Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[KevinRedkey]

Is there even a consensus #2 to dethrone?

Ask 10 people and you'll get 3-4 different answers. For that reason, I think McDavid could tun the 'big 4' into 'big 5' and potentially be ranked #2 by some - but I doubt it'll ever be close to concrete.

 

[TheLegend27]

Few were as a dangerous as Lemeux one on one. An amazing player. McDavid talent wise is close but a totally different player. So was Gretzky, Crosby, Lafleur, Orr, Howe, Beliveau. Every era has a player that simply stands out. McDavid is the best of the current era replacing an aging Crosby. Will Bedard be better than McDavid?

I don’t think Bedard will be better than Mcdavid. Skating is the most important “attribute” in the game and McDavid might just be the greatest skater ever. Bedard will score more goals and might win the Art Ross by his 5th season but that’s mainly because McDavid will be 32 and declining.

 

[geebster]

Tough to be better than Orr or Lemieux. He would have to put up multiple cups and produce like he did last year for at least a few more years. It's tough to put him top 2 without it. He might be the "best" forward to have played since he has skills and strength and speed that guys in past eras didn't have but that's an unfair way to compare eras.

 

[HFpapi]

Is there even a consensus #2 to dethrone?

Ask 10 people and you'll get 3-4 different answers. For that reason, I think McDavid could tun the 'big 4' into 'big 5' and potentially be ranked #2 by some - but I doubt it'll ever be close to concrete.

Well there's a consensus #2-4 so in order to be #2 he'd had to dethrone all of Orr, Mario, Howe. Doesn't really matter which way you want to order them if he needs to surpass all 3 does it?

People are sometimes slow to accept change. There is a lot of resistance in this thread to the idea that McDavid could be #2 but people always get their respect eventually as time wears on. I hated when I knew I couldn't deny anymore that McDavid was better than Crosby back when Crosby was still viewed as the best in the league. I was a Crosby stan and hadn't built up any love for McDavid. Now years later you can't help but acknowledge McDavid's greatness surpasses even Crosby's best.

I think when McDavid is 18 seasons deep and his career is winding down and he's just an old legend instead of the new king and has (maybe) 8 scoring titles and 6 MVP's and 2000 points and maybe a cup or two and Smythe and maybe an Olympic gold medal under his belt it will be obvious that he's the consensus #2. It will just be impossible to deny.

That's obviously a lot of things I just awarded McDavid prematurely but I don't think there's a single unrealistic thing about that premonition and that's what I'm staking my claim on.

 

[HFpapi]

And to add to the above:

I admit that McDavid not winning the Ross this season (and likely not the Hart either as a result) puts a small dent in my lofty career projections for him.

You gotta win your age 27 season scoring race when it's a full season and Mack and Kuch both beating him outright makes it less of a sure thing he wins the next few titles.

That said, he was clearly injured to start the season, fell 22 points back of the lead and still managed to take the lead back temporarily. Now he's looking like he might become the 3rd ever player to score 40 points in a playoff season.

So even in a year where he finishes 3rd in RS scoring, I think he still proved he's by far the greatest offensive force in the league. Noone else comes back from a 22 point deficit to retake the lead. I fully expect McDavid to win min. 3 of the next 5 Rosses.

 

[johnnybbadd]

McDavid is on a level on his own when it comes to skill and skating. I can’t put him ahead of Mario with the eye test and peak. Gretzky is already safe because no one will approach his point totals in our lifetimes. I really do believe that this is the best time to play offence in the league. The players are protected more than ever. All powerplays start in the offensive zone. You can stand in front of the net without getting hacked at all game. Hits that were legal even 5 years ago are going away. The goaltending has regressed from the Crosby and Ovechkin prime era also. It is a perfect storm right now for offensive production. We are definitely seeing one of the all time greats though with McDavid.

 

[FissionFire]

People severely underrate Howe’s peak. Only Gretzky peaked higher. Lemieux is the weakest link of the top 4 and the only player McDavid has any shot of surpassing.

