Bear of Bad News
"The Worst Guy on the Site" - user feedback
- Sep 27, 2005
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Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time
- Thread starter HFpapi
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Spirits
Avalanche and Vikings
- Jul 12, 2014
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Lmao. So it was a gigantic and major moment in hockey for Bourque but if Mcdavid leaves in FA and wins a cup in NY his legacy would be slightly tarnished? Makes sense.
Spirits
Avalanche and Vikings
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If McDavid wins his first cup in 2037 for a team that didn't draft him, yes it will be a joke. McDavid came into the league as "the Next One". Did Borque? LMAO.
Bear of Bad News
"The Worst Guy on the Site" - user feedback
- Sep 27, 2005
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At this point, I'm convinced that your repeated spelling of "Borque" is an elaborate pranque.
Voight
#winning
We have the Cody Crybabies in the WWE and now the Crosby Crybabies in the NHL.
"Lemieux went untouched is the funniest comment of all time." They abused the piss out of Mario because they couldn't figure him out.
KingDeathMetal
Registered User
LOL at Crosby being top 5. He's great but at no point in his career has he ever demonstrated that belongs in the top 10 players ever, let alone top 5. McDavid is light years ahead of pre-injury Crosby at his peak, let alone the Sid who has had two 100 pt seasons in 10 years.
If your only argument for a player is "but era," then just make the GOAT list an era based thing and don't even compare past players to current. Otherwise, you need to take into account the fact that modern day players are beneficiaries of yesterday's innovations. It's like saying Einstein wouldn't even be a top 10 physicist today because "bro the guys today are light years ahead." There has to be consideration for how great a player was relative to both their competition at the time, and to the innovations that pre-existed them in the game.
Gretzky is nowhere near the physical talent of McDavid. But Gretzky also fundamentally BROKE the game, and as a result produced numbers that are mind boggling. That factors into the argument.
Similarly, it's even more ridiculous to act like Sid and McD are near each other because "Crosby played in the lower scoring era...of 10 years ago." THEY ARE PEERS. They played in the same era. Crosby came in at a time when players just weren't as good as they are now. The generation of MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov, etc. are fundamentally better hockey players than the mid-00s draft class. Nothing about the way the game is played has changed, no major rule changes, goaltending is different but similar...the difference is that a few draft classes happened that involved ungodly talent. That's all. No different from Gretz and Mario being worlds better than dudes who were drafted from 70-78.
So I don't wanna hear about Sid and Ovie being somewhere near McDavid in greatness. Those guys are more comparable to Sakic, Forsberg, and Lindros. Which is amazing. Top 15 players all time type talent. I'm still taking Jagr, Messier, and Yzerman as rounding out the middle to bottom of the top 10.
Wayne, Mario, McDavid, and Orr are in a class of their own. If we're including goalies, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are the Wayne (Roy broke the game) and Mario (Hasek the ultimate talent) of goaltending. No one before or since is comparable.
As for winning the Cup, McDavid isn't 35 years old. He has time. Criticizing him for no Cups when he has played on trash teams up until now isn't fair. Past Oiler teams had ZERO depth. He didn't walk onto a squad with Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury on it. It was him and Drai and the bargain bin for a long time. That's finally changing.
If your only argument for a player is "but era," then just make the GOAT list an era based thing and don't even compare past players to current. Otherwise, you need to take into account the fact that modern day players are beneficiaries of yesterday's innovations. It's like saying Einstein wouldn't even be a top 10 physicist today because "bro the guys today are light years ahead." There has to be consideration for how great a player was relative to both their competition at the time, and to the innovations that pre-existed them in the game.
Gretzky is nowhere near the physical talent of McDavid. But Gretzky also fundamentally BROKE the game, and as a result produced numbers that are mind boggling. That factors into the argument.
Similarly, it's even more ridiculous to act like Sid and McD are near each other because "Crosby played in the lower scoring era...of 10 years ago." THEY ARE PEERS. They played in the same era. Crosby came in at a time when players just weren't as good as they are now. The generation of MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov, etc. are fundamentally better hockey players than the mid-00s draft class. Nothing about the way the game is played has changed, no major rule changes, goaltending is different but similar...the difference is that a few draft classes happened that involved ungodly talent. That's all. No different from Gretz and Mario being worlds better than dudes who were drafted from 70-78.
So I don't wanna hear about Sid and Ovie being somewhere near McDavid in greatness. Those guys are more comparable to Sakic, Forsberg, and Lindros. Which is amazing. Top 15 players all time type talent. I'm still taking Jagr, Messier, and Yzerman as rounding out the middle to bottom of the top 10.
Wayne, Mario, McDavid, and Orr are in a class of their own. If we're including goalies, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are the Wayne (Roy broke the game) and Mario (Hasek the ultimate talent) of goaltending. No one before or since is comparable.
