Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[McRpro]

The no Cups arguememt doesn’t hold water. The Buffalo Sabres Dominik Hasek was the best goaltender to ever play the game and that was before winning 2 on the stacked Red Wings. At the end the Cups are a team achievement. Even those mentioning the lack of Cups are saying he should leave Edmonton as the organization has “held” him back from winning. Oh, so you’re saying Edmontons lack of Stanley Cups isn’t at all due to McDavid himself? Thanks for proving said point.

He’s not yet top 4. If his production continues into his mid 30s he will be the clear cut #5 and probably a really good argument for being top3. I can’t see him passing Gretzky and Lemieux.

I tried reading thru the whole thread but tapped out at someone saying Mario was #4. No chance he’s behind Howe. Just get real

I tapped out when someone said Lemieux was "as big and strong as Lindros, he just didn't play that style of game".

Arguing that Howe > Lemieux is certainly not some ridiculous statement. Until 15 years ago or so, Lemieux was firmly ranked at #4 on most pundits lists.

 

[HFpapi]

This is how I know you just won’t give the player a fair shake.

Because he’s flirting with a 6th Art Ross, 8th consecutive top 2 finish in both raw points and PPG, has 3 Harts, what will be 3 additional finalist nominations + 2 additional top 5 all consecutive, has 4 Lindsays, drops 100+ points virtually every year, is currently 3rd in all-time PPG and building the kind of buffer which could never see him drop back below Orr again, had a 153 point season in today’s environment, and follows it up with a 100+ assist season to be.

What has he ever done? Come on now. Nearly everything he does lately seems to come with the caveat “other than Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc.”

You’re close-minded if you can’t conceive of a timeline where this player accomplishes enough to be ranked ahead of everyone but Gretzky, especially with people who favor both talent and longevity, with minimal what if nonsense.

Maybe it doesn’t happen, but he is the first legitimate threat to breaking up the Big Four as it stands.

There's nothing whatsoever far-fetched about projecting McDavid to win 5-6 Harts and 7-9 Art Ross + 2000+ points. Might not happen of course, might not win the Ross or Hart this season and maybe never wins it again, but there's nothing outlandish as of right now about my projections above.

The fact that people are asking "on what basis" can McDavid ever be considered for #2 or even #4 is absurd and proves, as you said, they aren't being serious in their considerations.

 

[Derailed75]

Such an interesting way of thinking.

I think Dominik hasek made his legacy during his years with the sabres, and had he not joined Detroit and won 2 cups behind powerhouse teams (one as a backup) he'd still be regarded as the most dominant goalie to ever play the game because of his 6 vezinas and 2 harts in that 8 season span.

I think the only people who would say hasek wasn't good enough to win a cup if he joined Toronto vs Detroit would be the people that have an agenda.

But you're entitled to your opinion

I get the argument but as Herm Edwards said "you play to win the game". Dan Marino is one of the best QB's of all time but he is behind a handful of guys that he should be ahead of because he never got a ring.

Winning a Championship is a big part of any athletes legacy and without you are a notch down.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

I tapped out when someone said Lemieux was "as big and strong as Lindros, he just didn't play that style of game".

Arguing that Howe > Lemieux is certainly not some ridiculous statement. Until 15 years ago or so, Lemieux was firmly ranked at #4 on most pundits lists.

I think it might be one of those cases where Lemieux is the better player but Howe is the greater player

 

[wetcoast]

No, it isn't lazy. Fact is, Crosby never ever thoroughly dominated the competition like McDavid did. In his 120pts season, he had a paltry 6pts lead over Thornton. His absolute peak was when he had around 70pts in 40 games but went down.

A perfectly healthy McDavid wouldn't lose to the likes of Benn and Sedin, neither would Lemieux. Crosby has been consistent, but the heights of his play in the regular season never reached McDavid's level. Lemieux is a non-starter and forget about Gretzky.

Actually it is pretty lazy a 22 year old crosby lost to a career year from Hank Sedin who played with the perfect linemate by exactly 3 freaking points, while Crosby played with a mishmash of much lesser wingers?

Is that really any worse than a 22 year old McDavid losing to Kuch and his career year and the "luck" that TB's top line ahd in shooting % that year?

In 14-15 Crosby got the mumps and had a bad December and in 5 less games had 3 less points than Benn who along with Seguin went off late in the season in garbage time as Dallas was out of the playoffs.

Once again it happened but how important is it really in the bog scheme of things?

