Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[wetcoast]

Now your just moving the goalposts…

I'm not moving goalposts just responding to the tone of your post.

No one said or claimed that, but in his early days…Crosby was nothing special defensively. Was he terrible? No, better than most? I guess…in certain areas maybe? Either way…the poster I was quoting is using crosbys “defense” to say he was better than McDavid.

I think for an all time ranking right now that's a fair thing to evaluate and consider don't you?

Crosby this year was not very good defensively. The stats have been posted countless times. So you’re going to ignore the stats that show this or take the term “well rounded” as some sort of defensive stud and offensive talent?

He actually was for the majority of the year but he and the team sagged quite a bit in March around the Guntzel trade.

And once again why are you using the term defensive stud?

That's part of the tone I was talking about, considering the team he was playing on he had a very good complete 2 way game this year.

The poster also clearly said peak.

Like I said peak all round he was better than most of the top 20 offensive players in any given year.

Ok? you clearly missed my point, which is fine.

No I got the point, you were trying to be too cute by half and not for the first time either.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not moving goalposts just responding to the tone of your post.


I think for an all time ranking right now that's a fair thing to evaluate and consider don't you?


He actually was for the majority of the year but he and the team sagged quite a bit in March around the Guntzel trade.

And once again why are you using the term defensive stud?

That's part of the tone I was talking about, considering the team he was playing on he had a very good complete 2 way game this year.



Like I said peak all round he was better than most of the top 20 offensive players in any given year.



No I got the point, you were trying to be too cute by half and not for the first time either.

Yes you are, but it’s ok. I figured you would deny it.

Well, no. Unless you think their offense is so similar that, crosbys “defense” is the deciding factor or difference maker….which is ridiculous and only furthers the whole illusion that he’s been some great two way player.

Again, he wasn’t a majority of the year though. Nice try once again trying to rewrite things in your favor.

You constantly keep changing the argument. It’s exhausting at this point. My point is Crosby was nothing special defensively at his PEAK.

Nope, not at all. I was pointing out how McDavid(over Crosby) was voted “player you want to win one game” and was second in “players you hate facing in your own end.” Both in which, the poster I quoted, clearly didn’t like that. That’s why he ignored those two and focused on “all around.”…..as if that meant something to his argument about PEAK Crosby.

 

[Video Nasty]

In another day of crazy, McDavid has really been shooting up the rankings in career playoff assists and points.

He entered this postseason with 46 assists and 75 points, which each ranked about 200th.

Entring tomorrow night's next do-or-die thriller, he now ranks 47th in assists, and 73rd in points. With the next 1-2 games of these playoffs, and even "just" a 30 point playoff run in 2025, he's likely to already be tied with Mikita in points with 150 at #30 and pass Thornton for the #25 with 103 assists. He'll still not even be 29 years old.

Whatever his body of work through 12 complete seasons is will likely see him widely known as the second greatest player to ever lace them up. From that point on, it's all gravy and possible accumulation that will make a not so small crowd wonder if he deserves higher.

 

[Voight]

You have players like McKinnon and kucherov who manage to put up similar points to McDavid on a year to year basis. Players are just so much better at scoring now that his offense is not as impressive.

McDavid has never finished lower than third in points, aside from his rookie year.

Can't say the same for those two (and they are phenomenal players)

 

[jigglysquishy]

Kucherov isn't exactly a slouch. He's approaching top 50 all time and rising. MacKinnon is top 100 all time and rising.

That McDavid clearly outplayed their peak seasons is a compliment to him.

 

[Voight]

This defensive beast myth around Crosby only started when his offensive numbers came down as he got older

The funny thing is Yzerman became a two-way machine when his numbers came down but unlike Crosby he won a Selke and was a contender for it for six years.

 

[TageGod]

McDavid has never finished lower than third in points, aside from his rookie year.

Can't say the same for those two (and they are phenomenal players)

So there are seasons where a player is statistically similar to McDavid? I guess he doesn't feel like he is in a different league than some of the top guys. Better of course.

 

[Video Nasty]

So there are seasons where a player is statistically similar to McDavid? I guess he doesn't feel like he is in a different league than some of the top guys. Better of course.

If that’s the case, no one other than Gretzky achieved what you’re looking for, and the sport should have just folded because we’re likely to never see that kind of individual dominance again.

I think what we’re seeing so far from McDavid is the closest we’ll ever get to Gretzky dominance (and Lemieux’s scattered career) in the modern day. We’re unlikely to see a player dominate like this for another forty years.

