Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[jigglysquishy]

Him having 7 top 3s in 11 years then coming back and dismantling the NHL in 2001 shows that he would have dominated the NHL in the 3 years he missed (98-00) period bringing the award gap in his favour.

Look, I love the Lemieux return story, but saying he dismantled the NHL in 2000 isn't exactly accurate.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Starting from the day he returned.

He isn't first in PPG or GPG or APG or goals, points, or assists.

It was incredible to watch live, but on the whole, I think is less impressive than his first ~40 games in 2002-2003.

He was cleanly outpointed by Jagr in the games played together. That Sakic is close while playing Selke level defense is insane.

 

[wetcoast]

Post-expansion, ya, but pre-expansion was a minefield. Defensemen aged better pre-Orr than forwards did since speed wasn't as essential.

When he won his last Hart in 1963 he was already the 6th oldest player in the league. He was already the oldest forward. Except for Lindsay's brief comeback season, 1961-62 was the last season a forward born before Howe played in the NHL. He spent 11 seasons as the oldest forward in the NHL.

The age of the top 10 in his last Art Ross season (1962-63) at end of the regular season.

1. Howe - 35
2. Bathgate - 30
3. Mikita - 22
4. Mahovlich - 25
5. H. Richard - 27
6. Beliveau - 31
7. Bucyk - 27
8. Delvecchio - 31
9. Hull - 24
10. Oliver - 25

Or in 1968-69, when he finished 3rd in points

1. Esposito - 27
2. Hull - 30
3. Howe - 41
4. Mikita - 28
5. Hodge - 24
6. Cournoyer - 25
7. Delvecchio - 37
8. Beliveau - 37
9. Berenson - 29
10. Ratelle - 28

His age sticks out like crazy in both seasons, but the post-expansion trend for older players definitely existed more strongly than pre-expansion.


He was 39 when the league expanded.

Lemieux played 26 pro games after his 39th birthday. How is this a mark in Lemieux's favour?

Fair enough my argument and gut reaction was to this statement and I was thinking Dmen as well.

. In an era where guys struggled to be impact players past 30,

Both years you cited had a large amount of guys over the age of 30 as well.

In the current recent NHL this is much more rare for various reasons.

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby was driving playing in the 19 playoffs, was 3rd best on his team and the Pens had a 4.4 shooting % in that 4 game series.

He wasn't great but wasn't shit that year but counting stats I know.


20-21 same thing was driving play really well again at a 62.8% CF


I love datsyuk but go ahead and try to make that argument it's nonsensical.

His offense was still capable heck he won the richard in 17 and had top 10 finishes of 3,2,10 and 5th in scoring during that time period, you are simply out to lunch and he was also a decent 2 way player before that.


Sure but I don't just trophy count.

With everything we know so far I'm taking the career and timeline, injuries and all with Crosby over Mario as they translate better across all eras a and time.

McDavid might get there as well but I'd still have Wayne and Bobby (although he has limited games so that's iffy I guess) ahead.


You are only looking at video game numbers still Mario couldn't lift his team into the playoffs and won 2 SC's with a huge airlift of incoming talent and then never really came close again.

You dont produce that is choking....

Matthews/marner did this in 2020 and 2021 for the leafs

Crosby is supposed to be able to produce. CF% is not valuble when you put 3 pts in 10 games. That was atrocious production from Crosby

You have no way of confirming Crosby translates better in any era vs Lemieux

Crosby from 2016 onwards:

2016 --> 3rd to 5th best player in the league
2017 --> 2nd best player in the league
2018--> 10th to 15th best player in the reg season, a bad year
2019 --> 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

2020 onwards: Non factor for any awards really (2021 he got gifted some votes but there were several guys better than him that year who missed some games)

Trophy count shows the level of player you are league wide. Ross/hart/lindsay/smythe/Rocket in totatlity along with ALL NHL teams show your value as a player.

Lemieux having pretty much what was Crosbys possible absolute peak in 6 rosses in 11 years shows how far ahead he is as a player to Crosby who would need 20 years to get this.

Crosby has 3 cups to 2 cups for lemieux. Not a crazy advantage and Smythes are tied with Crosby having a weak smythe from 2016.

Lemieux being able to come back in 2001 and lead the league in ppg is kore impressive than anything Crosby has done in his career.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby lost trophies to guys like Jamie Benn and Henrik Sedin. Unless we count playoffs, he has no business being mentioned with McDavid, Lemieux, or Gretzky.