Gordie Howe had his team win the SC without him, the Oilers won the SC 2 years after trading him is that a negative for Gretzky?

as for the heights in regular season play injuries robbed beginning in 10-11 what would have been crosby's prime and he had plenty of elite type of production seasons with 10-11 being the one where he would have smashed the completion if not for an injury and 12-13 he was 4 points out of the Art Ross in missing 12 of the 48 games that season.

He assuredly would have "smashed" the competition that year as well.

Sure offensively he wasn't Wayne or Mario but he also has a better 200 foot game than both of those guys and league dynamics come into play as well right?

 

[YippieKaey]

This argument can be revisited in like 5-6 years. Right now he's nowhere close.

 

[cupface52]

Actually it is pretty lazy a 22 year old crosby lost to a career year from Hank Sedin who played with the perfect linemate by exactly 3 freaking points, while Crosby played with a mishmash of much lesser wingers?

Is that really any worse than a 22 year old McDavid losing to Kuch and his career year and the "luck" that TB's top line ahd in shooting % that year?

In 14-15 Crosby got the mumps and had a bad December and in 5 less games had 3 less points than Benn who along with Seguin went off late in the season in garbage time as Dallas was out of the playoffs.

Once again it happened but how important is it really in the bog scheme of things?

Gordie Howe had his team win the SC without him, the Oilers won the SC 2 years after trading him is that a negative for Gretzky?

as for the heights in regular season play injuries robbed beginning in 10-11 what would have been crosby's prime and he had plenty of elite type of production seasons with 10-11 being the one where he would have smashed the completion if not for an injury and 12-13 he was 4 points out of the Art Ross in missing 12 of the 48 games that season.

He assuredly would have "smashed" the competition that year as well.

Sure offensively he wasn't Wayne or Mario but he also has a better 200 foot game than both of those guys and league dynamics come into play as well right?

Using what ifs for Crosby, you should use them against him as well, Ovechkin missed 9 more games than Crosby that year and equaled him in points.

 

[wetcoast]

1. No I dont think Crosby could achieve anything from awards perspective if he played in the 80s and 90s

He would have no ross+hart+lindsays as they would be going to 99 or 66 assuming both are healthy from 1980 to 2000 (20 likely split between the two)

Oh ya i forgot one either wins a trophy against Mario or Wayne or they are a bum like Yzerman was eh?

Crosby's style of play would be elite in any era, Mario would have problems with today's game and coaches commitment to defense.

He would be 3rd best player behind those two a bit ahead of Jagr, which is how he stacks right now any how (Crosby likely 7th or 8th all time and Jagr 10th or 11th)

Who do you have at 5 and 6th then, I can't think of any player and crosby has had a much better career and is certainly better than Jagr it's not just a "bit ahead"

2. Over 2016 to 2019 Crosby was imo at best 3rd best player. He was behind Mcdavid and Kucherov (Kucherov was 3rd best in 2017, 2018 --> top 5ish, 2019 best). But even if you have him 2nd, he was only 28-31. He should have won ross/hart/lindsay in 2 of these 4 years over Mcdavid if he was the level of player your pretending him to be.

I wouldn't take a scoring winger playing on an elite line over crosby in that time frame and ehcjk a lot of players and coaches would still have taken Crosby over McDavid for the time period but as the decade got older the torch was handed off to McDavid sure.

But if you want to call Crosby really bad in the a couple of playoff years just be consistent with McDavid for this time frame eh?

Same with Kuch he doesn't go off until the following season.

3. Lemieux age 32 to 36 would have been competing higher for the ross/hart/lindsay. We saw 2001 how dominant he was. We saw 2003 again. He missed 3 years where he would run away with all the awards in 1998 to 2000. Jagr got to collect the awards as a result

That's a huge maybe as Mario often didn't play back to back in 67 games that he played in in that time frame and also had already morphed into a PP monster and at ES not so much of an impact.

4. Crosby is not a matchup defensive center. He is a primary offensive, possession based center. Your trying to paint him as an elite defensive shutdown guy. He isnt a guy you can go to shutdown another elite line and find he will be anle to do so unless he is outproducing them by winning his offensive matchups

Crosby doesn't have to be a Bergeron here the comparison is to Mario.

5. Crosby elite consistency in 19 years is less valuable/dominant and impressive than lemieux 11 healthy season consistant dominance.

The funny thing is that Mario doesn't have an 11 years of consistency dominance some years he is scoring points playing pond hockey with little to zero effort in playing a 200 foot game.

His R-on, R-Off and ESGF/ESGA numbers are video game ones.

Like I said upthread plunk Crosby into the NHL in 84-85 he probably scores more points than Mario and is a better overall player as well but probably doesn't reach the video game numbers of Mario later on sure.

