Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Toby91ca]

It helps demonstrate (although crudely I admit) that the league and sport were far less developed back then.

How many people in the world back then were even exposed to hockey at any point in their life? How many people cared about being a pro hockey player? How many parents would push their kids at an early age and take them to 4 ice times a week or sign them up for expensive summer camps? How many kids obsessed about a job that barely paid more than being a factory worker? (For some it paid less).

Now we have 10's of millions of kids vying for 700 jobs that will change their life and their families lives forever. For the upper echelon it means multi-generational wealth.

Yes, I agree the competition, talent pool, has grown, but so have the opportunities. Back in the day, it was mostly Ontario and Quebec players, much smaller talent pool, but the spots available were also vastly lower.....not that I'm arguing it offsets, the growth of talent pool dwarfs the growth of opportunities.

The 2nd job thing though, nah....I don't think it's part of the argument at all....just means they got paid less, owners took most of the revenues, etc. Wasn't uncommon during that time for major league baseball players to need other jobs to pay the bills either.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’m a huge Mario guy and he was always my choice though I admit Gretzky’s stats are what they are and he deserves the title.

McDavid is already in the conversation for me. I watched Mario at his very best, and while he’s a different style player this is the first time I’m thinking a guy belongs in that stratosphere. Crosby is amazing, Lindros was as advertised but couldn’t stay at that level.

McDavid is no question the best player I’ve seen since Mario. To me he’s likely to be top 5 for sure, probably top 4, maybe top 3. We’ll see about higher.

 

[Rorschach]

He's already passed Ovechkin my friend.

In fact he's probably passed Crosby too. (And I'm a huge Crosby stan). I don't think it's crazy whatsoever to already anoint McDavid 5th best ever (I have/had Crosby there).

The only argument Crosby has over McDavid at this point is 3 cups and I think you could very much argue McDavid these last three playoff runs has been as good as Crosby ever was in the playoffs so I don't really see why you'd hold that against McDavid too much if their individual playoff performances are on par with each other.

Hockey is a team sport, McDavid can't do much more than he's done in the playoffs.

Like what? List what he's done exactly.

Recency bias. Doesn't even have a Cup let alone a Conn Smythe yet.

 

[Rorschach]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

Who won the Art Ross this year? McDavid is not even clearly dominant on his own team let alone the whole league, let alone of all time.

 

[crowfish]

Like what? List what he's done exactly.

Recency bias. Doesn't even have a Cup let alone a Conn Smythe yet.

Sure.

• 3rd alltime pts/game (behind only Gretzky & Lemieux)
• 3rd all-time playoff pts/game (behind only Gretzky & Lemieux
• 5 Art Rosses
• 3 Harts
• Only players in history with at least 3 Harts and 5 Art Rosses are: Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid
• He has the best highlight reel of all time
• He scored the nicest goal of all time (Rangers 1 v 4)
• He just scored one of the nicest playoff goals of all time (last night)
• One of the only players in history to lead in goals & assists in the same season (as well as goals/game, assists/game): Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid
• Most points in a season in the salary cap era
• One of 5 players in history to record 100 assists in a season
• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs)
• Only player in the salary cap era besides Kucherov to have 30+ playoff points twice, and that is without playing a game in the SCF yet

This is just off the top of my head. He is 27 years old.

Btw, the "recency bias" is actually working against him. 27 year olds are not supposed to be lock top 5 players so soon. but McDavid is just that good.

 

[Rorschach]

Sure.

• 3rd alltime pts/game (behind only Gretzky & Lemieux)
• 3rd all-time playoff pts/game (behind only Gretzky & Lemieux
• 5 Art Rosses
• 3 Harts
• Only players in history with at least 3 Harts and 5 Art Rosses are: Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid
• He has the best highlight reel of all time
• He scored the nicest goal of all time (Rangers 1 v 4)
• He just scored one of the nicest playoff goals of all time (last night)
• One of the only players in history to lead in goals & assists in the same season (as well as goals/game, assists/game): Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid
• Most points in a season in the salary cap era
• One of 5 players in history to record 100 assists in a season
• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs)
• Only player in the salary cap era besides Kucherov to have 30+ playoff points twice, and that is without playing a game in the SCF yet

This is just off the top of my head. He is 27 years old.

