Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[CokenoPepsi]

A "regular" superstar who captained his team to 3 Stanley Cups. But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

I mean, Jonathan Toews did that too a regular superstar

 

[Bjindaho]

Their playoff stats are pretty close, except for 1 very important one. Crosby has 3 Cups.

There's literally a 0.5PPG difference between the two at this point. McDavid's is higher than Lemieux's so far (obviously different sample) and 2nd best. Crosby is behind Bossy, a couple more Oilers and closer to Esposito and Bobby Hull in terms of points.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

A "regular" superstar who captained his team to 3 Stanley Cups. But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

Thanks for proving my point. I guess this means Jonathon Toews is as good as Connor McDavid. You literally got upset I referred to Crosby as a superstar

 

[GreatGonzo]

McDavid is a better offensive player than Crosby was, but peak Crosby had a better all-around game.

Peak Crosby was nothing special defensively. No need to keep revising history in order to even have an argument.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

McDavid is a better offensive player than Crosby was, but peak Crosby had a better all-around game.

Crosby’s all-around game has taken on mythical status at this point, he was nothing to write home about defensively

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Peak Crosby was nothing special defensively. No need to keep revising history in order to even have an argument.

This defensive beast myth around Crosby only started when his offensive numbers came down as he got older

 

[MuckOG]

This defensive beast myth around Crosby only started when his offensive numbers came down as he got older

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins

This is Crosby's Fifth-Straight Season Receiving this Honor

www.nhl.com

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins

This is Crosby's Fifth-Straight Season Receiving this Honor

www.nhl.com

Yeah, a poll in 2024, notice how it’s not from when he was winning cups or going to finals early on.

McDavid is better defensively right now than Crosby

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins

This is Crosby's Fifth-Straight Season Receiving this Honor

www.nhl.com

First: this was from 2024, not Crosbys “peak” so there’s that…

Second: “most complete” is cool, but I don’t see how it has anything to do with defense considering Crosby this past year was actually quite mediocre in his own end.

McDavid, in that same poll, won “if you had to pick one player to win a game.” By a pretty wide margin. What do you say to that?

 

[BraveCanadian]

When Gretzky was the undisputed best player in the league, yes, goaltending was a complete and utter joke. One of the best goalies of the era was on his own team!

After Lemieux took over that mantle un 1988, however, and continued being the best player in the league for every season he was healthy until 1996-97, he was facing Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, and Martin Brodeur, the three best goalies in NHL history...at their peaks. Not to mention regularly facing guys like Cujo, Beezer, Richter, and Kolzig.

Oh, and remember when he came back in 2000 after four seasons off, in the middle of the dead puck era no less...and he not only led the NHL in points-per-game but was scoring at a level unseen since the mid-90s?

Furthermore, Lemieux was consistently the best player in the league after the iron curtain fell and the best Russian and Czecho-Slovak players joined the league, meaning for the first time in decades the NHL actually was best on best. And Lemieux was the best of them all.

Gretzky had a higher peak and level of dominance, but I truly do believe Lemieux was better, especially when you start looking at adjusted stats.

Connor isn't there yet, but he's better than Crosby. I know scoring isn't everything, but Sid never led the Pens in scoring during any of the three Cup wins. Malkin was flat-out better in the first win, was neck-and-neck with Sid in the third win, and Kessel scored more in the second win. Malkin was a bigger contributor to the Cup wins than Draisaitl has been in these playoffs. If the Oilers went all the way last year or in 2017, that might be a different story.

I’ll paraphrase myself here:

“I always find it an amazing coincidence that goaltending was garbage when Gretzky peaked but suddenly good ~4 years later when Lemieux hit his prime.”

 

[La Bamba]

This defensive beast myth around Crosby only started when his offensive numbers came down as he got older

One day McDavid will be known as a defensive beast as well

 

[Borlag]

It's cute how Crosby gets pumped up as some kind of defensive beast, which he never was to begin with, all the while guys like Datstyuk were ignored by those very same fans because two way play didn't matter enough to make up that difference in offense. Crosby has never been nothing special defensively. Early on he was below average, later on he became above average but at no point he was even top 5.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

A "regular" superstar who captained his team to 3 Stanley Cups. But if you prefer players with better regular season stats, more power to you.

Toews captained a team to 3 stanley cups also.

 

[MuckOG]

Yeah, a poll in 2024, notice how it’s not from when he was winning cups or going to finals early on.

McDavid is better defensively right now than Crosby

You think he wasn't a complete player when won the Cups? If McDavid was better defensively now than Crosby is, don't you think this would reflect in this poll of his peers?

 

[Sasha Orlov]

You think he wasn't a complete player when won the Cups? If McDavid was better defensively now than Crosby is, don't you think this would reflect in this poll of his peers?

