Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part IX- Now Featuring More Lockdowns

[Warden of the North]

We told all of our family that we're not seeing anyone indoors over the holidays, with the exception of my father who lives alone and doesnt go anywhere anyways.

We had my wifes family over last weekend for an outdoor visit/bonfire in the backyard and we'll do it for my family at some point around Christmas when the weather is good. My yard is more then big enough to distance a handful of people.

 

[Confucius]

We told all of our family that we're not seeing anyone indoors over the holidays, with the exception of my father who lives alone and doesnt go anywhere anyways.

We had my wifes family over last weekend for an outdoor visit/bonfire in the backyard and we'll do it for my family at some point around Christmas when the weather is good. My yard is more then big enough to distance a handful of people.

good plan, that was mine as well. Hopefully, the rules don't change and they don't drop the outdoor limit from 10 to 5.

 

[HolyCrap]

The flu is caused by influenza viruses, this is a coronavirus.

The deadliest non-pandemic flu season have about 650k deaths. We are up to 1.679 million in 10 months and that number is most likely undercounted rather than overcounted.

Exactly. It drives me nuts when people call it the flu. That’s like saying a sneeze is a fart. Similar but different different ends. I’m in the middle of the pack with all these arguments. I fear this virus is here to stay regardless and we need to look at ways to protect the compromised while not destroying the less vulnerable socially, economically and mentally. I don’t have the answers obviously but I do have some doubts about what we’re hearing media wise from both angles. Im taking everything with a grain salt for the time being.

 

[stealth1]

Exactly. It drives me nuts when people call it the flu. That’s like saying a sneeze is a fart. Similar but different different ends. I’m in the middle of the pack with all these arguments. I fear this virus is here to stay regardless and we need to look at ways to protect the compromised while not destroying the less vulnerable socially, economically and mentally. I don’t have the answers obviously but I do have some doubts about what we’re hearing media wise from both angles. Im taking everything with a grain salt for the time being.

I think once the vaccine is readily available to everyone that a lot of restrictions will be dropped. Traveling will be a different story as some countries may require it to travel there.

 

[stealth1]

I have to ask since so many are up in arms thinking they are out to get the small businesses and put people out of work. Do you honestly think they would purposely give up on all that tax money coming in?

 

[nsleaf]

Really? I only eat fresh food and shop once a week, aside from some of the meat I defrost towards the end of the week.

Perhaps poster shops at Walmart?

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Perhaps poster shops at Walmart?

costco guy i think

 

[Community]

It's the flu.
Fearmongering is not helpful.

Such a silly statement.

In Canada the death totals have been 6x higher for Covid despite our social distancing (so its even more than 6x as deadly) and Covid death totals are likely underestimated.

6x higher despite nearly a full year of significant social distancing.... It is also a very different disease than the flu and likely has more significantly detrimental long-term effects (I believe the biggest long-term side effect is dramatically increased risk of cardiovascular diseases, but I would have to double check that).


Edit: Changed wording (death rate to death totals)... Im not sure what the actual flu death rates are, the only thing ive found is .02-.06% which would make it 50x to 150x more deadly than the flu, but I havent been able to find a 2nd source for that number.

Edit #2: Cant fact check the .02-.06% on my phone, but I found multiple sources that claim positive flu cases are down 50x this year compared to last (most likely due primarily to covid social distancing)... This pandemic wouldve been way worse if we did nothing and just treated it like it was a standard flu season...

 

[Confucius]

I have to ask since so many are up in arms thinking they are out to get the small businesses and put people out of work. Do you honestly think they would purposely give up on all that tax money coming in?

They will get it from the big box stores. People haven't stopped shopping, there are lineups everywhere. That is the complaint in a nutshell, everyone is still out and about spending.

 

[stealth1]

They will get it from the big box stores. People haven't stopped shopping, there are lineups everywhere. That is the complaint in a nutshell, everyone is still out and about spending.

They would get that much more if all businesses were open and not having to hand out money to help those you aren't working. Its why they were trying to balance the economy and Covid. The lockdowns have come cause they have no choice now. Cases are too high and hospitals are getting full.

I feel bad for small businesses having to close and people who have lost their job. A lot of the blame is people being people.

 

[Confucius]

They would get that much more if all businesses were open and not having to hand out money to help those you aren't working. Its why they were trying to balance the economy and Covid. The lockdowns have come cause they have no choice now. Cases are too high and hospitals are getting full.

Again, its not working, people are just shopping elsewhere. We are in a lose lose situation now.

 

[stealth1]

Again, its not working, people are just shopping elsewhere. We are in a lose lose situation now.

If what they a rumoured to announce in Monday there will be no boxing Day sales as all of southern Ontario will go into lockdown. Schools will be closed as well.

