Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[yeaher]

Orr, Lemieux, Howe, and Gretzky will not be unseated by anyone currently playing in the NHL. Recency bias is normal in sports, so I get the allure of saying McDavid is the 2nd best of all time.

Orr completely redefined an entire position and is the best all-around player I've ever watched. Lemieux is the most gifted offensive player in league history. It's hard to fathom what both players would have accomplished beyond what they did had they not have to deal with major injuries/health problems.

Howe is the second best all-around player ever. Gretzly is right behind Mario when it comes to offensive prowess.

McDavid is not anything special as an all-around player and he is not as good offensively as either Mario or Wayne. No way he will end up top-4 ever.

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

 

[WalterLundy]

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

Essentially the argument from big Mario Lemieux fans (I am one that doesn’t do this by the way) is that his size and skill combo we haven’t seen before or since. I can agree with that to a degree but when I get off the train is when we look at actual offensive production whether raw totals or adjustments for peak, prime or even sample sizes of games played or ages. When you look there it’s Gretzky every time.

When people say Mario Lemieux is the most offensively talented player ever I don’t get upset because I usually recognize that fans are talking about his size and skill combo. It’s when production is brought up that I can’t get behind because it isn’t in his favor there. To me a distinction has to be made and there rarely is. Definitely second in that production regard though.

 

[CTHabsfan]

Did you watch? You can't even compare what Mario had to endure vs beloved wayney

Did I compare what Lemieux and Gretzky had to endure?

FYI, I have a Mario Lemieux jersey. I do not have a jersey of "beloved wayney".

 

[Fourier]

Doesn’t mean he didn’t get hit ever, but who are we kidding here?

He didn't get hit that much because he was incredibly illusive, not because guys did not try. Part of this was his ridiculous vision and on ice awareness. The other was his ability to change direction almost instantaneous.

One thing Gretzky had to deal with more than anyone I have ever seen is players being assigned to do nothing but shadow him wherever he went on the ice. Great players will get this but not to the extent that Gretzky did. Today teams rely more on systems than on shadows. But of all of the top players today, McDavid probably gets assigned shadows more than anyone by a fair bit.

 

[paracord]

LOL at Crosby being top 5. He's great but at no point in his career has he ever demonstrated that belongs in the top 10 players ever, let alone top 5. McDavid is light years ahead of pre-injury Crosby at his peak, let alone the Sid who has had two 100 pt seasons in 10 years.

If your only argument for a player is "but era," then just make the GOAT list an era based thing and don't even compare past players to current. Otherwise, you need to take into account the fact that modern day players are beneficiaries of yesterday's innovations. It's like saying Einstein wouldn't even be a top 10 physicist today because "bro the guys today are light years ahead." There has to be consideration for how great a player was relative to both their competition at the time, and to the innovations that pre-existed them in the game.

Gretzky is nowhere near the physical talent of McDavid. But Gretzky also fundamentally BROKE the game, and as a result produced numbers that are mind boggling. That factors into the argument.

Similarly, it's even more ridiculous to act like Sid and McD are near each other because "Crosby played in the lower scoring era...of 10 years ago." THEY ARE PEERS. They played in the same era. Crosby came in at a time when players just weren't as good as they are now. The generation of MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov, etc. are fundamentally better hockey players than the mid-00s draft class. Nothing about the way the game is played has changed, no major rule changes, goaltending is different but similar...the difference is that a few draft classes happened that involved ungodly talent. That's all. No different from Gretz and Mario being worlds better than dudes who were drafted from 70-78.

So I don't wanna hear about Sid and Ovie being somewhere near McDavid in greatness. Those guys are more comparable to Sakic, Forsberg, and Lindros. Which is amazing. Top 15 players all time type talent. I'm still taking Jagr, Messier, and Yzerman as rounding out the middle to bottom of the top 10.

Wayne, Mario, McDavid, and Orr are in a class of their own. If we're including goalies, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are the Wayne (Roy broke the game) and Mario (Hasek the ultimate talent) of goaltending. No one before or since is comparable.