As for winning the Cup, McDavid isn't 35 years old. He has time. Criticizing him for no Cups when he has played on trash teams up until now isn't fair. Past Oiler teams had ZERO depth. He didn't walk onto a squad with Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury on it. It was him and Drai and the bargain bin for a long time. That's finally changing.
Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
There was no need for such a lengthy post. You had us at "LOL".
Naw, he's been more of a W/C hybrid for most of his career. If you are going to bring defense into the conversation then Crosby is part of the conversation (not that he isn't already).
HolyHagelin
Speed? I am speed.
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russ99
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2011
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Definitely in question, you have to understand the era Gretzky played in (and yes I was an Oilers fan then), and the amount of elite talent on his team to set up for all those assists.
Raw numbers, Gretzky is unchallenged. Vision on the ice, Gretzky is unchallenged.
But go back and watch a few games during that era, how defensemen play, how weak goalies are before the butterfly, and then look at today where every player on the ice is at the peak of fitness, defenders aren't just checkers, open ice is at a premium and all goalies would be all-stars back then by technique alone.
Raw numbers, Gretzky is unchallenged. Vision on the ice, Gretzky is unchallenged.
But go back and watch a few games during that era, how defensemen play, how weak goalies are before the butterfly, and then look at today where every player on the ice is at the peak of fitness, defenders aren't just checkers, open ice is at a premium and all goalies would be all-stars back then by technique alone.
WalterLundy
Registered User
No question he had a lot of talent to work with in the mid 80s in Edmonton but what he did in LA from 89-91 before his back was obliterated in 1991 by Suter was better than anyone else at playmaking in league history. Especially the 1991 season. You can take away all of his Edmonton assist years and that year would still be the highest for total assists and assists per game raw totals and era adjusted all time.
The best playmaker by a significant margin in league history no matter the supporting cast. I understand arguments as to why he’s not the best goal scorer ever. For raw totals at his best he is and even era adjusted at his peak he and Lemieux for a 60ish game span are a virtual tie but I wouldn’t push if someone picked a better goal scorer than he.
From seeing Gretzky’s entire career and really studying the numbers (with all of the context that is required) he has the best peak, prime and career ever and is clearly the greatest goat of the major 4 sports. Lemieux being a close second for players I’ve seen at peak.
With all of that said you do make a good point that the game is significantly better now and clearly harder to score in than the 80s and 90s. It’s clearly evident and no matter how well era adjustments are refined it is clear that in todays game it is a big difference when you watch the 2020s vs 80s and 90s. I still believe that if both Gretzky (and Lemieux as well) had the opportunity to grow up now and play in this league with their talents that they’d be the best players in the league but not by anywhere near the margins that they were back then. Gretzky would obviously benefit from the training now and Lemieux would NEED to train because he couldn’t get away with not doing so now.
If you look at the last 6 years and put Gretzky and Lemieux’s best 6 year stretches (82-87 and 88-93 respectively) into 18-19 to 23-24 levels you have Gretzky at 2.00 and Lemieux at 1.81 for ppg. The current top 5 for the span is McDavid at 1.67, Kucherov 1.49, Draisaitl 1.44, MacKinnon 1.43, Panarin 1.27. Just based off of this they’d both clearly be the best but not by as big of a margin over number 3. Even if those numbers aren’t exact and they’d be lower there is still more than enough room for them to both be the best players in the league now.
Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Did you watch? You can't even compare what Mario had to endure vs beloved wayney
4th: Orr.
Edit: I mean McD will be 4th. Can't forget that Orr's still top-3 and always will be (if not #1).
You are saying that when Wayne was hitting 200 points, these players would be averraging these totals: Kucherov 149, Draisaitl 144, MacKinnon 143. That makes no sense.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
If one was to agree with the premise of the OP then.....
this is the 2nd time... that a Toronto kid, playing for Oilers is being talked about like that have never been seen before
this is the 2nd time... that a Toronto kid, playing for Oilers is being talked about like that have never been seen before
WalterLundy
Registered User
Nope not at all what I’m saying actually. The 1.49, 1.44 and 1.43 for Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon are their current point per game averages since 2018-19.
So they are averaging 122, 118 and 117 per 82 games respectively. Gretzky from 81-82 to 86-87 translated to 18-19 to 23-24 is at 2.00 points per game or 164 per 82 games. Mario at his best (87-88 to 92-93) translated to 18-19 to 23-24 is at 1.81 or 148 per 82 games.
McDavid has been at 1.67 ppg for the 18-19 to 23-24 period so he’s at 137 per 82 games. Wayne (and Mario) are still clearly above everyone if they were in this current league environment at their best.
WalterLundy
Registered User
He definitely got mashed some and the Suter hit was horrid (a worse singular hit than many will take with severe implications) but I’ll go to your defense here and say without a doubt Mario dealt with more BS than Gretzky did.
