Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Maple Leaf]

Mcdai]vid should come home toToronto in his pajams

 

[MCR74]

Crosby absolutely needed those 3 cups to be considered an all time great.

Mcdavid doesn't

l've seen some incredibly shitty takes on this forum, and this one is certainly among them.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby in the top 5 ranking ahead of McDavid doesn't quite sit right

Gretzky - far and away the best player of his era
Lemieux - far and away the best player of his era
Orr - far and away the best player of his era
Howe - far and away the best player of his era
Crosby - lost the Art Ross to Jamie Benn in his prime?
McDavid - far and away the best player of his era

Seems like he would be a bit out of place

Nice insertion of a biased narrative there eh and totally skipped over that Crosby is far and away the best player of his era.

 

[blundluntman]

A bit better? This thread is about him being the second best player of all time.
That’s an exclusive club. He’s had a disappointing series and I say this as someone who really has a lot of respect for McDavid.

I'm replying to your hyperbolic post, let's stay on topic here. There's a huge difference between not playing like the 2nd best player of all time (which I don't even believe he is) and being a major part of the reason your team isn't performing well.

 

[blundluntman]

I still think he has an otuside chance at cracking the top 4, but a big part of that argument is dependent on him having a Big 4 esque conn smythe performanc, which doesn't look like it's gonna happen this year. This Edmonton team isn't strong enough to win a cup unless absolutely everything goes right, and I do wonder if he'll be able to to make another huge playoff push in his prime years with this supporting cast. He's played very well this post-season for sure, but if he really wants a good argument above anyone in the Big 4, he's gonna need as many accolades/accomplishments as possible to do so. I still think he becomes the undisputed #5 by the time he retires at least, but anything beyond that is gonna require a bit more to justify

 

[Fatass]

McDavid won’t be considered the best player during his era. Crosby has that. Connor needs to lead his club to at least one Cup to get into the conversation.

 

[BraveCanadian]

McDavid won’t be considered the best player during his era. Crosby has that. Connor needs to lead his club to at least one Cup to get into the conversation.

What? McDavid has more individual hardware than Crosby already in his career, and for those of us with eyes, passed Crosby’s best a while ago.

Yes, McDavid needs a Cup to hang out with the big boys because so much emphasis is put on team accomplishments in player legacies but in no world is Crosby a better hockey player than McDavid.

 

[olafsson]

McDavid is a one dimensional cherry picker. He’s all offense and skimps in the D zone. Crosby is a 2 way player, can score goals with the best of them, strong along the boards, I know who I’m taking in the playoffs.

 

[Fatass]

What? McDavid has more individual hardware than Crosby already in his career, and for those of us with eyes, passed Crosby’s best a while ago.

Yes, McDavid needs a Cup to hang out with the big boys because so much emphasis is put on team accomplishments in player legacies but in no world is Crosby a better hockey player than McDavid.

Imo the great players define themselves by the Cups they lead their teams to. So fans may be fine with McDavid being ranked with the greatest players, but imo McDavid won’t unless he leads his club to at least one Cup. Right now he’s chasing some other great players who have multiple Cups this era. Crosby and Kucherov just to name two. Hedman is (was) great too. Malkin was great. Putting up individual numbers are important but leading teams to Cups is what separates the greats from the greatest, imo.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I said he played on some great teams not that 09 specifically was a great team so you are attacking something I didn’t even bring to the table. 16 and 17 penguins were far better teams constructed for championships than the 2024 oilers. That’s not up for debate and why you only lunged at me with the 09 team. I’d rather have the 09 penguins as well (not by much) but that’s because I think very little of the 24 oilers. It’s an absolute miracle this team has made the finals.

Crosby hasn’t won with worse teammates than McDavid that is laughable and his best playoff performances statistically are not on par with McDavid’s.

Crosby was the best player in one of the four series in 2009 that being Washington. Malkin was better in the regular season and in the other three playoff rounds (and the playoffs as a whole). Crosby played well in 2009 to be sure but he was not the reason why they won the Stanley Cup nor was he their best player. He also was undeserving of two Conn Smythes with the 16 and 17 teams. Especially 2016. I told people that from here this exact thing as it was happening as well. Sure he still played well but they were very very weak Smythes. Crosby given his individual performances in the playoffs through the same point as McDavid would be cupless if he were swapped on to the 2016-2024 oilers. This is as obvious as the sky being blue and not controversial. I doubt that any forward in league history would have a cup if in this position.

