Nah Ovechkin overall ability in hockey lower than Kopitar Bergeron or Datsyuk types or Pavel Bure Jagr types if offensive minded players compared and Mcdavid on the other hand is similar to Gretzky Lemieux level even tier higher than Crosby. Ov ofc isnt worthy to be compared to Crosby at all.
Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time
- Thread starter HFpapi
- Start date
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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Ok. What's the statistical record for the on ice impact of Howe or Orr that doesn't have to do with offense?
Gurglesons
Registered User
I don’t think you could put mcdavid higher than Lemieux because todays star players are a lot more protected then in lemieux’s era.
He's currently in that Hull/Beliveau/Richard/Crosby/Jagr/Ovechkin tier. Might be missing a player or two here.
Couple more elite seasons and he's the clear #5. If he's able to maintain his elite play for close to another decade he slides into the Lemieux/Orr/Howe tier.
No one will ever touch Gretzky.
Couple more elite seasons and he's the clear #5. If he's able to maintain his elite play for close to another decade he slides into the Lemieux/Orr/Howe tier.
No one will ever touch Gretzky.
HFpapi
Registered User
I feel quite vindicated with this thread. A lot of people laughed at the beginning, not so many laughing now. The number of people who think McDavid can't end up #2 overall are fewer and fewer and their arguments against the notion weaker and weaker.
If (big if), Oilers come back and complete the reverse sweep and McDavid breaks Gretzky's playoff point record (needs 4 points in 2 games), this might be the greatest playoff performance ever.
EDIT: I'm wrong, he needs 6 points in 2 games to pass Gretzky. Not nearly as plausible but still can happen.
If (big if), Oilers come back and complete the reverse sweep and McDavid breaks Gretzky's playoff point record (needs 4 points in 2 games), this might be the greatest playoff performance ever.
EDIT: I'm wrong, he needs 6 points in 2 games to pass Gretzky. Not nearly as plausible but still can happen.
No, he's not. He's above them all save maybe Crosby (who he will pass regardless). If he wins the cup this year he's undisputed 5th best of all-time and in fact probably already is.
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They all had careers that spanned twice as long as McDavid. While I think McDavid is clearly a better player hockey player than all of them, I take into account their careers as well. Peak + Prime + longevity + dominance + importance to hockey. A mix of all 5 is important, some folks give certain aspects more merit, and I'm not about to argue what's more important.
Not sure why Crosby would be clearly ranked ahead of this tier of players, an argument could be made for any of them.
Matty Sundin
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2006
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HFpapi
Registered User
McDavid has already played as many RS games as Orr, the player most have as #2 all-time. At a certain point, you've simply seen all you need to see to rank a guy. The idea of putting McDavid above the Ovi's/Jagr's/Beliveau's et al is the combo of what he's already done + the acknowledgement that at age 27 he isn't just going to stop playing hockey or fall off a cliff.
He already has the highest peak among them, (in fact I think his peak is better than Howe too). Now it's just the simple matter of stat padding.
But, don't take my word for it. I implore you to run a poll McDavid vs any of the guys you mentioned (bar Crosby) and see the results.
I'd predict 80/20-70/30 in favour of McDavid over Jagr, Ovi or Hull, and an absolute blow-out over Richard + Beliveau
The longer these posters hang on to the opinions that mcdavid is simply a superstar like Bobby Hull,Alex ovechkin or Sidney Crosby, the sillier they look in hindsight.
Those opinions were starting to get pretty stale by the 20-21 season. Right now I'm convinced the only reason posters hang on to them is because they simply don't want to accept the truth.
Which is really really sad when you think about it. Imagine being able to watch transcendent players like Mario, Wayne or Bobby in their primes (or Connor right now) and not being able to appreciate their greatness simply because of human bias and fandom.
WalterLundy
Registered User
It very well already may be the best playoff run ever. He has already tied the all time single season lead over second place (10 points by Gretzky twice) and has the most over a non teammate (20 points with Gretzky having 18 twice). The raw numbers already have it among the four very best we have ever seen but when era adjusted it is the best we have ever seen.
