Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[wetcoast]

Howe should really be the de facto #2.

Except there is this guy bobby Orr.... but sure Howe has an argument.

To me it's Gretzky on top then either Howe or Orr and then Mario who is more vulnerable than the first 3 guys in being overtaken.

Crosby is getting closer to Mario but his teams misfortunes make it unlikey that he gets there.

McDavid is tracking really well right now but we won't know for another 5 years or so how high he actually lands.

 

[hamzarocks]

Except there is this guy bobby Orr.... but sure Howe has an argument.

To me it's Gretzky on top then either Howe or Orr and then Mario who is more vulnerable than the first 3 guys in being overtaken.

Crosby is getting closer to Mario but his teams misfortunes make it unlikey that he gets there.

McDavid is tracking really well right now but we won't know for another 5 years or so how high he actually lands.

Your the only guy who has crosby anywhere near Lemieux

Lemieux is only behind Gretzky talent wise with Mcdavid being the only other player to be that level

Crosby is a tier back of all three of those guys.

Lemieux has a better peak, prime and career than Crosby despite only 900 games played.

Crosby is 6th-10th all time and can only go down if another prodigy comes with 0 chance to move up

Mcdavid is 4th best all time aheas of Howe after this year. Greatest he is 5th

6th ross in 9 years likely

 

[Video Nasty]

The disrespect towards Howe in this thread is insane. Maybe people should go back and look at what he accomplished before putting him as the de facto #4 or even below Crosby? He had multiple seasons around 1.2 or even 1.3 PPG while no one else in the entire league was above a PPG, or just a PPG. He was above a PPG in 1700+ games while playing in a much lower scoring era, that's as "hard to wrap your head around" as most Gretzky's records are.

They think Lemieux was better than Gretzky. They can’t be expected to wrap their heads around Howe being better than Lemieux in any fashion.

 

[hamzarocks]

They think Lemieux was better than Gretzky. They can’t be expected to wrap their heads around Howe being better than Lemieux in any fashion.

Howe wasnt better than Lemieux in any way shape or form

That would be like saying Crosby is better than Mcdavid

Howe is greater than Lemieux due to his nearly whole career year run of being a top 7 player

Lemieux in 900 games still has a career almost/comparable to as great as Howe's was which speaks for itself.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Howe wasnt better than Lemieux in any way shape or form

I respect your dedication to absolutely astonishing levels of ignorance.

 

[wetcoast]

Your the only guy who has crosby anywhere near Lemieux

Lemieux is only behind Gretzky talent wise with Mcdavid being the only other player to be that level

Crosby is a tier back of all three of those guys.

Lemieux has a better peak, prime and career than Crosby despite only 900 games played.

Crosby is 6th-10th all time and can only go down if another prodigy comes with 0 chance to move up

Mcdavid is 4th best all time aheas of Howe after this year. Greatest he is 5th

6th ross in 9 years likely

Mario has the video game offensive numbers but like Outsider upthread pointed out Crosby has an incredible on ice impact on his team both ways, something Mario is lacking at times in his career.

Crosby despite his injuries has already played in 347 more games than Mario and is still going strong, at some point that counts for something in my books.

 

[hamzarocks]

I respect your dedication to absolutely astonishing levels of ignorance.

There is no ignorance its just people trying to protect 1) Gretzky legacy by downplaying how large a threat Lemieux was at the time to him 2) People wanting to not let Howes importance and greatness die out at the cost of the 2nd best player to ever play

6 rosses in 11 healthy years is more impressive than 6 rosses in 23 years.

Lemieux is only held back by health compared to Howe

Vs Gretzky there is still talent gap imo with Gretzky being more talented/Higher IQ player

People are doing the exact same thing now to Mcdavid.

Mcdavid is already the 3rd best NHL player ever if he wins the ross+hart+lindsay this year. People will bring in cups to try and hurt him but individually he os the 3rd best player if he takes those awards this year.