The guy is racking up hardware that less than a handful of players all-time have accumulated. He’s been top 3 PPG every single year of his career thus far, bookended by a half injury rookie campaign and this season where he has battled through clear injuries, to the point where his shot has been affected…and he still dropped 132 points in 76 games and has 42 points and counting in the playoffs. That’s the level of player we’re talking about. He can be bothered by injuries, play through them, not be quite himself, and still do what he’s doing.

I don’t really get this mindset that McDavid has to win the scoring race for fifteen years in a row for people to not thumb their noses.

 

[WalterLundy]

In another day of crazy, McDavid has really been shooting up the rankings in career playoff assists and points.

He entered this postseason with 46 assists and 75 points, which each ranked about 200th.

Entring tomorrow night's next do-or-die thriller, he now ranks 47th in assists, and 73rd in points. With the next 1-2 games of these playoffs, and even "just" a 30 point playoff run in 2025, he's likely to already be tied with Mikita in points with 150 at #30 and pass Thornton for the #25 with 103 assists. He'll still not even be 29 years old.

Whatever his body of work through 12 complete seasons is will likely see him widely known as the second greatest player to ever lace them up. From that point on, it's all gravy and possible accumulation that will make a not so small crowd wonder if he deserves higher.

As it stands right now his competition for second best ever (through 12 seasons) is Lemieux. I’m excluding Orr here as I never saw him, only played 12 seasons and was a defenseman.

Lemieux through 12 years had 3 Harts, 6 Ross, 4 Ted Lindsays, 2 cups and 2 smythes. 17 total big awards here. Lemieux’s adjusted totals through 12 (EVG/PPG/SHG adjustment) are 1253 in 745 GP for 1.68 ppg.

Considering that McDavid is already tied in Harts and Ted Lindsays with 3 and 4 respectively and that he is only behind in one Art Ross at 5, it is reasonable to assume that in the next three seasons he passes in all three. At least passes in two of the three with a match in the scoring title department. Regular season he should pass Mario.

He also is at 1038 adjusted points in 645 games as it stands now for 1.61 ppg. His last 5 years for adjusted ppg is at 1.77 according to this method. If continuing at that rate for three more years of an average of 79 games played we are looking at around 1458 adjusted points in 882 ish games for 1.65. Point being they would be almost identical statistically per game (era relative) with higher totals and he would have the more accomplished regular season resume. Your point about him potentially being ahead as number 2 is quite feasible.

For playoffs McDavid (adjusted) is at 117 in 72 games for 1.63. Lemieux, adjusted as well, through his first twelve seasons is at 134 in 89 games for 1.51. McDavid has the better playoff numbers for sure including the best individual runs when adjusted. The smythes and cups in Lemieux’s favor as of this moment would be helpful for him but we may be on the cusp of at least one smythe right now with three more years to go in this framing. No telling what can happen in three more potential postseasons. As of today it looks quite possible that McDavid can have the second best career (and through the 12 years you framed this in). I never thought I’d say that about a player if you asked me in 2014 but it looks to be a very good chance of being a reality just a decade later.

 

[TheLegend27]

In another day of crazy, McDavid has really been shooting up the rankings in career playoff assists and points.

He entered this postseason with 46 assists and 75 points, which each ranked about 200th.

Entring tomorrow night's next do-or-die thriller, he now ranks 47th in assists, and 73rd in points. With the next 1-2 games of these playoffs, and even "just" a 30 point playoff run in 2025, he's likely to already be tied with Mikita in points with 150 at #30 and pass Thornton for the #25 with 103 assists. He'll still not even be 29 years old.

Whatever his body of work through 12 complete seasons is will likely see him widely known as the second greatest player to ever lace them up. From that point on, it's all gravy and possible accumulation that will make a not so small crowd wonder if he deserves higher.

in the last three playoff runs McDavid has 95 pts in 51 games which averages to 1.86 ppg. Honestly impressive how he somehow elevates his game a step further when it comes to the playoffs. Many superstars ppg declines in the playoffs, not McDavid’s though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I posted this after game 5 as well, but if the Oilers can complete the reverse sweep, that's going to cement McDavid's legacy as legendary. If they win game 7, he's the captain of the first team to win the cup finals while down 0-3 in 50+ years and the first Canadian team to win the cup in 30 years. He did this while breaking Gretzky's assist record and getting damn close (if not beating) the playoff point record. I genuinely can't think of an accomplishment better than that.

This may be a hot take, but I think that accomplishment alone makes the "big 4" a "big 5". McDavid could retire tomorrow with that as his crown achievement and justify making the "big 4" a "big 5" in my opinion.

 

[crowfish]

It is now a coinflip for OPs thread title to become true by Monday night, and McDavid is only 27 years old.