This is a real lazy argument on it's surface when one digs deeper it doesn't mean very much in an all time sense or ranking.

After all no one is arguing about the offensive stats and league dynamics of when Mario and Wayne played are they?

 

[hamzarocks]

Look, I love the Lemieux return story, but saying he dismantled the NHL in 2000 isn't exactly accurate.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Starting from the day he returned.

He isn't first in PPG or GPG or APG or goals, points, or assists.

It was incredible to watch live, but on the whole, I think is less impressive than his first ~40 games in 2002-2003.

He was cleanly outpointed by Jagr in the games played together. That Sakic is close while playing Selke level defense is insane.

Lemieux would have taken all the awards besides maybe rocket if he had played every game that year.

Jagr playing shit without Lemieux is on him. Same with Sakic.

Lemieux was once again hurt by health that year. Sucks he couldn't come back earlier and play ~65 games. Would have gotten hart+lindsay if he had played that many games and likely close for ross

lemieux led the league in ppg in 2001. He paced for 145 pts while Jagr finished with 121.

Jagr was not going to hit more than maybe 100 until Lemieux came back.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lemieux would have taken all the awards besides maybe rocket if he had played every game that year.Same with Sakic

What????

Jagr put up more points than Lemieux in the games they shared.

What evidence is there that Lemieux would outpoint Jagr?

Sakic played elite hockey too before Lemieux returned.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He was second in points the day Lemieux returned. He was second in points by end of season too. And finished second in Selke while Lemieux was a defensive zero.

 

[cupface52]

You dismissed Howe based on the fact that the talent pool he competed against was smaller and only consisted of Canadians. You can’t suddenly turn around and say people put Howe above Lemieux factoring that, because those who do argue that the talent Howe faced and how he dominated it still put him above Lemieux.

Your arguments are fallacious. Those who put Lemieux above Howe are just like you and dismiss his competition. You have this weird mix of people who put Howe above Lemieux while dismissing his competition. This group does not exist so your rebuttal is nonsensical.

I didn't dismiss Howe?

When comparing Howe and McDavid, you can't directly compare their dominance over competition without adding context. The best way to do that is compare McDavid to the best Canadian players, it doesn't take anything away from Howe. I never said Howe's top 5 finishes are worth less, nor did I say his Art Ross is worth less than McDavid's.

I'm quite certain the majority of people who put Howe over Lemieux acknowledge Howe did play against weaker competition. He was still a dominant player, and he was so for 20+ years. I don't believe 6 very dominant years from a player surpasses 6-8 years as #1 with another 15 years as top 5.

The way I look at, if I'm starting a franchise, and know how each players will turn out(both ability and health). I'll take Gretzky first, Howe second, Orr 3rd, Lemieux 4th.

Gretzky - No explanation needed
Howe - 6-8 top tier years, and another ~15 years I've got a top 5 player
Orr over Lemieux, personally, prefer 8 straight years over scattered years. Could flip a coin really.

 

[DeletedUser539]

You were saying?

22 points back of 1st place at the halfway point of the season. Since then, he has 106 points in 53 games (2.00 ppg) and 62 points in his last 28 games (2.21 ppg). (Credit to @Video Nasty I took these numbers from his post in another thread).

McDavid now leading the league in PPG and is two points back of the lead with 1 game in hand over Kucherov and 2 games in hand over Mack.

In the history of the NHL, only 99 & 66 can post these kind of numbers over sustained stretches of hockey.

Anyone still laughing at the notion that McDavid might retire #2?

He is looking like no.5-12 territory right now he needs a few cups and a a Smythe and have a productive back half of his career to be no.2. He has a shot to be no.2 but he needs at least a pair of cups and longevity. This is peak McDavid and if he continues this level of play for about let's say another 6 seasons he is comfortably no.3 all time I think he can do it and on an entertainment level he at least for me is as entertaining as the great 8 and showtime he is just amazing to watch no other player has the feet hands and mind all in sync while being able to separate his lower half from upper half. He is able to pat his head and rub his belly flawlessly to speak. He also added some nastiness overtime and us great along the boards now and seems he upped his cycle game I hope keeps evolving his game and giving us how the hell does he do that type of season. So yes I think he can be no.2 all time

 

[Montreal Shadow]

This is a real lazy argument on it's surface when one digs deeper it doesn't mean very much in an all time sense or ranking.

