Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[geebster]

Comparing eras is always messy because you have to carry the context as well. McDavid is, in my mind, the greatest player ever in the sense that if you dropped him as he is into the 80s he would outscore Gretzky. No one was that fast or had hands at that speed.

That's not fair though because modern training, equipment, competition etc. So you have to ask is McDavid more better than his contemporaries than the others were in their eras. It's hard to argue that when Lemieux was so far ahead of everyone in an era that wasn't massively higher scoring than today or how absurd Orr was compared to everyone else playing his position. Gretzky goes without saying.

I'd say he's the best player of this era and it isn't even close and we should just enjoy watching him while he's around.

(I'm nowhere near being an Oilers fan and I wish them all the failure in the world, doesn't mean I don't recognize greatness though).

 

[pi314]

The "Pittsburgh does better when Crosby is out of the lineup" argument has been debunked a number of times. See this post for a more detailed response.

At a high level, the reason it (appears) to show that the Pens do worse when Crosby is because Crosby's win percentage is dragged down by the horrendous 2006 team (Crosby only missed a single game, and Pittsburgh only won 22 games that year). Essentially, Crosby is getting penalized for playing on a really bad team at the start of his career. We see the same thing happen with players in similar circumstances. Over the course of Steve Yzerman's career, the Red Wings had a better win percentage in the games he missed (because he was very healthy when Detroit had a terrible team, and he missed most of his games when the team was good. The same thing happens with Denis Potvin.

What you need to do is either look at a player's on-ice impact (ie what is the team's goal differential when they're on the ice vs off the ice). And, as I already showed, by this metric, Crosby has among the best results in NHL history (top 1-2%).

The other way to look at it is to examine the data on a season by season basis. That way, we're isolating the impact of the player. Combining 19 seasons worth of data is meaningless. Using that approach - there were seven seasons where Crosby missed 7+ games (granted, not a huge sample size, but we'll work with what we have). Pittsburgh did worse in the games that Crosby missed six of those seven seasons (and in three of those seasons, the Pens were significantly worse in the games that he missed). That's pretty clear evidence that Crosby helped his team.

I've probably devoted 300 words to a shockingly obvious conclusion (Pittsburgh does better when Crosby plays!). I have no problem if people argue that Ovechkin or McDavid are better than Crosby. But I can't accept plainly misleading arguments. The suggestion that a consensus top ten player all-time somehow made his team worse is so obviously wrong, it deserves a response.

That and the Penguins led the league in man games lost to injuries several years.

It’s not like it was healthy team with Sid vs healthy team without.

There was a revolving door of guys going in and out of the lineup.

It’s pretty obvious that wherever Sid goes a trail of winning follows.

 

[authentic]

Comparing eras is always messy because you have to carry the context as well. McDavid is, in my mind, the greatest player ever in the sense that if you dropped him as he is into the 80s he would outscore Gretzky. No one was that fast or had hands at that speed.

That's not fair though because modern training, equipment, competition etc. So you have to ask is McDavid more better than his contemporaries than the others were in their eras. It's hard to argue that when Lemieux was so far ahead of everyone in an era that wasn't massively higher scoring than today or how absurd Orr was compared to everyone else playing his position. Gretzky goes without saying.

I'd say he's the best player of this era and it isn't even close and we should just enjoy watching him while he's around.

(I'm nowhere near being an Oilers fan and I wish them all the failure in the world, doesn't mean I don't recognize greatness though).

There are hundreds of players at this point who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time, McDavid going back would triple his point total at the very least, probably even with the old equipment. That’s just how much the game has changed. No one in the 80s would be able to compete with the skills Crosby or Ovechkin had in their prime either. Even before the new millennium it wasn’t hard to tell that the skill in the NHL had reached another level, so this is nothing new with McDavid, the modern player will likely always be the best in the absolute sense. However at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the next best player like Bedard or whoever else isn’t as good as McDavid considering that his speed and skill will be tough to replicate, especially considering the biggest gaps in the evolution of equipment and nutrition/training have already taken place in hockey.

 

[geebster]

There are hundreds of players at this point who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time, McDavid going back would triple his point total at the very least, probably even with the old equipment. That’s just how much the game has changed. No one in the 80s would be able to compete with the skills Crosby or Ovechkin had in their prime either. Even before the new millennium it wasn’t hard to tell that the skill in the NHL had reached another level, so this is nothing new with McDavid, the modern player will likely always be the best in the absolute sense. However at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the next best player like Bedard or whoever else isn’t as good as McDavid considering that his speed and skill will be tough to replicate, especially considering the biggest gaps in the evolution of equipment and nutrition/training have already taken place in hockey.

Fully agree.

I dont think comparing across eras makes any sense, its a fun subjective conversation but theres nowhere to ground it unless you go strictly player vs their peers I suppose. Crosby in the 80s would be the greatest player of all time too as you said. McDavid is truly special though in terms of talent. Crosby has a career thats really tough for McDavid to match in terms of team success etc, but as an individual talent McDavid is otherworldly offensively.

 

[authentic]

Fully agree.