 

[Video Nasty]

Using what ifs for Crosby, you should use them against him as well, Ovechkin missed 9 more games than Crosby that year and equaled him in points.

There’s a long list of what if rules for Crosby. A major one has always been that you certainly can’t use what benefits him on one of his peers.

 

[wetcoast]

I think a major difference between Crosby and McDavid is what we’ve been watching unfold in the scoring race this year.

I don’t believe for a second that at any point of his career, Crosby would have made a comeback from 20+ points down against players like Benn, Tavares, or any of the mid-tier stars high in the scoring races during those years, let alone against players like Kucherov and MacKinnon.

He just didn’t have that next gear. We can speculate it’s because of the concussions, but I never saw it from him in reality even before his injury issues.

He would have packed it in after an injury like McDavid had early in the season, that he was required to come back early from because the team continued to sink without him and was in panic mode.

I guess you didn't watch the 10-11 season then eh?

Crosby had a 10 point lead on the Stamkos part of the TB dou when he went down.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

But before MJ comes in with the "bu Malkin" here are his tem mates during the same timeframe.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

11-12 is a bit of a write off with injuries to be sure as his 22 games were in 2 segments but he wasn't done or having a down season it was injuries and he had a line of 22-8-29-37 (+15) on a team where the team high was +21 so we can conclude his impact in the games he did play in which brings us to 12-13 where he was once again crushing it through 35 games when early on he has a freak injury.

12-13 35 games in crosby is killing it once again dragging Kunitz with him with 56 points, Kunitz has 44 and the next non team mate has 43 points (ironically Stamkos once again a single point ahead of his linemate MSL) The Hart "winner that year was Ovechkin who was 19th in points at the time but would go off on some weak divsional teams down the stretch in an unblanced schedule to win the Hart.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

So some bad luck and injuries keep crosby from looking as dominant with trophies and such but outside of Wayne his top 3 in point finishes and Hart finishes even with the injuries has Crosby looking pretty sweet all time.

I think the overall resume from his rookie season through this year and the playoffs, everything in is to why he has a very strong claim to #5 all time and closer to Mario than some people might give him credit for.

 

[wetcoast]

I get the argument but as Herm Edwards said "you play to win the game". Dan Marino is one of the best QB's of all time but he is behind a handful of guys that he should be ahead of because he never got a ring.

Winning a Championship is a big part of any athletes legacy and without you are a notch down.

The Marino example on the surface makes zero sense though if one stops to think about it as in football the QB has zero impact on what his teams defense does when he isn't on the field.

In hockey it's a case of people arguing players from a 6 team league to a 32 team one and it also doesn't make much sense.

It would be one thing if McDavid didn't actually have those 2 excellent individual performances in the playoffs the last 2 years but if he has a couple more of those postseasons and ends up with 2000ish points and double digit Art ross trophies his case for second overall will be extremely strong.

Just like Crosby is adding to his case right now edging closer to Mario.

 

[wetcoast]

There’s a long list of what if rules for Crosby. A major one has always been that you certainly can’t use what benefits him on one of his peers.

The Ovechkin example that year is true but Ovi was suspended for something 100% in his control and the absolutists here are the problem with someone winning and someone not.

3 guys that year, Crosby, Sedin and Ovi were all Hart worthy just like this year but some are going to exaggerate the point both for and against in any year.

Crosby has 7 times been a finalist for the Hart and has 8 times been in the top 3 of scoring.

The lack of Art ross and/or Hart trophies understates exactly how elite he has been and for how long.

 

[Video Nasty]

I guess you didn't watch the 10-11 season then eh?

Crosby had a 10 point lead on the Stamkos part of the TB dou when he went down.

What does this have to do with what I’m saying?

 

[Derailed75]

The Marino example on the surface makes zero sense though if one stops to think about it as in football the QB has zero impact on what his teams defense does when he isn't on the field.

In hockey it's a case of people arguing players from a 6 team league to a 32 team one and it also doesn't make much sense.

It would be one thing if McDavid didn't actually have those 2 excellent individual performances in the playoffs the last 2 years but if he has a couple more of those postseasons and ends up with 2000ish points and double digit Art ross trophies his case for second overall will be extremely strong.

Just like Crosby is adding to his case right now edging closer to Mario.

Counter point, if expansion waters down the talent than even though you have to beat 32 teams to win the Cup you regular season numbers on average are against mush less talented opponents so those lofty numbers don't mean as much.

 

[T REX]

If he wins a cup or two and finishes 2nd in points

Don't see how he's not #2 in the end

 

[wetcoast]

What does this have to do with what I’m saying?

Your comment in the post I responded too here.

He just didn’t have that next gear.