Btw, the "recency bias" is actually working against him. 27 year olds are not supposed to be lock top 5 players so soon. but McDavid is just that good.

Best highlight reel of all time....I'm speechless. Nicest goal...

By the way, the above stuff you list is nothing compared guys like Hasek or Orr, let alone Lemieux or Gretzky.

By they way, when you say stuff like this:

• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs

I can see how you need to move the goalposts to fit your guy and still not beat either of those guys. You remember the topic is that McDavid as 2nd best of all time. If you list Gretzky and Lemieux, that's two players right there and these guys were scoring 200 points in just regular season, not "160+".

Your argument above all says he's a top 100 player, not a top 2 player of all time. McDavid didn't revolutionize any game, he "arguably" is sometimes the best player in the league currently. No one is making any new rules to counteract his game/team. He even lost a Hart to a player on his own team.
Bobby Orr did it ALL as a defenseman and did it by the time he was 24 years old while revolutionizing the NHL forever. That's A guy that needs to be beat for the #2 spot.

And any argument about Cap era anything...keep in mind Gretzky played for Pocklington while Mario Lemieux played in Pittsburgh, who when he joined the team, they were the Nordiques of hockey and after he was gone, they dumped Jagr and then went bankrupt. Neither of those guys had a rich owner like Katz to play for.

• 3 Harts

You know there are multiple players who have 3 or more Harts. And many of them are not "top five of all time" let alone #2. Ovechkin, Shore, Morenz, Clarke, heck Gordie Howe had SIX Hart Trophies in his time in the NHL, not counting WHA. Orr won three in a row as a defenseman. Hasek won two back to back as a goalie. McDavid never even won back to back, that's how "dominant" he has (or hasn't) been.



Wait...are you actually trying to prove my point rather than argue it?

 

[bobbyking]

even if oilers win the cup, this is one of the absolute weakest years ever for the stanley cup

 

[Regal]

Best highlight reel of all time....I'm speechless.

By the way, the above stuff you list is nothing compared guys like Hasek or Orr, let alone Lemieux or Gretzky.

By they way, when you say stuff like this:

• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs

I can see how you need to move the goalposts to fit your guy and still not beat either of those guys. You remember the topic is that McDavid as 2nd best of all time. If you list Gretzky and Lemieux, that's two players right there and these guys were scoring 200 points in just regular season, not "160+".

Your argument above all says he's a top 100 player, not a top 2 player of all time. McDavid didn't revolutionize any game, he "arguably" is sometimes the best player in the league currently. No one is making any new rules to counteract his game/team. He even lost a Hart to a player on his own team.
Bobby Orr did it ALL as a defenseman and did it by the time he was 24 years old while revolutionizing the NHL forever. That's A guy that needs to be beat for the #2 spot.

And any argument about Cap era anything...keep in mind Gretzky played for Pocklington while Mario Lemieux played in Pittsburgh, who when he joined the team, they were the Nordiques of hockey and after he was gone, they dumped Jagr and then went bankrupt. Neither of those guys had a rich owner like Katz to play for.

There’s some fair criticism here but there’s some pretty weak arguments too. A list with 5 Art Ross trophies and 3 Harts suggests he’s a lot more than “a top 100 player”. And you say he lost a Hart to his teammate then bring up Orr who lost multiple Harts to his own teammate. And a rich owner doesn’t mean much in a hard cap league.

You’re also confusing the argument despite being the one who asked for the list. The poster was making this list based on having McDavid at number 5 currently, not number 2. They were suggesting that he’d be number 2 by the end of his career.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Best highlight reel of all time....I'm speechless. Nicest goal...

By the way, the above stuff you list is nothing compared guys like Hasek or Orr, let alone Lemieux or Gretzky.