As for winning the Cup, McDavid isn't 35 years old. He has time. Criticizing him for no Cups when he has played on trash teams up until now isn't fair. Past Oiler teams had ZERO depth. He didn't walk onto a squad with Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury on it. It was him and Drai and the bargain bin for a long time. That's finally changing.

Crosby not even in the top 10? Wow. Take Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr as 1-4 in whatever order you want. Who are the other 6 players who bump Crosby out of the top 10?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Very fair assessment
I think the Crosby losing to Benn is cherry picking. If McDavid has an off year next year and Elias Pederson wins the Ross I don’t know how much would change for me

Good chance McDavid would have lost the Art Ross to Huberdeau if he missed 5 games too like Crosby did that year

 

[paracord]

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

The same way Barry Sanders or Jim Brown have way less yards than Emmitt Smith but aren't automatically discounted as being less great. Macro, career-long stats have a component of a player's durability, as well as his being on a good team for a long time.

No one is questioning that Lemieux was anywhere near as durable as Gretzky. But look at his per-game totals and you'll see that Lemieux is the only player that is in Gretzky's realm. There's a huge gap below those two.

Gretzky's career will almost certainly never be eclipsed in terms of pure production, but peak vs. peak is another story.

Good chance McDavid would have lost the Art Ross to Huberdeau if he missed 5 games too like Crosby did that year

No doubt Crosby missed out on two Ross's and maybe Harts during his injuries, or at least was the odds-on favorite for sure.. Luck plays a part in all of these things to some degree. That's why you can't just look at only stats or hardware. There's a human element that needs to play in too.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The same way Barry Sanders or Jim Brown have way less yards than Emmitt Smith but aren't automatically discounted as being less great. Macro, career-long stats have a component of a player's durability, as well as his being on a good team for a long time.

No one is questioning that Lemieux was anywhere near as durable as Gretzky. But look at his per-game totals and you'll see that Lemieux is the only player that is in Gretzky's realm. There's a huge gap below those two.

Gretzky's career will almost certainly never be eclipsed in terms of pure production, but peak vs. peak is another story.


No doubt Crosby missed out on two Ross's and maybe Harts during his injuries, or at least was the odds-on favorite for sure.. Luck plays a part in all of these things to some degree. That's why you can't just look at only stats or hardware. There's a human element that needs to play in too.

Ive always liked that in 07-08 he showed of avenged his injury sprain. Was tied for the lead after 45 games. Comes back and leads the playoffs in scoring. All in all crosby had 99 points in 73 games 1.35 ppg. Ovechkin had 1.37. It would have been extremely close

 

[HFpapi]

I like to bump this thread every now and again.

Off to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Second time in three seasons with a 30+ point playoff run.

He's guaranteed at least 4 more games. Needs 5 assists to tie (6 to break) Gretzkys all-time record for assists in a playoff year. Has a very real chance of joining Gretzky & Lemieux as the only players to ever hit 40+ in a playoff year.

He's only 27 years old and has 106 playoff points (in 67 games) and will hit 1000 RS points very early into next season.

Must be getting harder and harder for the people in this thread who dug in their heels and said he'll NEVER break into the big 4. No matter what. Not possible they said.

Howe played in an all-Canadian league in the 1950's when some players needed a summer job to pay the bills. Orr played like half a career (650 games) and Mario less than 1000.

You're telling me if Connor keeps doing this for 7-8 more years he has no chance to go down as #2?

 

[Bradely]

He’s honestly the most gifted player to ever play.

He’ll never touch Gretzky’s records but in terms of just pure hockey ability he has a very good case as being the most talented player ever.

It’ll be a “Big 5“ by the time his career is done.

Agree he is a generational player, extremely talented. Regarding talented player's, case with Lemieux and Orr.

In the moderne hockey, where speed is a fundamental aspect of today's game, he will be really difficult to find another gifted Macdavid player. He is the best combination of eye coordination, hockey IQ and speed.

I am not sure if 97 current style wouldn't be an issue in 1980's hockey..... IMO, case could be set for him to be a victim of a Paul Kariya type of hit in the 80's and 90's.