After all no one is arguing about the offensive stats and league dynamics of when Mario and Wayne played are they?

No, it isn't lazy. Fact is, Crosby never ever thoroughly dominated the competition like McDavid did. In his 120pts season, he had a paltry 6pts lead over Thornton. His absolute peak was when he had around 70pts in 40 games but went down.

A perfectly healthy McDavid wouldn't lose to the likes of Benn and Sedin, neither would Lemieux. Crosby has been consistent, but the heights of his play in the regular season never reached McDavid's level. Lemieux is a non-starter and forget about Gretzky.

 

[hamzarocks]

What????

Jagr put up more points than Lemieux in the games they shared.

What evidence is there that Lemieux would outpoint Jagr?

1) Lemieux was routinely dominating jagr from scoring perspective until 1997 when he had to retire.

2) Jagr over the three years when Lemieux left had 325 pts in 221 games or a ~121 pt per 82 pace. He finished with 121 pts again after Lemieux return

Jagr never showed he could put 140-150 when he had the chance to during 98-00 seasons

Lemieux comes back and he is right there ppg with Jagr, being about 4/5 pts back (79 pts in 45 games vs 84 in 45)

There is little reason to expect Jagr could put up 140/150 over a full year when he couldnt as the main guy. With Lemieux back he got the pts bump. Lemieux playing the whole year has the chance to jump off to lead league of the bat while Jagr took time to get to his dominant self

 

[Empoleon8771]

Crosby lost trophies to guys like Jamie Benn and Henrik Sedin. Unless we count playoffs, he has no business being mentioned with McDavid, Lemieux, or Gretzky.

Crosby has no business being included in the Lemieux and Gretzky tier because he's obviously not as good as them. Him losing an Art Ross to Jamie Benn in one random year a decade ago is meaningless with that.

If he doesn't win a cup, he firmly ends up the #5 player of all time but most don't think he breaks into the top-4. If he wins a cup, he immediately breaks into that top-4 group and can legitimately end up #2 overall.

 

[jigglysquishy]

1) Lemieux was routinely dominating jagr from scoring perspective until 1997 when he had to retire.

2) Jagr over the three years when Lemieux left had 325 pts in 221 games or a ~121 pt per 82 pace. He finished with 121 pts again after Lemieux return

Jagr never showed he could put 140-150 when he had the chance to during 98-00 seasons

Lemieux comes back and he is right there ppg with Jagr, being about 4/5 pts back (79 pts in 45 games vs 84 in 45)

There is little reason to expect Jagr could put up 140/150 over a full year when he couldnt as the main guy. With Lemieux back he got the pts bump. Lemieux playing the whole year has the chance to jump off to lead league of the bat while Jagr took time to get to his dominant self

What evidence is there that Lemieux could hit 140? His last healthy season, 1997, he hit 122. He was 4 years older. He wasn't going to beat that season.

Jagr hit 127 in 1999 with zero help. He paced for 125 in 2000.

Jagr simply outplayed Lemieux when they played together in 2000-2001.

 

[robertocarlos]

He's regressed. Top 5 right now, maybe.

 

[wetcoast]

You dont produce that is choking....

Matthews/marner did this in 2020 and 2021 for the leafs

Crosby is supposed to be able to produce. CF% is not valuble when you put 3 pts in 10 games. That was atrocious production from Crosby

I use the same argument when people tell me that McDavid was choking in the playoffs but you really don't understand context at all do you?

You have no way of confirming Crosby translates better in any era vs Lemieux

Sure you don't think that crosby could light up the league in the mid 80s onwards?

we have seen how well he has done since the lockout in a slary cap league right?

Crosby from 2016 onwards:

2016 --> 3rd to 5th best player in the league
2017 --> 2nd best player in the league
2018--> 10th to 15th best player in the reg season, a bad year
2019 --> 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

Sure now do a list for all of those seasons and Crosby becomes a top 3 guy over a 4 year period right?

i'd have him second behind an emerging McDavid at worst and really once again in terms of overall play a lot of people would have taken him ahead of McDiv over that time period.

I love how 18 is a bad year in your books and it's probably his "worst" year yet he is doing the heavy lifting in Pittsburg finishes 10th in league scoring and Malkin/Kessel are getting the easier offensive zone starts while teams are keying on Crosby.