 

[sportsdynasty]

If he wins the Stanley Cup on Monday, McDavid will be a top 2 player ever!

 

[JFedol]

Edmonton will absolutely torch the league for the foreseeable future after their game 7 win (I don't give a single f*** about Florida somehow finding a way to find their game and comeback after blowing a 3-0 lead lol, that shit AIN'T happening) Ofc it could bite me in the ass but idc lol.

Something like 2-4 cups by 2028. That cup winning experience will be bonkers for them. McDavid/Drai may be greater duo than Sid/Malkin by the time it's 2035 and we look back upon them.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

4th for sure. I have a tough time putting him over Lemieux/Orr just yet (I think Orr gets a little underrated tbh), maybe with a few more cups but talent wise I would say McD is the greatest player ever

 

[Matty Sundin]

Now one game from doing the unthinkable…

 

[bleedgreen]

I saw some of Gretzky in his prime, and I saw Lemieux win his cups. Mcdavid looks just as good as they did in their finals. Other than Mario’s great goal he’s played just as well as the best of the best these playoffs and finals.

 

[bobbyking]

Make no mistake the 08 and 09 wings demolish these panthers lol

it wouldn't even be close, sweep easy

 

[JianYang]

Personally I think Gretz is. Unpopular opinion I get it, he was good, no doubt. Still a top 5 of all time in my books, which sounds crazy since I said he was the most overrated in history. People talk of him as so much better than anyone else by a landslide, but I also look at the talents he played with and how they no doubt inflated his numbers. Messier, Coffey, Kurri - all top 50 players all time as well, and Anderson top 100.

Hehe, maybe we should downgrade his nickname to "the good one".

Seriously though , gretzky had a strong supporting cast relative to what Mario had to work with in the 80s, however, gretzky was just so far ahead of his closest teammates in points year in and year out that he more than stood on his own on those oiler teams.

As for mcdavid, he's in that rarified air as well. I guess my only question at this point is how his game will translate into his 30s, but he just seems like a guy who you can't bet against.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Lemieux only needed to play 60 games and he would have the Art ross in the bag,

Mcdavid isn't winning scoring titles at the pace of Lemieux and Gretizky did, and 66 or 99 would never have lost a scoring title the way he did, they would have had it clinched after 60 games.

Mcdavid will be #3 which is no shame he's the best player since Lemieux he just doesn't dominate the competition like Gretzky and Lemieux did on a consistent basis.

Although he's having the greatest play off run I've seen since Roy in 92.

I've seen Lemieux and Gretz play, and I can fully say Mcdavid is #3 in terms of domination although I still think Hasek is top 5 but gets shafted cos he's a goalie.

 

[TheBeard]

Seriously though , gretzky had a strong supporting cast relative to what Mario had to work with in the 80s,

Whut??

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

Lemieux only needed to play 60 games and he would have the Art ross in the bag,

Mcdavid isn't winning scoring titles at the pace of Lemieux and Gretizky did, and 66 or 99 would never have lost a scoring title the way he did, they would have had it clinched after 60 games.

Mcdavid will be #3 which is no shame he's the best player since Lemieux he just doesn't dominate the competition like Gretzky and Lemieux did on a consistent basis.

Although he's having the greatest play off run I've seen since Roy in 92.

I've seen Lemieux and Gretz play, and I can fully say Mcdavid is #3 in terms of domination although I still think Hasek is top 5 but gets shafted cos he's a goalie.

2 seasons ago he had 34 more points than his nearest non teammate at the 60 game mark, almost 45% of that players total.

4 seasons ago the season ended at 56 games, he had 36 more points than nearest non teammate, which was over 50% of that players total. He actually had more assists than anyone not named Draisatl had points.

He also currently has more assists than any player in the playoffs has points (and beat the assists record by 3 to date)

 

[Dirty Dog]

sometimes people forget the context of these debates. Like, it isn’t that one of the players is an all time great and the other is an overrated bum…it’s rankings of all time players.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

2 seasons ago he had 34 more points than his nearest non teammate at the 60 game mark, almost 45% of that players total.

4 seasons ago the season ended at 56 games, he had 36 more points than nearest non teammate, which was over 50% of that players total. He actually had more assists than anyone not named Draisatl had points.

He also currently has more assists than any player in the playoffs has points (and beat the assists record by 3 to date)

im not counting covid seasons that's not even a full season

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

im not counting covid seasons that's not even a full season

You said 60 games. That was 56 and he had the largest lead of cap era at that point in a season. Do you think over the remaining 26 games that would've made it a full season, the gap would lessen drastically rather than increase or stay the same? Stretched to an 82 game season, that gap widens to 53 points