It's pretty clear that he had the next gear, injuries just derailed us seeing it in a full season form.

Counter point, if expansion waters down the talent than even though you have to beat 32 teams to win the Cup you regular season numbers on average are against mush less talented opponents so those lofty numbers don't mean as much.

Yet recent expansion has been far eclipsed by the influx of elite non Canadian talent in the recent past.

That argument holds more water in the 70s, especially with the WHA and even into the 80s but loses steam in the 90s and basically isn't a very good one anymore is it?

 

[cupface52]

I guess you didn't watch the 10-11 season then eh?

Crosby had a 10 point lead on the Stamkos part of the TB dou when he went down.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

But before MJ comes in with the "bu Malkin" here are his tem mates during the same timeframe.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

11-12 is a bit of a write off with injuries to be sure as his 22 games were in 2 segments but he wasn't done or having a down season it was injuries and he had a line of 22-8-29-37 (+15) on a team where the team high was +21 so we can conclude his impact in the games he did play in which brings us to 12-13 where he was once again crushing it through 35 games when early on he has a freak injury.

12-13 35 games in crosby is killing it once again dragging Kunitz with him with 56 points, Kunitz has 44 and the next non team mate has 43 points (ironically Stamkos once again a single point ahead of his linemate MSL) The Hart "winner that year was Ovechkin who was 19th in points at the time but would go off on some weak divsional teams down the stretch in an unblanced schedule to win the Hart.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

So some bad luck and injuries keep crosby from looking as dominant with trophies and such but outside of Wayne his top 3 in point finishes and Hart finishes even with the injuries has Crosby looking pretty sweet all time.

I think the overall resume from his rookie season through this year and the playoffs, everything in is to why he has a very strong claim to #5 all time and closer to Mario than some people might give him credit for.

If you go by what ifs, Ovechkin has 2 more Hart Trophies('09 and '10), 2 more Art Ross, 1 more Rocket, Crosby having 1 less, losing it to Ovechkin.

You're so fixated on Crosby and his what ifs you ignore every other players, especially Mario, the second biggest what if player behind Orr.

'90, Lemieux wins another Art Ross
'94, another Ross and rocket
'01, if Mario came back sooner, another Ross and rocket
'02, another Ross

So like 6 Art Ross and 4 what if Art Ross to Lemieux, and as a bonus, 2 lost to Gretzky and Crosby gets 2 Art Ross and 4 what if.

So in fantasy land, Lemieux basically gets credited for 12, and Crosby gets 6, it's not close.

 

[Video Nasty]

Your comment in the post I responded too here.




It's pretty clear that he had the next gear, injuries just derailed us seeing it in a full season form.


Yet recent expansion has been far eclipsed by the influx of elite non Canadian talent in the recent past.

That argument holds more water in the 70s, especially with the WHA and even into the 80s but loses steam in the 90s and basically isn't a very good one anymore is it?

Having a ten point lead at the half over Stamkos is a next gear? I’ll take your word for it.

 

[wetcoast]

If you go by what ifs, Ovechkin has 2 more Hart Trophies('09 and '10), 2 more Art Ross, 1 more Rocket, Crosby having 1 less, losing it to Ovechkin.

You're so fixated on Crosby and his what ifs you ignore every other players, especially Mario, the second biggest what if player behind Orr.

'90, Lemieux wins another Art Ross
'94, another Ross and rocket
'01, if Mario came back sooner, another Ross and rocket
'02, another Ross

So like 6 Art Ross and 4 what if Art Ross to Lemieux, and as a bonus, 2 lost to Gretzky and Crosby gets 2 Art Ross and 4 what if.

So in fantasy land, Lemieux basically gets credited for 12, and Crosby gets 6, it's not close.

I'm not a trophy counter was arguing in that post about Crosby being able to dominate in a season which is easily projectable had those injuries not occured.

And yes I'm a bit what did happen guy just not focusing on counting stats and not taking context into account.

The best players of all time isn't a trophy counting exercise is it?

Having a ten point lead at the half over Stamkos is a next gear? I’ll take your word for it.

I also showed you the Penguins that year and we both know that Stamkos fed off MSL to some extent or do you disagree?

Also a 10 point lead in a half season is a big deal in the post lockout era it's not the 80s or early 90s here.

 

[Video Nasty]

I'm not a trophy counter was arguing in that post about Crosby being able to dominate in a season which is easily projectable had those injuries not occured.

And yes I'm a bit what did happen guy just not focusing on counting stats and not taking context into account.

The best players of all time isn't a trophy counting exercise is it?


I also showed you the Penguins that year and we both know that Stamkos fed off MSL to some extent or do you disagree?