 

[gnr25]

They will get it from the big box stores. People haven't stopped shopping, there are lineups everywhere. That is the complaint in a nutshell, everyone is still out and about spending.

Except for the 30-50% of people who are poorer than before the pandemic. They do not have much or anything to spend.
Even people who are saving money or are still ok financially are not spending as much. Fewer travel, vacations, luxury goods.

Income tax and sales tax revenues are way down for 2020 and will continue to be low in 2021.

 

[Confucius]

Except for the 30-50% of people who are poorer than before the pandemic. They do not have much or anything to spend.
Even people who are saving money or are still ok financially are not spending as much. Fewer travel, vacations, luxury goods.

Income tax and sales tax revenues are way down for 2020 and will continue to be low in 2021.

Agreed, and we still are getting record numbers of infections

 

[HolyCrap]

Except for the 30-50% of people who are poorer than before the pandemic. They do not have much or anything to spend.
Even people who are saving money or are still ok financially are not spending as much. Fewer travel, vacations, luxury goods.

Income tax and sales tax revenues are way down for 2020 and will continue to be low in 2021.

You’re probably right. But around here you can’t buy a new snowmobile, atv boats outdoor equipment. It seems every third vehicle is a new truck. It’s crazy. Real estate is booming. Even used stuff is tough to find and you have pay extra to get it. It could be the fact people are buying stuff they want as the inventory is so low here in Canada. I’m probably just noticing it more now that I’m pay attention.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Except for the 30-50% of people who are poorer than before the pandemic. They do not have much or anything to spend.
Even people who are saving money or are still ok financially are not spending as much. Fewer travel, vacations, luxury goods.

Income tax and sales tax revenues are way down for 2020 and will continue to be low in 2021.

E-commerce has been absolutely booming. Did you know that since July, Amazon has hired, on average, 2800 new workers per day to keep up with demand? 2800 people a day to work indoors, in windowless warehouses, during a pandemic!

Shutting down restaurants and hairdressers when there are millions of people around the world working to support the supply chains of Amazon and Walmart is not going to make much of a dent.

And let’s be honest, Amazon and Walmart are not just selling essentials, and the chances of our politicians telling them to operate at 20% capacity while only selling food, medicine and diapers is slim to none.

They shut down small businesses and restaurants because it made it look like they were doing something, and it’s a whole lot easier and requires less spine to tell a small restaurant to close than it is to tell a billion dollar corporation.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone that despite these “lockdowns”, cases are climbing. And believe me, it’s not because of family gatherings.

 

[DaveMatthew]

If what they a rumoured to announce in Monday there will be no boxing Day sales as all of southern Ontario will go into lockdown. Schools will be closed as well.

No Boxing Day sales unless you order online from Amazon or Walmart. And those packages don’t just magically appear. Thousands of people are going to be working 24/7 to pick and pack orders in warehouses, load and unload trucks, and keep the machine moving.

The people who work those jobs are also more likely to live in denser areas or multi-family households than the average person. They’ll all go home after their shift.

I’ll believe politicians that they’re serious when they tell the big box stores and e-commerce retailers they have to operate at 25% capacity and only sell essentials. That means roping off all areas where there’s no food, and telling Amazon they can’t sell you that TV for 40% off.

Unfortunately, I somehow can’t see Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford telling Jeff Bezos what they’ll gladly tell the guy who owns the barber shop.

 

[stealth1]

No Boxing Day sales unless you order online from Amazon or Walmart. And those packages don’t just magically appear. Thousands of people are going to be working 24/7 to pick and pack orders in warehouses, load and unload trucks, and keep the machine moving.

The people who work those jobs are also more likely to live in denser areas or multi-family households than the average person. They’ll all go home after their shift.

So your answer is to keep all businesses open? Cause that has shown not to work either. Your analogy might work if it was just the GTA that was out of control. Last I looked all of Southern Ontario is having high cases. Its a combination of a lot of things on why. It all still comes back to the actions of all of us. Covid needs people for it to spread. With more people out and about it has multiple people for it to spread to

 

[DaveMatthew]

So your answer is to keep all businesses open? Cause that has shown not to work either. Your analogy might work if it was just the GTA that was out of control. Last I looked all of Southern Ontario is having high cases. Its a combination of a lot of things on why. It all still comes back to the actions of all of us. Covid needs people for it to spread. With more people out and about it has multiple people for it to spread to

My answer is to actually have a lockdown.

That means everyone under restrictions - including online retailers. Amazon can sell diapers, medicine and food. That’s it. They can have 25% of their workforce at distribution centres. That’s it.

Walmart can open their food section and pharmacy, but nothing else. Take all non-essentials off the shelves, or rope them off.

Oh, and if you’re a corporation with billions in profits, you can’t lay anyone off during this period. We’re all in this together and have to sacrifice, right? Shareholders can share in the pain.