Heck 99% of forwards never have a best season as good as his bad year.

2020 onwards: Non factor for any awards really (2021 he got gifted some votes but there were several guys better than him that year who missed some games)

Once again Crosby is 32-36 years old across this time frame, do you think Mario looks better at this age?

Trophy count shows the level of player you are league wide. Ross/hart/lindsay/smythe/Rocket in totatlity along with ALL NHL teams show your value as a player.

Sure it also favours the young and playing the entire season too right?

Strictly trophy counting doesn't help the case for Crosby but it also glosses over this elite consistency year in year out for 19 freaking consecutive years that's super elite territory there.

Lemieux having pretty much what was Crosbys possible absolute peak in 6 rosses in 11 years shows how far ahead he is as a player to Crosby who would need 20 years to get this.

no it shows that eh was better offensively and once again no one is arguing this anyways.

Crosby has 3 cups to 2 cups for lemieux. Not a crazy advantage and Smythes are tied with Crosby having a weak smythe from 2016.

Crosby has an elite playoff resume but I can see why some will view Mario with the better one but it's not a huge gap.

Lemieux being able to come back in 2001 and lead the league in ppg is kore impressive than anything Crosby has done in his career.

Sure to you but we are talking careers here and I saw that season Mario didn't play a 200 foot game then and was still a PP monster on a team with a some offensive monsters but I'd have to go back and look if he plays in b2b games ect before declaring it being better than Crosby in say 10-11 which IMO is quite a bit better.

 

[DeletedUser539]

No, it isn't lazy. Fact is, Crosby never ever thoroughly dominated the competition like McDavid did. In his 120pts season, he had a paltry 6pts lead over Thornton. His absolute peak was when he had around 70pts in 40 games but went down.

A perfectly health McDavid wouldn't lose to the likes of Benn and Sedin, neither would Lemieux. Crosby has been consistent, but the heights of his play reached in the regular season never reached McDavid's level. Lemieux is a non-starter and forget about Gretzky.

Crosby is this generations gordie howe had a great peak but got snuffed with injuries but has recovered and is looking like he is gonna keep putting up ppg seasons until he is 45 but McDavid is having one of the highest peaks just slightly below Mario and wayne

 

[Montreal Shadow]

I didn't dismiss Howe?

When comparing Howe and McDavid, you can't directly compare their dominance over competition without adding context. The best way to do that is compare McDavid to the best Canadian players, it doesn't take anything away from Howe. I never said Howe's top 5 finishes are worth less, nor did I say his Art Ross is worth less than McDavid's.

With context, Howe dominated Ted Lindsay and McDavid dominated Brad Marchand. Without looking, I can almost certainly say that Ted Lindsay is considered quite a bit better than Marchand.

I'm quite certain the majority of people who put Howe over Lemieux acknowledge Howe did play against weaker competition. He was still a dominant player, and he was so for 20+ years. I don't believe 6 very dominant years from a player surpasses 6-8 years as #1 with another 15 years as top 5.

And none of them would argue that beating Ted Lindsay by over 30% is the same as beating Brad Marchand by a similar amount. In 2023, it was against MacK who missed 11 games and would have likely finished second or third in the race. McDavid's margin of victory would have been around 15-25%.

Crosby has no business being included in the Lemieux and Gretzky tier because he's obviously not as good as them. Him losing an Art Ross to Jamie Benn in one random year a decade ago is meaningless with that.

If he doesn't win a cup, he firmly ends up the #5 player of all time but most don't think he breaks into the top-4. If he wins a cup, he immediately breaks into that top-4 group and can legitimately end up #2 overall.

But it isn't just Benn in a random year. Crosby has a paltry two Art Ross trophies to McDavid's five and McDavid has a shot at a 6th this year. Crosby also lost to Sedin and Patrick Kane. For the majority of Crosby's prime, besides that one season where he went down halfway through, he never completely separated himself from the pack of elite players. What he did was consistently rank in the top 3 which made him overall number 1 because he never had an awful year but he never had a spectacular one either outside of the playoffs.

 

[hamzarocks]

What evidence is there that Lemieux could hit 140? His last healthy season, 1997, he hit 122. He was 4 years older. He wasn't going to beat that season.

Jagr hit 127 in 1999 with zero help. He paced for 125 in 2000.