If you look at the full poll, one of the categories is players you hate to face the most in their own end

McDavid is 2nd to Hedman lol

 

[tabness]

I’ll paraphrase myself here:

“I always find it an amazing coincidence that goaltending was garbage when Gretzky peaked but suddenly good ~4 years later when Lemieux hit his prime.”

While I agree with the disingenuous nature of an argument that draws such a strict cutoff between the early eighties and later eighties to prop up Lemieux (ignoring Gretzky's own performance in the later eighties and early nineties) there really was a recognition even contemporaneously (forget after the fact) that the league was improving rapidly throughout the eighties and a greater focus on defense and the goalie revolution did begin in earnest throughout the later eighties. From Gretzky's entry in the Hockey Scouting Report from 1989-1990

 

[MessierThanThou]

“I always find it an amazing coincidence that goaltending was garbage when Gretzky peaked but suddenly good ~4 years later when Lemieux hit his prime.”

I mean Hasek and Brodeur weren't even playing in 87-88 and Gretzky never again led the league in points when Lemieux was healthy.

Also, the iron curtain fell and we saw a greater integration of international talent in the league. I mean it's not a theory or anything.

Also...why are you paraphrasing yourself?

 

[OilerTitanFan]

Toews captained a team to 3 stanley cups also.

he captained a stacked team.
Prime Kane, Seabrook, Keith, buff, hossa.

 

[Albatros]

If you look at the full poll, one of the categories is players you hate to face the most in their own end

McDavid is 2nd to Hedman lol

Yeah, because he can take off with the puck faster than about anyone. Not because of his elite defensive ability.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Yeah, because he can take off with the puck faster than about anyone. Not because of his elite defensive ability.

So for the record you think Crosby has elite defensive ability?

 

[BraveCanadian]

While I agree with the disingenuous nature of an argument that draws such a strict cutoff between the early eighties and later eighties to prop up Lemieux (ignoring Gretzky's own performance in the later eighties and early nineties) there really was a recognition even contemporaneously (forget after the fact) that the league was improving rapidly throughout the eighties and a greater focus on defense and the goalie revolution did begin in earnest throughout the later eighties. From Gretzky's entry in the Hockey Scouting Report from 1989-1990

Yes goalie equipment and therefore technique was changing, but that has nothing to do with the oft-repeated argument here that goalies were trash when Gretzky was putting up big numbers and suddenly good when Lemieux hit his stride.

Gretzky won the scoring title in 1989-90 while missing 7 games at age 29 and had another 2PPG season the year after in his age 30 season (the last before Gary Suter ruined him) so.. the hockey scouting report can say what it likes but the only person hanging with a post-peak Gretzky at that time was Lemieux.

 

[Albatros]

So for the record you think Crosby has elite defensive ability?

Since his late 20s he's been very good, earlier in his career he focused on wrong things way too much.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Since his late 20s he's been very good, earlier in his career he focused on wrong things way too much.

Weird.

McDavid is just entering his late 20's and already very good defensively.

 

[wetcoast]

First: this was from 2024, not Crosbys “peak” so there’s that…

sure but no one is claiming that crosby was bergeron earlier in his career either but compared to the pool of top 20 scorers every year his complete game was higher than most and then got better as he aged.

Second: “most complete” is cool, but I don’t see how it has anything to do with defense considering Crosby this past year was actually quite mediocre in his own end.

It doesn't matter what you don't see with your eyes closed?

This is a poll of 589 players who know what the meaning of "most complete" and if it was only offense why would McDavid be behind him?

Also to your last point I guess players had him more complete than McDavid for his offense then?

Which one is it?

McDavid, in that same poll, won “if you had to pick one player to win a game.” By a pretty wide margin. What do you say to that?

Sure McDavid is in his prime crosby was 36 this year.

Want to bet that McDavid probably won't be first or second when he is 36?

 

[GreatGonzo]

sure but no one is claiming that crosby was bergeron earlier in his career either but compared to the pool of top 20 scorers every year his complete game was higher than most and then got better as he aged.

It doesn't matter what you don't see with your eyes closed?

This is a poll of 589 players who know what the meaning of "most complete" and if it was only offense why would McDavid be behind him?

Also to your last point I guess players had him more complete than McDavid for his offense then?

Which one is it?


Sure McDavid is in his prime crosby was 36 this year.

Want to bet that McDavid probably won't be first or second when he is 36?

Now your just moving the goalposts…

No one said or claimed that, but in his early days…Crosby was nothing special defensively. Was he terrible? No, better than most? I guess…in certain areas maybe? Either way…the poster I was quoting is using crosbys “defense” to say he was better than McDavid.

Crosby this year was not very good defensively. The stats have been posted countless times. So you’re going to ignore the stats that show this or take the term “well rounded” as some sort of defensive stud and offensive talent? The poster also clearly said peak.

Ok? you clearly missed my point, which is fine.