He is a major threat ti Gretzky. 3/4 ross + hart + lindsays + 2-3 cups/smythes and he is ending the greater player alltime

He has done the unthinkable to make this even a legit scenerio at only 27 years of age

 

[cupface52]

No, it isn’t. Otherwise people would argue the likes of Jagr or Messier are better than Lemieux.

He is not close at all though. He’s clearly a step below in terms of dominance and has yet to match Lemieux’s playoffs success. He’s in an odd spot where he’s clearly a step above Crosby and the rest of the league in the regular season but not on Lemieux or Gretzky’s level. He’s been great in the playoffs but never touched the finals yet.

Messier was never considered the best player, probably not even if you exclude Gretzky and Lemieux. Jagr has less elite seasons than Lemieux spent as #1. Lindros was a much more dominant player than Selanne, but no one is going to argue Lindros > Selanne.

Majority of people consider Howe > Lemieux, also, Howe > Orr. If Howe trailed off after 10 years, he'd be no where near the two. His health and longevity put him in that tier. McDavid is in that Howe tier as long as he doesn't slow down in the next ~7 years. IF McDavid is able to keep up his play, he has a very good chance of passing Howe, which by virtue means he passes Lemieux and Orr.

 

[hamzarocks]

Mario has the video game offensive numbers but like Outsider upthread pointed out Crosby has an incredible on ice impact on his team both ways, something Mario is lacking at times in his career.

Crosby despite his injuries has already played in 347 more games than Mario and is still going strong, at some point that counts for something in my books.

if your playing games but producing considerably worse than Lemieux was thats not a strong point its a negatvie

Otherwise can argue OV is better than crosby. More games played, more goals, more individual awards if you want to remove context

 

[Video Nasty]

Howe wasnt better than Lemieux in any way shape or form

That would be like saying Crosby is better than Mcdavid

Howe is greater than Lemieux due to his nearly whole career year run of being a top 7 player

Lemieux in 900 games still has a career almost/comparable to as great as Howe's was which speaks for itself.

My opinion is that Lemieux was more talented than Howe, but I’m commenting on how if some can convince themselves that Lemieux was better than Gretzky, what hope does Howe have?

But when factoring in the entire package, Lemieux does deserve to be ranked below Howe, particularly if one favors “what happened” over “what if Lemieux did what Gretzky did ten times?”

 

[wetcoast]

if your playing games but producing considerably worse than Lemieux was thats not a strong point its a negatvie

The argument is always about video games number for Mario and forget about context.

aside from scoring it's not even close who brought more between Mario and Sid.

Otherwise can argue OV is better than crosby. More games played, more goals, more individual awards if you want to remove context

Crosby is at 350 games more than Mario and will end up clsoe to Ovechkin in games and still be the better 2 way player than either Mario or Ovi.

I'm not even sure why you bring it up completely different comparisons.

 

[jigglysquishy]

6 rosses in 11 healthy years is more impressive than 6 rosses in 23 years.

You have to be more rigorous than just trophy counting. It's the most elementary lazy form of ranking players.

Howe was a premier defensive player. He spent 10 years as arguably the best defensive winger in the world and another 5 years elite defensively.

His offensive domination at peak isn't Lemieux 89 or Lemieux 93, but does keep up with Lemieux 96.

That Howe spent 15 years outside his peak as a top 5 player in the world is astounding. In an era where guys struggled to be impact players past 30, he was finishing top 5 in points while being a two way machine.

You can see evidence of it throughout the mid 60s. Howe was one of the oldest players in the league and still lead the playoffs in points and dragged a middling team far past their talent level.

It's not just his insane offensive peak. It's the single greatest longevity in the sports history. It's a top 3 at worst age 30-39. It's the strongest 40-49 in the sport's history. It's the rare ability to combine offense and defense. It's the physicality. It's the ability to dominate across a 20 year period.

Reducing Howe to 6 Art Rosses is missing why he is a consensus top 4 player ever.