Jagr simply outplayed Lemieux when they played together in 2000-2001.

Lemieux was on pace for 132 pts the last time he played in 1997 before retiring.

Jagr barely outplayed Lemiuex in 2001 when he came back from his 3.5 year retirment

My original pt had Lemieux > Howe if healthy. Then it devolved to the 2001 season discussion between Lemieux and Jagr.

My pt is still, Lemieux is healtht 1998 to 2001 he is taking 4 rosses + 2-4 harts + 2-4 lindsays and ending any discussion with Howe.

Howe was fortunate not to have any major issues health wise which let him have a 20+ healthy career in a 6 team league era

Lemieux despite all his accomplishments and career ppg numbers is still a what-if today due to how odd his career was with injuries/bad health.

Lemieux talent + ability + per game/season dominance wise is the 2nd best player and 2nd most accomplished

In terms of career value and number of total top 5 prime years he is behind 99, 9 and maybe 4 (orr suffers from injuries as well tbh)

 

[hamzarocks]

I use the same argument when people tell me that McDavid was choking in the playoffs but you really don't understand context at all do you?


Sure you don't think that crosby could light up the league in the mid 80s onwards?

we have seen how well he has done since the lockout in a slary cap league right?

Sure now do a list for all of those seasons and Crosby becomes a top 3 guy over a 4 year period right?

i'd have him second behind an emerging McDavid at worst and really once again in terms of overall play a lot of people would have taken him ahead of McDiv over that time period.

I love how 18 is a bad year in your books and it's probably his "worst" year yet he is doing the heavy lifting in Pittsburg finishes 10th in league scoring and Malkin/Kessel are getting the easier offensive zone starts while teams are keying on Crosby.

Heck 99% of forwards never have a best season as good as his bad year.



Once again Crosby is 32-36 years old across this time frame, do you think Mario looks better at this age?



Sure it also favours the young and playing the entire season too right?

Strictly trophy counting doesn't help the case for Crosby but it also glosses over this elite consistency year in year out for 19 freaking consecutive years that's super elite territory there.



no it shows that eh was better offensively and once again no one is arguing this anyways.

Crosby has an elite playoff resume but I can see why some will view Mario with the better one but it's not a huge gap.


Sure to you but we are talking careers here and I saw that season Mario didn't play a 200 foot game then and was still a PP monster on a team with a some offensive monsters but I'd have to go back and look if he plays in b2b games ect before declaring it being better than Crosby in say 10-11 which IMO is quite a bit better.

1. No I dont think Crosby could achieve anything from awards perspective if he played in the 80s and 90s

He would have no ross+hart+lindsays as they would be going to 99 or 66 assuming both are healthy from 1980 to 2000 (20 likely split between the two)

He would be 3rd best player behind those two a bit ahead of Jagr, which is how he stacks right now any how (Crosby likely 7th or 8th all time and Jagr 10th or 11th)

2. Over 2016 to 2019 Crosby was imo at best 3rd best player. He was behind Mcdavid and Kucherov (Kucherov was 3rd best in 2017, 2018 --> top 5ish, 2019 best). But even if you have him 2nd, he was only 28-31. He should have won ross/hart/lindsay in 2 of these 4 years over Mcdavid if he was the level of player your pretending him to be.

3. Lemieux age 32 to 36 would have been competing higher for the ross/hart/lindsay. We saw 2001 how dominant he was. We saw 2003 again. He missed 3 years where he would run away with all the awards in 1998 to 2000. Jagr got to collect the awards as a result

4. Crosby is not a matchup defensive center. He is a primary offensive, possession based center. Your trying to paint him as an elite defensive shutdown guy. He isnt a guy you can go to shutdown another elite line and find he will be anle to do so unless he is outproducing them by winning his offensive matchups

5. Crosby elite consistency in 19 years is less valuable/dominant and impressive than lemieux 11 healthy season consistant dominance.

 

[hamzarocks]

With context, Howe dominated Ted Lindsay and McDavid dominated Brad Marchand. Without looking, I can almost certainly say that Ted Lindsay is considered quite a bit better than Marchand.

And none of them would argue that beating Ted Lindsay by over 30% is the same as beating Brad Marchand by a similar amount. In 2023, it was against MacK who missed 11 games and would have likely finished second or third in the race. McDavid's margin of victory would have been around 15-25%.