By they way, when you say stuff like this:

• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs

I can see how you need to move the goalposts to fit your guy and still not beat either of those guys. You remember the topic is that McDavid as 2nd best of all time. If you list Gretzky and Lemieux, that's two players right there and these guys were scoring 200 points in just regular season, not "160+".

Your argument above all says he's a top 100 player, not a top 2 player of all time. McDavid didn't revolutionize any game, he "arguably" is sometimes the best player in the league currently. No one is making any new rules to counteract his game/team. He even lost a Hart to a player on his own team.
Bobby Orr did it ALL as a defenseman and did it by the time he was 24 years old while revolutionizing the NHL forever. That's A guy that needs to be beat for the #2 spot.

And any argument about Cap era anything...keep in mind Gretzky played for Pocklington while Mario Lemieux played in Pittsburgh, who when he joined the team, they were the Nordiques of hockey and after he was gone, they dumped Jagr and then went bankrupt. Neither of those guys had a rich owner like Katz to play for.

• 3 Harts

You know there are multiple players who have 3 or more Harts. And many of them are not "top five of all time" let alone #2. Ovechkin, Shore, Morenz, Clarke, heck Gordie Howe had SIX Hart Trophies in his time in the NHL, not counting WHA. Orr won three in a row as a defenseman. Hasek won two back to back as a goalie. McDavid never even won back to back, that's how "dominant" he has (or hasn't) been.



Wait...are you actually trying to prove my point rather than argue it?

Bro said “I’m speechless” and then wrote an additional 5+ paragraphs of nonsense lmfao

 

[MadLuke]

Best highlight reel of all time....I'm speechless. Nicest goal...

It will be in nice quality HD, lot of angles, high speed camera slow-motion, which give him a big edge vs player of the past. even if he would be 90% has spectacular than Mario-Orr, could still easily have a better highlight reel.

 

[GOilers88]

Hard for me to fathom having anyone above Orr.

Gretzky/Orr is just forever going to be the one two for me.

 

[Rorschach]

There’s some fair criticism here but there’s some pretty weak arguments too. A list with 5 Art Ross trophies and 3 Harts suggests he’s a lot more than “a top 100 player”. And you say he lost a Hart to his teammate then bring up Orr who lost multiple Harts to his own teammate. And a rich owner doesn’t mean much in a hard cap league.

You’re also confusing the argument despite being the one who asked for the list. The poster was making this list based on having McDavid at number 5 currently, not number 2. They were suggesting that he’d be number 2 by the end of his career.

I use top 100 because I haven't done the analysis of where he exactly would fall especially with his career still ongoing. Who knows? Maybe top 30? Maybe higher?

As for #2, McDavid is not in the conversation so far and has not shown the trajectory. A better question is, will he be all time #2 in his franchise, let alone all time. That franchise has had an insane number of first ballot HOFers.

And Orr has the injury thing plus is competing as a defenseman. He won three in a row. If you're saying he lost to a HOF center as a rookie...I don't buy that as a viable argument; if you're saying he lost it late in his short career, I also don't buy it as a viable argument against McDavid. Why? Because Draisaitl won his during McDavid's peak/prime.

Bro said “I’m speechless” and then wrote an additional 5+ paragraphs of nonsense lmfao

Reading comprehension, bro. I say speechless to the one line he said that I didn't even bother arguing.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Gretzky - unfathomable of what he did and how he played the game, there was even nhl rules changed because of him.

Orr - Revolutionary blueliner

Mario - The guy comes backs from cancer and dominates the NHL, only better forward was Gretzky.

Howe - could do it all, and did it in multiple eras

Hasek - There was a reason he was called the dominator

These guys are almost unbeatable and locked as the top 5 ever.

Then there's still players I have missed like Harvey, Plante, etc who also revolutionized the game.

McDavid may go down as a top 10, but unlikely to break top 5.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I use top 100 because I haven't done the analysis of where he exactly would fall especially with his career still ongoing. Who knows? Maybe top 30? Maybe higher?