Crosby in 09 is not comparable to McDavid this year? Or which year from McDavid?

Who deserved the 17 Smythe?

And no forward in league history? The Oilers are in the finals and I'd have to imagine there are some forwards in league history who could produce some offense without Draisaitl on his line. McDavid has been outscored at 5v5 in his playoff career when Draisaitl is not on his line. That flat out isn't good enough to win a cup for a guy making the salary that he is.

 

[Frank Drebin]

l've seen some incredibly shitty takes on this forum, and this one is certainly among them.

100% truth

 

[Frank Drebin]

Come on, now. You can't honestly believe that first sentence. Even without the Cups, Crosby's got the individual resume to be an all time great. He may slip a few places in the overall ratings, but to act like he'd go from a Top 10 player all time to not even cracking the Top 50 without Cups is beyond silly.

Not saying top 50. Top 10 for sure. But without the cups can you really make a case for him over McDavid? Where the inverse is certainly not true. Even without the cups McDavid has a solid argument that he will be remembered as the better player when its all said and done

 

[MikeK]

McDavid won’t be considered the best player during his era. Crosby has that. Connor needs to lead his club to at least one Cup to get into the conversation.

Not having the Olympics has definitely hurt McDavid as well. Don't get me wrong. McDavid is a well known name. But if he had been able to play for team Canada and win a cpl of Gold medals I think he'd be viewed a lot differently even today. Crosby is so far ahead of McDavid that I doubt McDavid ever catches him in the eyes of many outside of EDM.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not saying top 50. Top 10 for sure. But without the cups can you really make a case for him over McDavid? Where the inverse is certainly not true. Even without the cups McDavid has a solid argument that he will be remembered as the better player when its all said and done

But that's not my issue with your post. I don't care "who is better" between him and McDavid. My issue is you said Crosby wouldn't even be considered an all-time great without the Cups. That's just pure nonsense when you look at his trophy case/resume, even excluding Cups.

 

[Frank Drebin]

But that's not my issue with your post. I don't care "who is better" between him and McDavid. My issue is you said Crosby wouldn't even be considered an all-time great without the Cups. That's just pure nonsense when you look at his trophy case/resume, even excluding Cups.

When I say all time great I mean top 5 with gretz Mario orr howe

 

[wetcoast]

Malkin dreamed to be a captain, he would make his team a dynasty. Sid is a toxic whinner, the Pens could win more cups without him.

Rent free dude.

This stat is literally meaningless, nevermind taken out of context when one considered the rookie season Crosby played on a really poor team but then again this has been pointed out and when people point out that washington has had better winning %'s than Pittsburg and way worse playoff success the goalposts get moved like usual.

I have Crosby 5th all time right now but think that Mcdavid will pass him eventually, where do you have McDavid right now and just for fun how about Crosby and Ovechkin for some light to be thrown onto your shade?

 

[Frank Drebin]

McDavid is a one dimensional cherry picker. He’s all offense and skimps I’m the D zone. Crosby is a 2 way player, can score goals with the best of them, strong along the boards, I know who I’m taking in the playoffs.

Crosby is like Jonathan Toews on creatine

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Better than Gretzky / Lemieux / Michael Jordan / Tom Brady combined AIENC

 

[wetcoast]

I still think he has an otuside chance at cracking the top 4, but a big part of that argument is dependent on him having a Big 4 esque conn smythe performanc, which doesn't look like it's gonna happen this year.

What are you talking about he leads the playoffs with 34 points (13 more than the next non team mate).

If that's not a Conn Smythe worthy performance then you don't know hockey.

This Edmonton team isn't strong enough to win a cup unless absolutely everything goes right, and I do wonder if he'll be able to to make another huge playoff push in his prime years with this supporting cast. He's played very well this post-season for sure, but if he really wants a good argument above anyone in the Big 4, he's gonna need as many accolades/accomplishments as possible to do so. I still think he becomes the undisputed #5 by the time he retires at least, but anything beyond that is gonna require a bit more to justify

So in the first sentence you are on the right track as a SC is a team thing, even more so now in the salary cap era and with a 32 team league a lot of great players simply aren't going to win a SC and people need to be objective when comparing players today from past eras with totally different league dynamics and situations that are beyond a players control.