 

[The Shadow]

Agree he is a generational player, extremely talented. Regarding talented player's, case with Lemieux and Orr.

In the moderne hockey, where speed is a fundamental aspect of today's game, he will be really difficult to find another gifted Macdavid player. He is the best combination of eye coordination, hockey IQ and speed.

I am not sure if 97 current style wouldn't be an issue in 1980's hockey..... IMO, case could be set for him to be a victim of a Paul Kariya type of hit in the 80's and 90's.

McDavid didn’t even win the scoring title this year at age 27.

The thing that made Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux the best ever is how much more dominant they were to their peers

We are not seeing that with McDavid consistently. No slight on him btw. He is the best in the world currently but not at the level those guys were.

Jagr said it in a quote recenlty. People don’t realize just how good Lemieux was. No matter how good Jagr got he always knew he’d never be the best on the team. And Jagr is top 5-8 all time

 

[shaner82]

I like to bump this thread every now and again.

Off to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Second time in three seasons with a 30+ point playoff run.

He's guaranteed at least 4 more games. Needs 5 assists to tie (6 to break) Gretzkys all-time record for assists in a playoff year. Has a very real chance of joining Gretzky & Lemieux as the only players to ever hit 40+ in a playoff year.

He's only 27 years old and has 106 playoff points (in 67 games) and will hit 1000 RS points very early into next season.

Must be getting harder and harder for the people in this thread who dug in their heels and said he'll NEVER break into the big 4. No matter what. Not possible they said.

Howe played in an all-Canadian league in the 1950's when some players needed a summer job to pay the bills. Orr played like half a career (650 games) and Mario less than 1000.

You're telling me if Connor keeps doing this for 7-8 more years he has no chance to go down as #2?

#2 no. Because you mention Mario played less than 1000 games, but you don't talk about what he did in those 1000 games or what he was up against.

A back so bad he couldn't tie his own shoes or sleep on a mattress. A cancer diagnosis in the middle of his prime. Major hip problems. Countless other injuries. Despite all that, he put up per game numbers similar to Gretzky.

Mario retired for 3 years and lit up the league when he came back.

I could get on board with McDavid being #3, although it's hard to compare him to a Dman.

 

[Bradely]

McDavid didn’t even win the scoring title this year at age 27.

The thing that made Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux the best ever is how much more dominant they were to their peers

We are not seeing that with McDavid consistently. No slight on him btw. He is the best in the world currently but not at the level those guys were.

Jagr said it in a quote recenlty. People don’t realize just how good Lemieux was. No matter how good Jagr got he always knew he’d never be the best on the team. And Jagr is top 5-8 all time

I am ALL sold on Lemieux. He is and still remain for me, the most dominant and talented player (forward) of all time. Orr is the other one in the mixed. ORR was just a man playing with kids.

 

[Toby91ca]

Howe played in an all-Canadian league in the 1950's when some players needed a summer job to pay the bills.

I get the limited completion being just other Canadians at the time, but what’s the relevance of some having to get summer jobs?

 

[HFpapi]

#2 no. Because you mention Mario played less than 1000 games, but you don't talk about what he did in those 1000 games or what he was up against.

A back so bad he couldn't tie his own shoes or sleep on a mattress. A cancer diagnosis in the middle of his prime. Major hip problems. Countless other injuries. Despite all that, he put up per game numbers similar to Gretzky.

Mario retired for 3 years and lit up the league when he came back.

I could get on board with McDavid being #3, although it's hard to compare him to a Dman.

For the record: I love Mario and he might be my favourite player ever.

But now I have to ask. Why do people use stuff like this in his favour? None of these are positives for his career value.

Yes it makes the things he did and the awards he won and the point totals more impressive and adds to his sports legend but none of that is actually good for his career.

Mario's career would be better off if he didn't retire and miss 3 seasons. His career would be better off if he wasn't debilitated by a bad back or didn't have cancer. None of these things make his career better, in fact, from an all-time sense they make it worse. They limited his production and games played.