Historical playoff league averages:
EVG: 2.03, PPG: 0.74, SHG: 0.10
23-24 McDavid:
23 GP: 8 G, 36 A, 44 PTS (1.91)
08-09 Malkin:
24 GP: 14 G, 23 A, 37 PTS (1.54)
90-91 Lemieux:
23 GP: 13 G, 24 A, 37 PTS (1.61)
84-85 Gretzky:
18 GP: 13 G, 22 A, 35 PTS (1.94)
92-93 Gretzky:
24 GP: 13 G, 21 A, 34 PTS (1.42)
83-84 Gretzky:
19 GP: 12 G, 21 A, 33 PTS (1.74)
Not only is it the best but it is close to the adjusted record for playoff ppg (Gretzky ‘85) and he almost has it off of assists alone. To me this makes it very arguable for best playoff ever with all context considered.
VistamarCroissants
Registered User
- Apr 19, 2024
- 90
- 63
2nd all-time? No way, maximum 3rd best. Orr and Tretiak are untouchables
I think you can start making a decent argument that McDavid is 4th right now. If he suffered a career-ending injury tomorrow, he likely has the 4th best peak (behind Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux) with similar longevity to Orr and less than Lemieux. The sheer dominance compared to his peers is hard to ignore.
Add on to that this postseason, which is arguably already the best postseason performance in NHL history and the case gets stronger.
The thing about McDavid is that he still has time to improve his argument (he's currently 104th in all-time points with 982 and 96th in points including playoffs with 1099 by the age of 27).
I am not saying that you couldn't argue against this point, but his case for 4th is getting stronger every day.
Add on to that this postseason, which is arguably already the best postseason performance in NHL history and the case gets stronger.
The thing about McDavid is that he still has time to improve his argument (he's currently 104th in all-time points with 982 and 96th in points including playoffs with 1099 by the age of 27).
I am not saying that you couldn't argue against this point, but his case for 4th is getting stronger every day.
The Gr8 Dane
L'harceleur
Yeah he will pass Gretzky and become third best player all time. Gretzky down to 4 yup
tfwnogf
Registered User
- Dec 15, 2013
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ovechkin worse than kopitar and bergeron? what the f*** am I reading lmao
- Jun 22, 2018
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blundluntman
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- Jul 30, 2016
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As a big Tretiak fan, this is one of the few crazy takes I'm not upset with at all lol
Gary Nylund
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- Oct 10, 2013
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blundluntman
Registered User
- Jul 30, 2016
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Maybe but Tretiak is such a random player to choose that I don't really get the context lol
You have players like McKinnon and kucherov who manage to put up similar points to McDavid on a year to year basis. Players are just so much better at scoring now that his offense is not as impressive.
Can you post the, say last 5 seasons of the three players and see how close they are cumulatively?
I can do it for you
| 358 | 207 | 403 | 610 |
|---|
| 360 | 173 | 366 | 539 |
|---|
| 335 | 180 | 317 | 497 |
|---|
These are averages over the past 5 seasons. Not career highs. Averages
McDavid - 47G 140P per 82
Kucherov - 39 G 122P per 82
Mackinnon - 44 G 122 p per 82
Kucherov and Mackinnon are statistically closer to Artemi Panarin (35G, 108P per 82) than they are to McDavid over the past 5 seasons.
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POVERTY
Leafs and Marchand fan
- Sep 27, 2017
- 1,533
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McDavid's points per game is 26% higher than Kucherov's and 34% higher than MacKinnon's
There is always players who put up similar goals or assists. He is clearly the best, but its not so much that we would ever say he is Gretzky level. Now if he continues his playoff prowess, that could push him up.
And he still has less TOI/GP than the Avs three, jesus christ did those guys play entire games on their own?
AND YES IF HE WINS THE CUP, HE IS THE 2ND BEST OF ALL TIME
BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE CARRIED CECI, NURSE, SKINNER, DESHARNAIS, MCLEOD, FOEGELE AND KANE TO A STANLEY CUP. WHO ELSE HAS HAD THIS MANY AVG-BELOW AVG PASSENGERS?
AND YES IF HE WINS THE CUP, HE IS THE 2ND BEST OF ALL TIME
BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE CARRIED CECI, NURSE, SKINNER, DESHARNAIS, MCLEOD, FOEGELE AND KANE TO A STANLEY CUP. WHO ELSE HAS HAD THIS MANY AVG-BELOW AVG PASSENGERS?
Always?
2023 he scored 40 points more than his next non teammate.
2021 he scored 36 more points than his next non teammate, in 56 games. Prorated to a full season thats 52 points.
This year in the post season hes nearly doubled his next non teammate in points (42 to Tkachuks 22)
There is only one Gretzky. He'll forever be #1. But McDavid is up there with Orr and Mario.
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