 

[Regal]

People severely underrate Howe’s peak. Only Gretzky peaked higher. Lemieux is the weakest link of the top 4 and the only player McDavid has any shot of surpassing.

That’s pretty debatable imo. Howe only peaked higher if you ignore games played for Lemieux, and don’t make any kind of era adjustment for his 4 peak years happening in an all Canadian league in a relatively weak post war environment. The fact that Howe wasn’t close to that dominance after those 4 years suggests this might be the case as well since Lemieux was at that level much longer.

But even if Howe is seen as number 2, I don’t see how how McDavid can’t pass him either considering he already has 2 seasons that are pretty comparable to Howe’s 4 peak years, so far has been just as if not more consistent and was elite from a younger age. He already has more Art Ross trophies and more Harts than Howe at the same age and will probably lead the playoffs in scoring by two times by 27, same as Howe. If he can have another 2-3 years at his ‘21/‘23 level, which wouldn’t be unusual considering he was at nearly 2 points per game again after his injury start, stay healthy and age well, he could definitely make a case. Though I doubt he could ever get to a point where it’s consensus

 

[Hockeyholic]

He hasn't surpassed Beliveau, Richard, Jagr, Hull, Crosby, Lidstrom, Bourque, Ovi, and Mikita yet imo.

So not anywhere near Wayne, Bobby, Mario, Gordie, and Hasek.

 

[Mitts]

Not a f***ing chance, there I said it.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

He hasn't surpassed Beliveau, Richard, Jagr, Hull, Crosby, Lidstrom, Bourque, Ovi, and Mikita yet imo.

So not anywhere near Wayne, Bobby, Mario, Gordie, and Hasek.

Mikita over McDavid is definitely one of the takes of all time

 

[KCC]

Not a f***ing chance, there I said it.

I think if he hits 2,000 points for his career which no one has done outside of #99 and can win a cup or two then I would say yes. Because on top of that he'll have God knows how many individual awards by the time he hangs it up. He's currently at 5 art ross, a rocket and a hart trophy and he's only 27. We will see in a decade I guess assuming he's healthy and still playing. lol

 

[norrisnick]

That’s pretty debatable imo. Howe only peaked higher if you ignore games played for Lemieux, and don’t make any kind of era adjustment for his 4 peak years happening in an all Canadian league in a relatively weak post war environment. The fact that Howe wasn’t close to that dominance after those 4 years suggests this might be the case as well since Lemieux was at that level much longer.

But even if Howe is seen as number 2, I don’t see how how McDavid can’t pass him either considering he already has 2 seasons that are pretty comparable to Howe’s 4 peak years, so far has been just as if not more consistent and was elite from a younger age. He already has more Art Ross trophies and more Harts than Howe at the same age and will probably lead the playoffs in scoring by two times by 27, same as Howe. If he can have another 2-3 years at his ‘21/‘23 level, which wouldn’t be unusual considering he was at nearly 2 points per game again after his injury start, stay healthy and age well, he could definitely make a case. Though I doubt he could ever get to a point where it’s consensus

Because there is more to the game of hockey besides just scoring and Howe is about as well-rounded of a hockey player as has ever existed.

Pretend that neither player ever scored a point. Who would provide more to their team?

 

[Regal]

Because there is more to the game of hockey besides just scoring and Howe is about as well-rounded of a hockey player as has ever existed.

Pretend that neither player ever scored a point. Who would provide more to their team?

Sure Howe is more rounded physically and defensively, but at a certain point I’m not sure how much more value that can add for a winger when we’re talking about players at this caliber of offense when they’re already heavily tilting the ice. I’d say if McDavid can have a similar offensive career with more competition, it might be seen as a big enough advantage to make up for the all around game. Obviously still a long way off though.

 

[Albatros]

If Howe played today he'd most likely play center, the game just was different in the past.