 

[hamzarocks]

The argument is always about video games number for Mario and forget about context.

aside from scoring it's not even close who brought more between Mario and Sid.

Crosby is at 350 games more than Mario and will end up clsoe to Ovechkin in games and still be the better 2 way player than either Mario or Ovi.

I'm not even sure why you bring it up completely different comparisons.

Two way game means little when your a non selke caliber centre like Crosby

Lemieux offensive is 20-25% better than Crosby.

Defensive gap does not come close to covering that.

Crosby had he been healthy would have accomplished in 20 years what Lemieux did in 11 healthy years (6 rosses for Crosby if he was fully healthy in 11, 12, 13, and 15)

Lemieux was routinely either the 2nd best or best player when he played. He was closest to Gretzky while every9ne else was several tiers below

Crosby never was able to dominate in that manner. He also fell off after 27/28 (clear cut best player to top 5ish player over next 5 years) which hurt him all-time.

I can't see any pens fans rank Crosby better or greater to Lemieux all time. Your post was the first time I have ever seen someone suggest Crosby is close to overtaking Lemieux which had me confused

You have to be more rigorous than just trophy counting. It's the most elementary lazy form of ranking players.

Howe was a premier defensive player. He spent 10 years as arguably the best defensive winger in the world and another 5 years elite defensively.

His offensive domination at peak isn't Lemieux 89 or Lemieux 93, but does keep up with Lemieux 96.

That Howe spent 15 years outside his peak as a top 5 player in the world is astounding. In an era where guys struggled to be impact players past 30, he was finishing top 5 in points while being a two way machine.

You can see evidence of it throughout the mid 60s. Howe was one of the oldest players in the league and still lead the playoffs in points and dragged a middling team far past their talent level.

It's not just his insane offensive peak. It's the single greatest longevity in the sports history. It's a top 3 at worst age 30-39. It's the strongest 40-49 in the sport's history. It's the rare ability to combine offense and defense. It's the physicality. It's the ability to dominate across a 20 year period.

Reducing Howe to 6 Art Rosses is missing why he is a consensus top 4 player ever.

Top awards matters the most when comparing top 5 players all time

Being the 4th or 5th best player in a seaso is great but its not enough when stacking against a Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and now Mcdavid.

Howe had longevity and health over Lemieux.

For Lemieux to be able to win 6 rosses depsite only 11 healthy seasons in his career (85-90, 92 to 93, 96 to 97, and 03) shows the caliber of player he was.

We have seen in the NBA lebron due similar to Howe being a top end player (top 5 overall in that period) in his 30s-39 age seasons.

Howes 40-49 mean little as he left the NHL and played in a 2nd rate WHA league for most of that period.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Howes 40-49 mean little as he left the NHL and played in a 2nd rate WHA league for most of that period.

If you want to just award count, you can point to Howe's 6 Harts to McDavid's 3 or Lemieux’s 3.

Or you can point to his 12x top 3 in Hart. Compared to 7 for Lemieux or 5 for McDavid.

When Howe was 41 years old he finished third in points and fifth in Hart.

That Howe played on a weak team in his mid 30s and still kept up his offense is astonishing.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Messier was never considered the best player, probably not even if you exclude Gretzky and Lemieux. Jagr has less elite seasons than Lemieux spent as #1. Lindros was a much more dominant player than Selanne, but no one is going to argue Lindros > Selanne.

Majority of people consider Howe > Lemieux, also, Howe > Orr. If Howe trailed off after 10 years, he'd be no where near the two. His health and longevity put him in that tier. McDavid is in that Howe tier as long as he doesn't slow down in the next ~7 years. IF McDavid is able to keep up his play, he has a very good chance of passing Howe, which by virtue means he passes Lemieux and Orr.

You dismissed Howe based on the fact that the talent pool he competed against was smaller and only consisted of Canadians. You can’t suddenly turn around and say people put Howe above Lemieux factoring that, because those who do argue that the talent Howe faced and how he dominated it still put him above Lemieux.