But it isn't just Benn in a random year. Crosby has a paltry two Art Ross trophies to McDavid's five and McDavid has a shot at a 6th this year. Crosby also lost to Sedin and Patrick Kane. For the majority of Crosby's prime, besides that one season where he went down halfway through, he never completely separated himself from the pack of elite players. What he did was consistently rank in the top 3 which made him overall number 1 because he never had an awful year but he never had a spectacular one either outside of the playoffs.

Crosby seperated himself in 2011 and 2013

2012 also likely could have been a year but to little games played

 

[jigglysquishy]

Howe was fortunate not to have any major issues health wise which let him have a 20+ healthy career in a 6 team league era

If you don't know anything about Howe's career you can just admit it. We're all here to learn.

Howe broke his skull and jaw in 1950. He ended up having a brain hemorage and was plagued by concussion symptoms for years. The brain damage was severe enough there was real risk of death. In his book he mentions frequent headaches and memory problems throughout the next season.

It was the 50s so you get back on the ice, but let's not pretend he didn't suffer health problems. It was a concussion comparable in scope to what Crosby had in 2011.

Howe broke his wrist in 1955, requiring surgery and permanently imparring his shot.

He was constantly hurt. He got over 300 stitches to his face throughout his career and broke his ribs at least three times.

Howe wasn't healthy. He just played through it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But it isn't just Benn in a random year. Crosby has a paltry two Art Ross trophies to McDavid's five and McDavid has a shot at a 6th this year. Crosby also lost to Sedin and Patrick Kane. For the majority of Crosby's prime, besides that one season where he went down halfway through, he never completely separated himself from the pack of elite players. What he did was consistently rank in the top 3 which made him overall number 1 because he never had an awful year but he never had a spectacular one either outside of the playoffs.

And McDavid lost to Draisaitl and Kucherov.

Bringing up "they lost to X for an award in a random year" argument is a silly argument. Just look at the overall resume rather than cherry-picking random years where oddities happen.

 

[hamzarocks]

If you don't know anything about Howe's career you can just admit it. We're all here to learn.

Howe broke his skull and jaw in 1950. He ended up having a brain hemorage and was plagued by concussion symptoms for years. The brain damage was severe enough there was real risk of death. In his book he mentions frequent headaches and memory problems throughout the next season.

It was the 50s so you get back on the ice, but let's not pretend he didn't suffer health problems. It was a concussion comparable in scope to what Crosby had in 2011.

Howe broke his wrist in 1955, requiring surgery and permanently imparring his shot.

He was constantly hurt. He got over 300 stitches to his face throughout his career and broke his ribs at least three times.

Howe wasn't healthy. He just played through it.

He didnt miss any games due to this injury

he didnt see himself unable to play and was able to continue playing and dominanting

Lemieux didnt have this type of chance.

Hockey in the 50s and 60s was also slower paced and less compettive. You could afford to play through these type of injuries because everyone was doing so in a 6 team league

The same cant be said when hockey sped up, systems became more complicated, more goons entered the NHL and phsyicality took off in late 70s to 90s

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Crosby seperated himself in 2011 and 2013

2012 also likely could have been a year but to little games played

Not with half-seasons, he didn't.

 

[cupface52]

With context, Howe dominated Ted Lindsay and McDavid dominated Brad Marchand. Without looking, I can almost certainly say that Ted Lindsay is considered quite a bit better than Marchand.

And none of them would argue that beating Ted Lindsay by over 30% is the same as beating Brad Marchand by a similar amount. In 2023, it was against MacK who missed 11 games and would have likely finished second or third in the race. McDavid's margin of victory would have been around 15-25%.

I didn't realize 30% and 50% is a similar amount. Maybe Mack goes cold and gets 5 points and McDavid still beats him by 30%. Maybe it's Macks playstyle that gets him injured, so in order to play a full season, he scores at a lower rate. Could be that this year Mack finally learned to play a high level for a full season without getting injured. All unkown.

 

[jigglysquishy]

He didnt miss any games due to this injury

he didnt see himself unable to play and was able to continue playing and dominanting

He did miss games though. He missed 12 playoff games.

He talks about the situation in his book. Competition was too fierce and contracts weren't guaranteed. He played through the pain because he didn't want to get cut for a healthy player.

That Howe was able to win an Art Ross with a concussion isn't a mark in Lemieux’s favour.