As for #2, McDavid is not in the conversation so far and has not shown the trajectory. A better question is, will he be all time #2 in his franchise, let alone all time. That franchise has had an insane number of first ballot HOFers.

And Orr has the injury thing plus is competing as a defenseman. He won three in a row. If you're saying he lost to a HOF center as a rookie...I don't buy that as a viable argument; if you're saying he lost it late in his short career, I also don't buy it as a viable argument against McDavid. Why? Because Draisaitl won his during McDavid's peak/prime.



Reading comprehension, bro. I say speechless to the one line he said that I didn't even bother arguing.

“Maybe top 30” is not a serious opinion at all, this is just trolling

 

[crowfish]

“Maybe top 30” is not a serious opinion at all, this is just trolling

These people are serious though. It's baffling to me how proudly people will proclaim their idiotic takes on the internet. They are clueless about a subject but happy to debate about it. Zero self-awareness.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Gretzky - unfathomable of what he did and how he played the game, there was even nhl rules changed because of him.

Orr - Revolutionary blueliner

Mario - The guy comes backs from cancer and dominates the NHL, only better forward was Gretzky.

Howe - could do it all, and did it in multiple eras

Hasek - There was a reason he was called the dominator

These guys are almost unbeatable and locked as the top 5 ever.

Then there's still players I have missed like Harvey, Plante, etc who also revolutionized the game.

McDavid may go down as a top 10, but unlikely to break top 5.

If McDavid wins the cup this year, he’s automatically 5th. He probably passes all the guys you’ve mentioned (save for 99/4/9/66) anyways, cup or not.

 

[HFpapi]

Like what? List what he's done exactly.

Recency bias. Doesn't even have a Cup let alone a Conn Smythe yet.

I was going to do my best to answer you this...

Who won the Art Ross this year? McDavid is not even clearly dominant on his own team let alone the whole league, let alone of all time.

.... But then I read this. The above + calling McDavid a "top 100 player, maybe top 30," sometimes you just know there's no point in trying.

 

[crowfish]

Best highlight reel of all time....I'm speechless. Nicest goal...

By the way, the above stuff you list is nothing compared guys like Hasek or Orr, let alone Lemieux or Gretzky.

By they way, when you say stuff like this:

• Only player besides Mario, Gretzky with multiple 160+ point seasons (regular season + playoffs

I can see how you need to move the goalposts to fit your guy and still not beat either of those guys. You remember the topic is that McDavid as 2nd best of all time. If you list Gretzky and Lemieux, that's two players right there and these guys were scoring 200 points in just regular season, not "160+".

Your argument above all says he's a top 100 player, not a top 2 player of all time. McDavid didn't revolutionize any game, he "arguably" is sometimes the best player in the league currently. No one is making any new rules to counteract his game/team. He even lost a Hart to a player on his own team.
Bobby Orr did it ALL as a defenseman and did it by the time he was 24 years old while revolutionizing the NHL forever. That's A guy that needs to be beat for the #2 spot.

And any argument about Cap era anything...keep in mind Gretzky played for Pocklington while Mario Lemieux played in Pittsburgh, who when he joined the team, they were the Nordiques of hockey and after he was gone, they dumped Jagr and then went bankrupt. Neither of those guys had a rich owner like Katz to play for.

• 3 Harts

You know there are multiple players who have 3 or more Harts. And many of them are not "top five of all time" let alone #2. Ovechkin, Shore, Morenz, Clarke, heck Gordie Howe had SIX Hart Trophies in his time in the NHL, not counting WHA. Orr won three in a row as a defenseman. Hasek won two back to back as a goalie. McDavid never even won back to back, that's how "dominant" he has (or hasn't) been.



Wait...are you actually trying to prove my point rather than argue it?

