers that you posted justify restricting people, particularly those who are young and healthy, from their right to earn a living?

This pandemic is mostly affecting LTC homes, with about 85% of COVID deaths in Ontario related to them. I don’t have the stats regarding the percentage of hospitalizations related to LTC’s, but I’m assuming it’s around there. With this largely being a LTC problem, we can focus on that problem and distributing vaccines to the most vulnerable. There is no rhyme or reason for lockdowns for the entire population. We need to address hospitalizations and deaths, not cases.

 

[Nineteen67]

And as I've warned several times, here's the first of many similar stories to come:



After you quite literally spent 10's of millions per person's life you've prolonged over Covid, every single case of a treatment that was once considered too expensive to fund will be a raging debate. How are you going to look this little fella in the eye and tell him his life isn't important enough to spend $2.8M after you just spent $30M helping Gamgam get from 94 years to 95?

This will be the new normal forever now after the insane amount of Covid spending.

How can they not pay for it?

 

[Sens]

I would believe that if Peel and Toronto were the only places with high cases. Its not possible that the majority are coming from Amazon. There is probably some cases but I doubt it's the reason for a lot of the cases we see each day.

Thousands of workers got COVID-19 on the job. But the Ministry of Labour has fined just one employer

so you can read the article
Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

More than 7,600 workers have contracted COVID-19 on the job, prompting thousands of workplace safety inspections across the province. But since the start of the pandemic, the Ministry of Labour has issued just two fines — one of them to a worker.
Ministry inspectors have conducted over 31,500 field visits checking for pandemic precautions. They issued about the same number of health and safety orders, which identify workplace violations and require employers to address them.
But only one employer has faced any kind of financial penalty for breaking workplace safety laws​

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Further, how do those ICU numbers that you posted justify restricting people, particularly those who are young and healthy, from their right to earn a living?

This pandemic is mostly affecting LTC homes, with about 85% of COVID deaths in Ontario related to them. I don’t have the stats regarding the percentage of hospitalizations related to LTC’s, but I’m assuming it’s around there. With this largely being a LTC problem, we can focus on that problem and distributing vaccines to the most vulnerable. There is no rhyme or reason for lockdowns for the entire population. We need to address hospitalizations and deaths, not cases.

Been saying it all along. I don't mind the masks and other extra precautions if that's what it takes though. What upsets me is that fact there is still no plan to fix LTC centres or make rapid testing readily available. Our leaders are failing us in epic proportions at all levels and across all parties. Fix LTCs and make rapid testing available and our world goes back to normal.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

How can they not pay for it?

They can't but their have been a thousand stories over the years where someone couldn't get life saving treatment because, for instance, OHIP said it was too expensive to cover. How can they ethically ever make that argument again?