Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Koivu11]

115 points in 59 games since the coaching change…

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Behind Lemieux?

 

[Derailed75]

Jordan was 28 when he won his first title.

In his 7th season. Also won a national title in college

 

[Yepthatsme]

Sure in 96-97 he put up 122 points in 76 games which adjusted translates to 127 points.

The top 3 this year translates to roughly the same pace as they will end up around 10+ more points adjusted in 6 more games.

Mario was 31 and Kuch is 30.

I find it hilarious you chose that season, when the year prior he put up 161 points in 70 games, as well as 69 goals the year prior. That was coming back from missing a season and a half due to back problems and cancer. Scoring that season was at 3.14
Goals per game. The last 3 years in the NHL have been 3.14, 3.18, and 3.11.

Like you tried to use that season to compare Lemieux to today, when Lemieux was so unhealthy he retired (for the first time) following it. You pretty much just pointed out for everyone that a broken Lemieux is pretty much similar to today’s best players.

Here’s another example. Following that season, he retired. After missing 3 full seasons, he decided to make a comeback at 35. In the peak of the dead puck era, he scored 19 points in his first 8 games, 35 points in his first 18, and would finish the year at a 144 point pace. Coming out of retirement, in the peak of the dead puck era, well passed his prime with a myriad of injuries.

McDavid only has health over Lemieux.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Here’s another example. Following that season, he retired. After missing 3 full seasons, he decided to make a comeback at 35. In the peak of the dead puck era, he scored 19 points in his first 8 games, 35 points in his first 18, and would finish the year at a 144 point pace. Coming out of retirement, in the peak of the dead puck era, well passed his prime with a myriad of injuries.

This is kind of the story of Lemieux after 1995-96.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

In 1996-97 season he is on a 144 point pace through 49 games. 18 points ahead of anyone besides linemate Jagr.

He put up 36 in his final 27 games (109 point pace)

In 1996-97, 2000-01, and 2002-03 he started the year at a torrid pace before playing at a mortal level the last 25-40% of the season. He even slowed down quite a bit in 1995-96.

He just wasn't capable of the grind anymore.

 

[Yepthatsme]

This is kind of the story of Lemieux after 1995-96.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

In 1996-97 season he is on a 144 point pace through 49 games. 18 points ahead of anyone besides linemate Jagr.

He put up 36 in his final 27 games (109 point pace)

In 1996-97, 2000-01, and 2002-03 he started the year at a torrid pace before playing at a mortal level the last 25-40% of the season. He even slowed down quite a bit in 1995-96.

He just wasn't capable of the grind anymore.

Still had all the talent in the world, just not the health. Lemieux with modern day training and medical access would have had his career play out extremely differently.

 

[JukofYork]

If Mario was healthy he would have been #1. Gretzky/Orr #2.

McDavid will probably fall somewhere in 3,4 all time.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Sure in 96-97 he put up 122 points in 76 games which adjusted translates to 127 points.

The top 3 this year translates to roughly the same pace as they will end up around 10+ more points adjusted in 6 more games.

Mario was 31 and Kuch is 30.

Sure and the dead puck era followed the 94-95 lockout so why didn't you use the season prior to your given example in 95-96 when Mario put up 69 goals and 161 points in just 70 games? Doing this while coming off back surgery and missing the entire prior season and 3/4 of the season before that.

Jagr finished 2nd that year, 12 points behind Lemieux while playing 12 more games. Sakic was 3rd, 41 points back playing 12 more games also.

Don't even get me started on when he destroyed the league in 60 games coming off his cancer treatment.

We can agree to not agree. There's little chance Lemieux wouldn't run over a league with obstruction removed. He did it in a more physical league with back issues.

 

[sdf]

Conor Mcdavid will... go... down

 

[jigglysquishy]

Still had all the talent in the world, just not the health. Lemieux with modern day training and medical access would have had his career play out extremely differently.

He didn't take advantage of the training available to him in 1995.

It was a major factor in his 1997 retirement. He didn't have the work ethic to keep up his training program.

It's why he kept his PP dominance until 2003, but lost his EV dominance in 1993.

 

[Soundwave]

In his 7th season. Also won a national title in college

Does it make a difference? He was older than McDavid is now. Don’t think it would have made one lick of difference if he had joined the Bulls in 1982 instead of 84 and just skipped college.