Also a 10 point lead in a half season is a big deal in the post lockout era it's not the 80s or early 90s here.

That weak era just doesn’t wow me. In 2010-2011, Perry was the 3rd leading scorer. 35 old year old St. Louis was the runner up. 40 year old Selanne was 8th. Brad Richards was 10th. Ovechkin who was an absolute shell of himself compared to less than even 12 months prior and managed to still finish 7th. Stamkos was sub PPG the entire second half and still finish 5th. That is a sad and pathetic top 10.

So, no I’m not impressed that Crosby couldn’t absolutely mangle inferior competition.

 

[cupface52]

I'm not a trophy counter was arguing in that post about Crosby being able to dominate in a season which is easily projectable had those injuries not occured.

And yes I'm a bit what did happen guy just not focusing on counting stats and not taking context into account.

The best players of all time isn't a trophy counting exercise is it?

The 3 short years Crosby had his inflated ppg, his 5on5% was 13.3%. The highest he finished in a season was 11% over a full season. His career average is 9.4%.

So if you want context, normalize his 5on5 on ice sh%. Being generous, 10%, which is higher than his career average. Crosby's ppg goes from 1.61 averaged over the short seasons to 1.31 had he played full seasons. Stamkos has 1.16ppg in that same time.

 

[wetcoast]

That weak era just doesn’t wow me. In 2010-2011, Perry was the 3rd leading scorer. 35 old year old St. Louis was the runner up. 40 year old Selanne was 8th. Brad Richards was 10th. Ovechkin who was an absolute shell of himself compared to less than even 12 months prior and managed to still finish 7th. Stamkos was sub PPG the entire second half and still finish 5th. That is a sad and pathetic top 10.

So, no I’m not impressed that Crosby couldn’t absolutely mangle inferior competition.

Scoring went down to league dynamics and you just want to slag the players lack of talent?

Forgive me for I was wrong I thought you knew more about hockey than you are letting on here with this post.

 

[Regal]

Very few people did play it though. The entire league was Canadian, like literally 98+ %. Canada had a population of 17 million. How can that not be a niche sport? That's the definition of a niche sport, a sport played by literally only one country.

The modern equivalent is Aussie Rules Football. A sport played by only one country that has a pop of 20 million. Do you want to make the argument that Aussie Rules Football is not a niche sport because it's widely played and attended in Australia?

Perhaps it’s just semantics but a niche sport to me suggests something that is so small it’s still in its infancy and played in such small numbers in various pockets that what happens is largely meaningless to what it becomes once it becomes popular and people start developing the best ways to play and what to look for in player. Like if a sport was played in pockets throughout Canada by a couple thousand people, and there was no real sharing between leagues, some random dude dominating wouldn’t mean much if it blew up into a league played by millions. But by the time Howe came about the league was pretty well established and while lots of changes have happened since it was still similar enough to todays game that I think it’s easy to account for the differences, which might not be the case with early 1900s players. The league is still 40% Canadian, and the population pool is still much smaller relative to things like soccer. As I said, we should be able to account for that competition difference because, it’s still a niche sport by the same standards.

 

[Video Nasty]

Scoring went down to league dynamics and you just want to slag the players lack of talent?

Forgive me for I was wrong I thought you knew more about hockey than you are letting on here with this post.

Nowhere am I talking about the number of points scored. I did bring up Stamkos’ PPG because he fell off a cliff in the second half. I mentioned the players and where they placed. How can you look at that top 10 and be impressed by it?

 

[wetcoast]

The 3 short years Crosby had his inflated ppg, his 5on5% was 13.3%. The highest he finished in a season was 11% over a full season. His career average is 9.4%.

Sure he was in his peak aged 23-25 seasons and the year before had decided to get better at scoring goals and if one watched him play into start the 10-11 season they would have seen how he had hit that extra gear.

So if you want context, normalize his 5on5 on ice sh%. Being generous, 10%, which is higher than his career average. Crosby's ppg goes from 1.61 averaged over the short seasons to 1.31 had he played full seasons. Stamkos has 1.16ppg in that same time.

10% is being a bit conservative given his career average is 9.4% and this is his peak we are talking about here don't you think but that's okay let's take a 1.31 to 1.16 over 3 season is quite the gap for the post lockout era don't you think?

Especially over a 3 season stretch.

We also have the front end example of the 10-11 season and the 12-13 season where he is dominating the field it's not like it's a one off either.

i'm also not playing the "let's pretend full season game here" but pointing out that he was capable and showed us his dominance but then those injuries.

What's more impressive and important is the 19 year stretch of greatness IMO.