Your arguments are fallacious. Those who put Lemieux above Howe are just like you and dismiss his competition. You have this weird mix of people who put Howe above Lemieux while dismissing his competition. This group does not exist so your rebuttal is nonsensical.

 

[wetcoast]

Two way game means little when your a non selke caliber centre like Crosby

Don't give me this all or nothing argument it really hurts your case here.

Crosby has a huge advantage in the 200 foot game over Mario.

Lemieux offensive is 20-25% better than Crosby.

Sure video game stats, league dynamics and usage, how many more points would Crosby have if his coach had said just go out and score and don't even bother trying to play defense?

Mario is still ahead but there is more to hockey than just scoring points.

Defensive gap does not come close to covering that.

Overall play does make it rather closer IMO.

Crosby had he been healthy would have accomplished in 20 years what Lemieux did in 11 healthy years (6 rosses for Crosby if he was fully healthy in 11, 12, 13, and 15)

Once again I don't trophy count when looking at players careers I look at everything and crosby is among a handfull of players when one looks at the all time ranking right now and has been for a while now.

Lemieux was routinely either the 2nd best or best player when he played. He was closest to Gretzky while every9ne else was several tiers below

Crosby never was able to dominate in that manner. He also fell off after 27/28 (clear cut best player to top 5ish player over next 5 years) which hurt him all-time.

You are once again going to video game stats and ignoring context league dynamics ect....but sure advantage Mario but to counterpoint Crosby holds the record for most consecutive seasons (it will be 19 including this season) at a PPG or higher even with some low scoring years there and paying attention to a 200 foot game.

I can't see any pens fans rank Crosby better or greater to Lemieux all time. Your post was the first time I have ever seen someone suggest Crosby is close to overtaking Lemieux which had me confused

Most people won't because of the Big 4 and video game numbers thing but if one looks at it closely there is an argument and like I said in my original post his team has kind of let him down, especially playoff wise the last couple of years and this year which affects legacy.

 

[hamzarocks]

If you want to just award count, you can point to Howe's 6 Harts to McDavid's 3 or Lemieux’s 3.

Or you can point to his 12x top 3 in Hart. Compared to 7 for Lemieux or 5 for McDavid.

When Howe was 41 years old he finished third in points and fifth in Hart.

That Howe played on a weak team in his mid 30s and still kept up his offense is astonishing.

He has 6 harts in 23 healthy years = 26% and 12 finalists in 23 years or 52%

Vs 3 harts in 11 years for Lemieux (he should have had more but got robbed a year to gretzky - he did steal a pearson from gretzky tho) = 27% and 7 finalists in 11 years or 64%

Mcdavid likely has 4 in 9 years = 44% and likely 6 finalists in 9 years or 67%

Howe and Mcdavid though benefit from not playing in same era as the ubdisputed best player and havinf to share awards

 

[jigglysquishy]

He has 6 harts in 23 healthy years = 26%

Vs 3 harts in 11 years for Lemieux (he should have had more but got robbed a year to gretzky - he did steal a pearson from gretzky tho) = 27%

Mcdavid likely has 4 in 9 years = 44%

Howe and Mcdavis though benefit from not playing in same era as the ubdisputed best player and havinf to share awards

What kind of childish logic is this?

If Howe retires in 1963 he puts up 6 Harts in 15 healthy seasons (40%)? Does that somehow make him better?

Howe's ability to play outside his peak is a mark in his favour.

That Lemieux couldn't and Howe could isn't a mark towards Lemieux.

 

[wetcoast]

You have to be more rigorous than just trophy counting. It's the most elementary lazy form of ranking players.

Howe was a premier defensive player. He spent 10 years as arguably the best defensive winger in the world and another 5 years elite defensively.

His offensive domination at peak isn't Lemieux 89 or Lemieux 93, but does keep up with Lemieux 96.