Those Bulls teams weren’t ready to win until 1991.

 

[cupface52]

Still had all the talent in the world, just not the health. Lemieux with modern day training and medical access would have had his career play out extremely differently.

Lemieux played in the 90s. Not the 60s or 70s. Lemieux didn't take advantage of 90s training, what makes you think he'd take advantage of today's training.

Mario had the talent, but he lacked the drive of a Orr/Gretzky/Crosby/McDavid. For Lemieux it was more about proving to be the best rather than improving to be the best.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Sure and the dead puck era followed the 94-95 lockout

The dead puck era didn't start after the 1994 lockout. 1994-95 itself was still decently high scoring. 1995-96 was absolutely high scoring and a PP fest.

1996 was a higher scoring season than anything from consolidation to WW2 and post-WW2 to 1972. It was a higher scoring year than anything 1997 to 2022.

1997 was a bit of a transition year but by 1998 it was full DPE.

It would be wholly inaccurate to call 1995-96 DPE.

Scoring is a lot more than just GPG. PP time and scoring distribution play a factor too. But 1996 is within the 25 highest scoring seasons of post WW2 NHL.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

no.
orr, howe, mario, and 12 others before kyle "don't call me mcdavid" connor.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Seriously though, McDavid suffers from 2 things:

1. Too many Connors in the league at the same time.
2. Lack of a definitive first and last name.

 

[wetcoast]

You’re talking about today’s commitment to defense when it’s currently more run-and-gun than any era aside from the 80s.

5’10" defensemen going up and down the ice, mid-tier players who score 50 goals, and penalties actually getting called for holding and interferences. Lemieux would torch today’s league.

He was also well on his way out in 97 after coming back from cancer and going through several surgeries for his back problems and herniated disc.

I hear all of this and its sounds good except it's lazy.

PPO across the league was at 336 per team in 96-97 and last season it was 252 and trending to around the same amount.

I guess your Zach Hyman is a mid tier 50 goal scorer eh?

I watched hockey in the 70s and 80s and plenty of not so great guys scored alot the game was very sloppy and even for most of Marios actual playing career that was the trend.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

For me, the three best hockey players of all time are Orr, Howe and Gretzky. All three changed the way the game is played and the sport adapted to their skillset and technique.

Lemieux was the most talented player I've ever watched. The legend of him being as talented as he was, as skilled as he was while seemingly treating the sport as a hobby is mind-boggling.

I haven't read through this thread but I would guess there's a ton of posters saying that McDavid needs Cups. I would agree with that as well.

 

[crowfish]

In his 7th season. Also won a national title in college

Are we now holding it against McDavid that the Erie Otters didn't win? Lol. Stop the madness!

 

[Derailed75]

Are we now holding it against McDavid that the Erie Otters didn't win? Lol. Stop the madness!

We are holding the fact the McDavid hasn't lead a team to a championship against him yes. That happens in every sport, you have to win a championship to be considered the best ever until then he's going to be behind other greats that have won.

Anointing him the greatest of all time based on regular season number is the madness!

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Are we now holding it against McDavid that the Erie Otters didn't win? Lol. Stop the madness!

It is an odd coincidence that he's been a great player at every level and his team had never won, even in juniors with all the other future NHLers he played with at Erie. Certainly raises the question of whether his point totals are reflective of his team impact

 

[winnipegger]

When the Oilers win the cup for the next 2 or 3 seasons yes McDavid will be in the top 4. Maybe even top 3.

 

[jigglysquishy]

It is an odd coincidence that he's been a great player at every level and his team had never won, even in juniors with all the other future NHLers he played with at Erie. Certainly raises the question of whether his point totals are reflective of his team impact

He did in the 2016 World Championships.

 

[Spirits]

We are holding the fact the McDavid hasn't lead a team to a championship against him yes. That happens in every sport, you have to win a championship to be considered the best ever until then he's going to be behind other greats that have won.

Same reason Dan Marino is never mentioned as an all-time great. No one cares if a guy can't win it all.

 

[Fantomas]

I am, like, in an alternate dimension in which Bobby Orr doesn't exist?

 

[sdf]

Conor Mcdavid will... go... down