 

[blundluntman]

What are you talking about he leads the playoffs with 34 points (13 more than the next non team mate).

If that's not a Conn Smythe worthy performance then you don't know hockey.




So in the first sentence you are on the right track as a SC is a team thing, even more so now in the salary cap era and with a 32 team league a lot of great players simply aren't going to win a SC and people need to be objective when comparing players today from past eras with totally different league dynamics and situations that are beyond a players control.

Obviously it's smythe worthy, nobody's saying it isn't.... However, McDavid probably won't win it if the Oilers lose (Reggie Leach was the last forward to win a smythe on a losing team IIRC). Also, I explicitly said Big 4 level Conn Smythe. 34 points is definitely great but it's not Lemieux/Gretzky tier.

McDavid's clearly a phenomenal talent and I'd argue he has the 4th greatest prime/peak of all time as is. But if he wants a decisive argument over guys like Howe, Orr, or Lemieux, he's gonna need to compile as much hardware and accomplish as many feats as possible; a Gretzky/Lemieux tier smythe would've really helped his case. All I'm saying is that missing out on this opportunity to add more to his resume will make it a more difficult mountain to climb.

FTR, I still think his ceiling is 4th all time above Howe (I value peak/prime over the other criteria and I don't think his peak can compete with Orr/Lemieux/Gretzky). If he can stay in his prime into his 30s and fizzle out as a highly elite player in his mid to late 30s, I'll probably put him over Howe, as I think he has the better peak by a little bit.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Personally I think Gretz is. Unpopular opinion I get it, he was good, no doubt. Still a top 5 of all time in my books, which sounds crazy since I said he was the most overrated in history. People talk of him as so much better than anyone else by a landslide, but I also look at the talents he played with and how they no doubt inflated his numbers. Messier, Coffey, Kurri - all top 50 players all time as well, and Anderson top 100.

All top 59 players of all time, and yet Gretzky still absolutely dominated them in scoring.

 

[TheBeard]

All top 59 players of all time, and yet Gretzky still absolutely dominated them in scoring.

Sure did. He was better than them. They also made him better.

 

[Fatass]

Not having the Olympics has definitely hurt McDavid as well. Don't get me wrong. McDavid is a well known name. But if he had been able to play for team Canada and win a cpl of Gold medals I think he'd be viewed a lot differently even today. Crosby is so far ahead of McDavid that I doubt McDavid ever catches him in the eyes of many outside of EDM.

That’s a very good point. Plus playing with Crosby and McKinnon would have helped McDavid see what the truly great ones do to win.

 

[crowfish]

I see a list of winners, not sure what McDavid is doing amongst that company.

I see a list of players who dominated their eras, not sure what Crosby is doing amongst that company.

McDavids problem is he hasn't won, Crosbys problem is that he wasn't as good as the others on the list. I'll take McDavid.

 

[hotshot1]

Whether you guys like it or not, whether you think it's fair or not, the narrative matters more than stats.

Gretzky dominated every level of hockey, set records that'll likely never be broken, and most importantly, he won. There's not much you need to say about him.

Gordie Howe was top 5 in scoring for 20 straight seasons and won 4 cups. He won in the WHA, then he came back and played an NHL season when he was 50.

Bobby Orr revolutionized a position. He was way ahead of his time. He led the league in scoring as a defense men and won 2 cups.

Lemieux won Art Rosses when the league had Gretzky in it. He got cancer and put up 160 points in 60 games. Then he retired for 3 seasons and came back to put up 76 points in 43 games in the middle of the dead puck era. He captained the 02 team to win gold. He then rolled his unpaid salary into an ownership stake and kept the team in Pittsburgh. He also won 2 cups.

Crosby, along with Ovechkin came along at a time when the league needed new stars and they both delivered. Crosby led his team to 3 cups and scored the golden goal.

McDavid's story so far is that he's uber talented, and won a ton of individual trophies in a league that's made for speed and skill. Leading his team to the finals is great but if he's ever going to be #2 ever, or on the list of the greatest ever, he's got to win multiple cups. There's just no way around it. Everyone else on the list has cups. Lucky for him, he's still got time.