That Howe spent 15 years outside his peak as a top 5 player in the world is astounding. In an era where guys struggled to be impact players past 30, he was finishing top 5 in points while being a two way machine.

You can see evidence of it throughout the mid 60s. Howe was one of the oldest players in the league and still lead the playoffs in points and dragged a middling team far past their talent level.

It's not just his insane offensive peak. It's the single greatest longevity in the sports history. It's a top 3 at worst age 30-39. It's the strongest 40-49 in the sport's history. It's the rare ability to combine offense and defense. It's the physicality. It's the ability to dominate across a 20 year period.

Reducing Howe to 6 Art Rosses is missing why he is a consensus top 4 player ever.

Agree with almost all of this but at first glance I think older guys did quite well outside of Howe's peak years as the 06 era was very kind to older players and also post expansion.

 

[hamzarocks]

Don't give me this all or nothing argument it really hurts your case here.

Crosby has a huge advantage in the 200 foot game over Mario.



Sure video game stats, league dynamics and usage, how many more points would Crosby have if his coach had said just go out and score and don't even bother trying to play defense?

Mario is still ahead but there is more to hockey than just scoring points.

Overall play does make it rather closer IMO.


Once again I don't trophy count when looking at players careers I look at everything and crosby is among a handfull of players when one looks at the all time ranking right now and has been for a while now.


You are once again going to video game stats and ignoring context league dynamics ect....but sure advantage Mario but to counterpoint Crosby holds the record for most consecutive seasons (it will be 19 including this season) at a PPG or higher even with some low scoring years there and paying attention to a 200 foot game.


Most people won't because of the Big 4 and video game numbers thing but if one looks at it closely there is an argument and like I said in my original post his team has kind of let him down, especially playoff wise the last couple of years and this year which affects legacy.

Crosby had played poorly in the playoffs in 2019 and 2021, that was him playing shit and not just the Pens.

Your argument just comes across as people arguing Datsyuk is a better player all time than Crosby

The gap might be a bit smaller for 87 vs 66 but not by much.

Crosby coach never told him ti play a two-way game. He adapthed once his offense wasnt capable anymore from 2016 to 2020 period.

Crosby has less accomplishments in more time than Lemeiux. That alone makes them not possible to compare.

Your comparing a 70% healthy Crosby to a 50% healthy Lemieux and he still comes behind which makes this comparison absurd imo

If I want a perfect NHL player I am taking Gretzky, Mario Lemieux or Mcdavid.

They will dominate the NHL During their primes like little else. Than healthy into their 30s when they taper off you can have them focus on 2-way play more like crosby has done

 

[StumpyTown]

He’s honestly the most gifted player to ever play.

He’ll never touch Gretzky’s records but in terms of just pure hockey ability he has a very good case as being the most talented player ever.

It’ll be a “Big 5“ by the time his career is done.

I'm guessing you didn't get to see Super Mario play in his prime. Mario was by far the hockey player with the best complete package to ever play. The guy had vision right on par with Gretzky, he could skate a lot quicker than people remember, he was just as big and strong as Lindros (but chose the not play the same style), and he had as soft hands as anyone who has ever played the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging McDavid, but while being the best player today, McDavid still doesn't have the complete toolbox that Mario had when healthy. If McDavid stays healthy I do think he'll be able to have a greater legacy than Mario, and that speaks for itself.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Crosby lost trophies to guys like Jamie Benn and Henrik Sedin. Unless we count playoffs, he has no business being mentioned with McDavid, Lemieux, or Gretzky.

 

[hamzarocks]

What kind of childish logic is this?

If Howe retires in 1963 he puts up 6 Harts in 15 healthy seasons (40%)? Does that somehow make him better?

Howe's ability to play outside his peak is a mark in his favour.

That Lemieux couldn't and Howe could isn't a mark towards Lemieux.