 

[eviohh26]

How? He isn't even going down to be better than Crosby ATM .

 

[El Travo]

Because there is more to the game of hockey besides just scoring and Howe is about as well-rounded of a hockey player as has ever existed.

Pretend that neither player ever scored a point. Who would provide more to their team?

I mean, when the whole purpose of the game is to score more goals than the opposition that seems like a pretty major thing to leave out.

 

[authentic]

How? He isn't even going down to be better than Crosby ATM .

He isn't?

 

[eviohh26]

He isn't?

Not in my books. Crosby is a winner.

 

[dj Mahoney]

Howe was fitter/stronger than 99% of players who played today

Same with Bobby Hull

There was a reason these guys dominated hockey (NHL + WHA) for 20 - 30 years.

Howe would easily be a top 6 player in this NHL in his career primes along with

Gretzky
Lemiuex
Mcdavid
Orr
Crosby

Hull would be in the next tier with

OV
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Matthews
Mack

We certainly cant be talking playoffs with Little Austin on the list ?

 

[authentic]

Not in my books. Crosby is a winner.

Seems a bit premature to count McDavid out from being a winner when he's playing in the Stanley Cup finals now.

 

[WalterLundy]

4-5 Harts, 5 or more Ted Lindsays, 7 scoring titles and 2K points gets him the 2 spot. His peak is already turning big 4 into big 5. With a career like that I’d say that it would have to rank second behind only Gretzky who isn’t even remotely catchable. Orr and Lemieux probably will have the higher absolute peak unless McDavid finds another gear (possible) but even with that said his trajectory for career will have him second.

 

[beowulf]

How? He isn't even going down to be better than Crosby ATM .

It's never easy trying to predict where a player will end up all time especially when comparing to players that are retired or getting close like Crosby. Crosby has done more so far in his career and both had a high scoring "side kick" in Malkin and Draisaitl so I think putting McDavid ahead of guys like Lemieux, Howe and Crosby is a little premature still.

 

[PaulD]

He might end up 1st if he passes/gets close to Gretzky in Rosses/Harts/Lindsay

But the best and greatest player to play the sport of hockey is Mario Lemieux

The 2001 season is for me his most amazing. 76 pts in 43 games in the dead puck era coming off three years of being retired. He was better than 2023 Mcdavid by a significant margin

Mcdavid would be Draisaitl to Lemieux

Agreed

It's never easy trying to predict where a player will end up all time especially when comparing to players that are retired or getting close like Crosby. Crosby has done more so far in his career and both had a high scoring "side kick" in Malkin and Draisaitl so I think putting McDavid ahead of guys like Lemieux, Howe and Crosby is a little premature still.

Indeed it is.

 

[HFpapi]

It's never easy trying to predict where a player will end up all time especially when comparing to players that are retired or getting close like Crosby. Crosby has done more so far in his career and both had a high scoring "side kick" in Malkin and Draisaitl so I think putting McDavid ahead of guys like Lemieux, Howe and Crosby is a little premature still.

Not individually he hasn't. Crosby has won more team awards in a team sport.

As I said earlier in this thread, McDavid these last 3 playoffs has played as well (maybe better) than Crosby ever has in the playoffs so I don't see why you'd hold playoff perfomances against McDavid from an individual standpoint. 84 points in 46 games (1.82 PPG) these last 3 playoff runs. What more can one player do?

Beyond team awards McDavid has 3x Hart vs 2 for Crosby. 5x Ross vs 2 for Crosby. 4x Lindsay vs 3 for Crosby. Trails Crosby 2 vs 1 in Rockets but McDavid is 27 and in his prime and Crosby's award winning days are over.

McDavid 3rd highest PPG ever behind 99 & 66. (Obviously will drop as he ages but might even go up first).

Obviously Crosby was severely impacted by injuries in his prime but that is part of the equation when evaluating careers. You don't get credit for the games you didn't play, the points you didn't score, and the awards you didn't win.