There is so much nonsense in this reply that I am not going to waste time trying to explain to you how terrible your takes are. If you read a list of accolades that McDavid only shares with the 3 or 4 best players in history and conclude that my post proves he is a top 100 player you are either a troll or mentally impaired.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

I use top 100 because I haven't done the analysis of where he exactly would fall especially with his career still ongoing. Who knows? Maybe top 30? Maybe higher?

As for #2, McDavid is not in the conversation so far and has not shown the trajectory. A better question is, will he be all time #2 in his franchise, let alone all time. That franchise has had an insane number of first ballot HOFers.

And Orr has the injury thing plus is competing as a defenseman. He won three in a row. If you're saying he lost to a HOF center as a rookie...I don't buy that as a viable argument; if you're saying he lost it late in his short career, I also don't buy it as a viable argument against McDavid. Why? Because Draisaitl won his during McDavid's peak/prime.



Reading comprehension, bro. I say speechless to the one line he said that I didn't even bother arguing.

“maybe top 30” would even have Nathaniel skywalker laughing his ass off if he wasn’t in hiding

 

[Rorschach]

“Maybe top 30” is not a serious opinion at all, this is just trolling

That's where he's at right now, zero Cups, already 27, not head and shoulders above his peers, there are some players at that level. If McDavid retired today, that's where about he would be.

There is so much nonsense in this reply that I am not going to waste time trying to explain to you how terrible your takes are. If you read a list of accolades that McDavid only shares with the 3 or 4 best players in history and conclude that my post proves he is a top 100 player you are either a troll or mentally impaired.

Ok, Mr. best highlight reel.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

That's where he's at right now, zero Cups, already 27, not head and shoulders above his peers, there are some players at that level. If McDavid retired today, that's where about he would be.

You’re a funny guy for real

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

That's where he's at right now, zero Cups, already 27, not head and shoulders above his peers, there are some players at that level. If McDavid retired today, that's where about he would be.



Ok, Mr. best highlight reel.

So if he wins 4 games out of the next 7 (in the most luck driven major sport) this will magically catipult his ability as a player into what position overall? If you had to put a number to it

 

[thegazelle]

I think as time passes, people tend to either forget or perhaps the past player's accomplishments have less current impact / effect, as people tend to think of the here and now, which is why oftentimes on many lists of greatest of all time for many sports and even in the music and movies space, contemporary artists and athletes tend to be over-represented. Gretzky's accomplishments were so head and shoulders above everyone else, that it will be a long time before his accomplishments face any amount of diminishment. His total goals in one season, total assists in one season and total points in one season, not to mention things like 50 goals in 39 games and a plethora of other achievements - how incredible those numbers are will keep his name as GOAT and rightfully so.

Lemieux I think has to, a degree, been given the historical short end of the stick, due to a shortened career due to health. Those of us who saw his greatness as it happened, as with Gretzky, are in awe. Even so, many of my contemporaries, would diminish Howe, due to not living during his era of greatness.

I think McDavid definitely has a case for top five in history. I wouldn't put him at number 2, but that's just me. I think if McDavid wins the Cup and a Conn Smythe, that will continue to elevate him to the greatest players echelon. We also don't know how his health will hold up long term. Yes, he is healthy now, but anything can happen in life.

That said, I don't think there's any player in recent memory who can skate as fluidly as him, make dazzling plays that leaves fans awestruck, and who conjures up memories of the personification of skill. As an Oiler fan, I am just happy to have seen what will no doubt be two of the greatest historic players of all time. Where McDavid ranks, people can debate back and forth. I am just relishing and enjoying watching him make history.

 

[LTIR]

Funny stuff... I am an Oilers fan and this is far from truth.

 

[crowfish]

That's where he's at right now, zero Cups, already 27, not head and shoulders above his peers, there are some players at that level. If McDavid retired today, that's where about he would be.



Ok, Mr. best highlight reel.

The best highlight reel is not even a remotely hot take. Just use your eyeballs lol.

I would recommend using your eyes & brain going forward to improve on some of your horrendous takes. Then you won't have to embarrass yourself by publicly saying that McDavid is a top 100 player right now.