Playing but not being able to either win the top awards or be a finalist is compiling. It is compiling at the highest level as this is Gordie Howe a top 4 player ever but it hurts his case when compared to Mario Lemieux or Bobby Orr

Lemieux could not achieve that based on his body breaking down/cancer.

Him having 7 top 3s in 11 years then coming back and dismantling the NHL in 2001 shows that he would have dominated the NHL in the 3 years he missed (98-00) period bringing the award gap in his favour.

Howe's whole argument to being better than Lemieux is being healthy and playing in a 6 team league for majority of his career. He only played a few years when the league expanded and then left for the WHA.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Agree with almost all of this but at first glance I think older guys did quite well outside of Howe's peak years as the 06 era was very kind to older players and also post expansion.

Post-expansion, ya, but pre-expansion was a minefield. Defensemen aged better pre-Orr than forwards did since speed wasn't as essential.

When he won his last Hart in 1963 he was already the 6th oldest player in the league. He was already the oldest forward. Except for Lindsay's brief comeback season, 1961-62 was the last season a forward born before Howe played in the NHL. He spent 11 seasons as the oldest forward in the NHL.

The age of the top 10 in his last Art Ross season (1962-63) at end of the regular season.

1. Howe - 35
2. Bathgate - 30
3. Mikita - 22
4. Mahovlich - 25
5. H. Richard - 27
6. Beliveau - 31
7. Bucyk - 27
8. Delvecchio - 31
9. Hull - 24
10. Oliver - 25

Or in 1968-69, when he finished 3rd in points

1. Esposito - 27
2. Hull - 30
3. Howe - 41
4. Mikita - 28
5. Hodge - 24
6. Cournoyer - 25
7. Delvecchio - 37
8. Beliveau - 37
9. Berenson - 29
10. Ratelle - 28

His age sticks out like crazy in both seasons, but the post-expansion trend for older players definitely existed more strongly than pre-expansion.

Howe's whole argument to being better than Lemieux is being healthy and playing in a 6 team league for majority of his career. He only played a few years when the league expanded and then left for the WHA.

He was 39 when the league expanded.

Lemieux played 26 pro games after his 39th birthday. How is this a mark in Lemieux's favour?

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby had played poorly in the playoffs in 2019 and 2021, that was him playing shit and not just the Pens.

Crosby was driving play in the 19 playoffs, was 3rd best on his team and the Pens had a 4.4 shooting % in that 4 game series.

He wasn't great but wasn't shit that year but counting stats I know.


20-21 same thing was driving play really well again at a 62.8% CF

Your argument just comes across as people arguing Datsyuk is a better player all time than Crosby

I love datsyuk but go ahead and try to make that argument it's nonsensical.

The gap might be a bit smaller for 87 vs 66 but not by much.

Crosby coach never told him ti play a two-way game. He adapthed once his offense wasnt capable anymore from 2016 to 2020 period.

His offense was still capable heck he won the richard in 17 and had top 10 finishes of 3,2,10 and 5th in scoring during that time period, you are simply out to lunch and he was also a decent 2 way player before that.

Crosby has less accomplishments in more time than Lemeiux. That alone makes them not possible to compare.

Sure but I don't just trophy count.

Your comparing a 70% healthy Crosby to a 50% healthy Lemieux and he still comes behind which makes this comparison absurd imo

If I want a perfect NHL player I am taking Gretzky, Mario Lemieux or Mcdavid.

With everything we know so far I'm taking the career and timeline, injuries and all with Crosby over Mario as they translate better across all eras a and time.

McDavid might get there as well but I'd still have Wayne and Bobby (although he has limited games so that's iffy I guess) ahead.

They will dominate the NHL During their primes like little else. Than healthy into their 30s when they taper off you can have them focus on 2-way play more like crosby has done

You are only looking at video game numbers still Mario couldn't lift his team into the playoffs and won 2 SC's with a huge airlift of incoming talent and then never really came close again.