If we found out today McDavid has been playing all this time with only one kidney it wouldn't suddenly make his trophy case or career any better it would just make it more impressive. But not better. It's an important difference. The career is what it is. 160 points with or without a bad back is still 160 points for the record books.

 

[HFpapi]

I get the limited completion being just other Canadians at the time, but what’s the relevance of some having to get summer jobs?

It helps demonstrate (although crudely I admit) that the league and sport were far less developed back then.

How many people in the world back then were even exposed to hockey at any point in their life? How many people cared about being a pro hockey player? How many parents would push their kids at an early age and take them to 4 ice times a week or sign them up for expensive summer camps? How many kids obsessed about a job that barely paid more than being a factory worker? (For some it paid less).

Now we have 10's of millions of kids vying for 700 jobs that will change their life and their families lives forever. For the upper echelon it means multi-generational wealth.

 

[Rorschach]

Maybe one day he'll be battling Crosby or Ovechkin. But he can't touch the big 4 of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

And that's just the skaters.

 

[HFpapi]

Maybe one day he'll be battling Crosby or Ovechkin. But he can't touch the big 4 of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

And that's just the skaters.

He's already passed Ovechkin my friend.

In fact he's probably passed Crosby too. (And I'm a huge Crosby stan). I don't think it's crazy whatsoever to already anoint McDavid 5th best ever (I have/had Crosby there).

The only argument Crosby has over McDavid at this point is 3 cups and I think you could very much argue McDavid these last three playoff runs has been as good as Crosby ever was in the playoffs so I don't really see why you'd hold that against McDavid too much if their individual playoff performances are on par with each other.

Hockey is a team sport, McDavid can't do much more than he's done in the playoffs.

 

[Foppberg]

He won’t touch top 3.

 

[Kegs]

He is probably the best player ever.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Maybe one day he'll be battling Crosby or Ovechkin. But he can't touch the big 4 of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

And that's just the skaters.

sigh. one day

 

[HFpapi]

He is probably the best player ever.

He has no argument over Gretzky.

Maybe in absolute terms McDavid is the best hockey player ever for the same reason that 100m sprint gold medalists from the 1920 Olympics probably weren't fast enough to make an NCAA track team these days. But in terms of career value and domination over peers (and unlike Orr or Lemieux actually doing it over a full career), Gretzky is untouchable.

Gretz is a top 5 athlete ever, in any sport. What else can you ever possibly do in a sport?

All-time leader in goals, assists, points, playoff points. 4 cups, 10 scoring titles, 9 MVP's. Across 20 (mostly) healthy seasons.

 

[Hockeyholic]

He has to actually win the cup to get into any top five discussion. And this may be his best chance with their cap crunch upcoming.

 

[HFpapi]

He won’t touch top 3.

And why not exactly?

Gretzky is out of reach I think we can all agree.

Mario
Orr
Howe

Which two can he absolutely "not touch?"

Orr: Probably the second highest peak ever but 650 games played is a HUGE indictment on a career. If Bobby's peak is a 10/10 and McDavid's is 9/10 but McDavid plays literally twice as many games, he can't be considered better? I don't get that.

Mario: Mario also severely limited by injuries and missed time. Honestly, comparing offensive peaks, Mario and Connor are like neck and neck with a slight edge to Mario. When you look at era adjusted stats ( I know, I know, they aren't perfect, ok but it's better than comparing raw totals to the 1980's) they are actually very similar. Mario has 6 scorings titles, McDavid with 5 at only 27. Safe bet he ties and likely surpasses him there. Both 3 Harts, again, McDavid only 27.

Howe: I respect an OG of the game but I rate him way less than most of HF. I have him 4th in the big 4 (soon 5th in the big 5). 6 scoring titles in 25 seasons in a purely Canadian league. Never competed against a Russian, Swede, Fin, Czech, German, Slovak, or even American (there were a handful in the league I think in the 50's but no stars. Top 50 in scoring was all Canadian). McDavid peak >> Howe

 

[Deas]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

Yes of course but you can always look at who did best vs his own peers.