Small businesses get federal and provincial support.

The policies we have now is a bunch of middle-of-the road PR “look at what we’re doing” BS that doesn’t actually solve the problem.

 

[stealth1]

My answer is to actually have a lockdown.

That means everyone under restrictions - including online retailers. Amazon can sell diapers, medicine and food. That’s it. They can have 25% of their workforce at distribution centres. That’s it.

Walmart can open their food section and pharmacy, but nothing else. Take all non-essentials off the shelves, or rope them off.

Oh, and if you’re a corporation with billions in profits, you can’t lay anyone off during this period. We’re all in this together and have to sacrifice, right? They can share in the pain.

Small businesses get federal and provincial support.

The policies we have now is a bunch of middle-of-the road PR “look at what we’re doing” BS that doesn’t actually solve the problem.

I do agree that lockdowns need to be more restrictive. I disagree on it being PR. I honestly think they were trying to keep as many people working as possible but cases started getting to high to keep things open.

I wish we would stop putting so much blame on the government for not babysitting enough. I am tired of everyone whining that businesses have to close and people are out of work. Yes it's sad its happening to many people. A lot of the blame can be put on us. Covid needs people for it to spread. The amount of people out and about as if everything is normal is awful.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Closing on Boxing day would probably be the nail in the coffin for several businesses/locations. I bet some have been looking forward to that shopping day for weeks, if not months.

 

[GQS]

Yes social distancing is hard at supermarkets but the chance of you getting Covid is low as you don't have prolonged exposure with those people. They have put capacity limits on businesses and it hasn't worked.

Can you point to me stats that show businesses were a major contributor to the rise in virus cases?

People keep getting mad at the government for lockdowns and closing businesses when at some point all of us are somewhat to blame. Just cause they lifted some restrictions doesn't mean everything is back to normal. Supermarkets wouldn't be so busy every day if people kept shopping to once a week like we were at the beginning.

I blame the government for thinking a shutdown is the solution to everything when such measures should be left for an actual emergency situation which covid is most definitely not. A virus that barely affects people under retirement age isn't my idea of a 'national emergency'. What does it say when we have 2.5 million people in Ontario 65 years old and older and even in that most vulnerable group that is most at risk only 3,500 or so people have died?

That to me doesn't sound like something that qualifies as a national emergency that requires extreme responses like we're seeing now. To me this looks like a situation that requires some precautions without going into panic mode.

 

[GQS]

Yikes. That's one theory. The other one (more realistic) is because most of us know someone older, or have older parents, grandparents and other family members and we care for (love) them. Then there's also the people with health issues that are also at risk.

So if you have people who might be vulnerable to the virus, then why not take precautions yourself rather than forcing an entire nation to do so? And since we know the vast majority of deaths were happening in LTCs why not place extra resources and manpower towards those facilities rather than worrying about the general population? If Ford and our 'experts' were smart enough to do that from the beginning that's over half of those 4,000+ lives lost saved by now and the same goes for the 2nd wave where LTCs are hit again which means our government and experts still haven't learned despite seeing the results of the 1st wave and having an entire summer to prepare LTCs for a possible next wave.

 

[GQS]

I think you need to recognize why these numbers may appear "little" or insignificant to you. They're likely significantly less due to severe mitigation tactics currently in place rather than letting this virus take it's course in a "relaxed" manner as I believe you are trying to suggest.

I'm quite sure you'd change your tune if a loved one cannot be admitted into hospitals and ICUs overwhelmed by patients as there aren't enough beds..

Those 'mitigation tactics' weren't necessary when its been shown that something like 95% of all covid deaths in Canada are seniors and 77% of them being in senior homes. As I said before our government could've taken extra measures to keep covid out of those LTCs and thousands of seniors could've been saved. Instead they wasted their time worrying about the spread in the general population.

I mean in Ontario we're past 100,000+ new infections since the beginning of October and in that same time frame we've added about 800 concurrent hospital cases. So even without the same tight measures that the government took during the 1st wave and despite the 100k new infections we're still below the peak hospital number of 1,050 during the 1st wave.

It took over 2 1/2 months to reach a little over 900 hospital cases with moderate measures in place during this 2nd wave while it took 1 1/2 months to reach 1,050 hospital cases with strict measures in the 1st wave. So maybe 'mitigation tactics' for the general population weren't needed to begin with, but rather just for senior homes and hospitals and the results would've been better for it.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Again, its not working, people are just shopping elsewhere. We are in a lose lose situation now.

As a Halton resident with Peel already locked down and Hamilton being locked down on Monday, we will be inundated with outsiders. I can't imagine what last minute Christmas shopping is going to be like next week. And I haven't even started yet (fortunately the wife does 90% of it for me).

There's literally no chance Halton won't be locked down soon as a result.