I dont think comparing across eras makes any sense, its a fun subjective conversation but theres nowhere to ground it unless you go strictly player vs their peers I suppose. Crosby in the 80s would be the greatest player of all time too as you said. McDavid is truly special though in terms of talent. Crosby has a career thats really tough for McDavid to match in terms of team success etc, but as an individual talent McDavid is otherworldly offensively.

It is tough because you can never know for sure, like we know Gretzky would be great in any era. He played and dominated to an insane degree for a long enough period that you could argue he deserves the benefit of the doubt as the absolute best of all-time. Hockey sense like he had with all his other skills combined definitely translate and might even be a great fit for the modern game. However with the skill and the fast paced play and nearly everyone in the league being able to skate now it’s no coincidence that the best player is someone who is visibly a step ahead in those categories and has the IQ to back it up. I personally find it hard to see him dominating a player like McDavid if he grew up in this era given how he wasn’t even overly fast or physically skilled compared to the best players 50-60 years ago such as Bobby Orr and Guy Lafleur. Doesn’t mean it’s not possible either but if he did he wouldn’t resemble the Gretzky that actually existed a whole lot. Kucherov today would probably be the closest in terms of how his skill set would look, but likely even smarter. On the other hand I think Lemieux actually would have a good chance of being a better player than McDavid today without looking too drastically different than he looked at his best. He had the size, strength, skating and skill that would be unstoppable in any era with a brain that approached Gretzky. I think Lemieux and McDavid are probably the two “best” offensive players in terms of talent, but once again maybe it really is Gretzky… I just don’t know for sure.

 

[TopG]

Crosby better

 

[oilexport]

ORR, WAYNE, MARIO, MCDAVID.

 

[JJ68]

Nah...he's not better than Mario. And as a pure offensive force he aint better than Jagr. Sorry but Jags put up those points plahying with 3 guys on his back hooking and holding. The physicality was insane. Nowadays with no red line it caters to McDavid's skillset. Plus there isnt any physicality.

 

[Calderon]

Meh, fourth consecutive one point game (and 7th in last 9) and only one SOG despite being over 26 minutes on ice. He's not even creating his luck. Very pedestrian.

 

[VanCity88]

2nd? Really? Better than Lemieux? Better than Orr? Idk man. He needs to start winning some Cups to be in that kind of company. Even getting to a Cup Final and losing, or actually putting up a fight in a Conference Final would be something. Top 3 all time for 97 just seems crazy to me. TBH the more that I think of it I would even put Crosby and Ovi ahead of him in an all-time ranking.

Nah...he's not better than Mario. And as a pure offensive force he aint better than Jagr. Sorry but Jags put up those points plahying with 3 guys on his back hooking and holding. The physicality was insane. Nowadays with no red line it caters to McDavid's skillset. Plus there isnt any physicality.

This is a good point. In the DPE McDavid would be bogged down for sure. There would no "incidental contact in the neutral zone, throw your hands up and glare at the ref, go to the PP" type stuff going on like there is today.

 

[daver]

Might not go down as the 2nd best player this season let alone all time.

 

[HFpapi]

Might not go down as the 2nd best player this season let alone all time.

You were saying?

22 points back of 1st place at the halfway point of the season. Since then, he has 106 points in 53 games (2.00 ppg) and 62 points in his last 28 games (2.21 ppg). (Credit to @Video Nasty I took these numbers from his post in another thread).

McDavid now leading the league in PPG and is two points back of the lead with 1 game in hand over Kucherov and 2 games in hand over Mack.

In the history of the NHL, only 99 & 66 can post these kind of numbers over sustained stretches of hockey.

Anyone still laughing at the notion that McDavid might retire #2?

 

[Fourier]

really
There are hundreds of players at this point who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time, McDavid going back would triple his point total at the very least, probably even with the old equipment. That’s just how much the game has changed. No one in the 80s would be able to compete with the skills Crosby or Ovechkin had in their prime either. Even before the new millennium it wasn’t hard to tell that the skill in the NHL had reached another level, so this is nothing new with McDavid, the modern player will likely always be the best in the absolute sense. However at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the next best player like Bedard or whoever else isn’t as good as McDavid considering that his speed and skill will be tough to replicate, especially considering the biggest gaps in the evolution of equipment and nutrition/training have already taken place in hockey.

There is no doubt that there have been many advances in terms of equipment, training , nutrition etc but there is at least evidence that players today would not be nearly as different as you suggest. Look at a guy like Selanne and what he did at age 40 in 2010. Sakic had 100 points at age 37 in 2006-2007.

The 80's was actually a time when skill took a big step forward. The influence of Russian and other European approaches was significant. In fact, the Oilers dynasty team borrowed a lot from the Jets of the WHA to really emphasize skill.

McDavid's speed is incredible, and combined with all of his other skills and advantages it is not hard to believe that he would have been a dominate force in the 80's. But there are definitely not hundreds of players who would outscore Gretzky even with todays advantages.

 

[authentic]

There is no doubt that there have been many advances in terms of equipment, training , nutrition etc but there is at least evidence that players today would not be nearly as different as you suggest. Look at a guy like Selanne and what he did at age 40 in 2010. Sakic had 100 points at age 37 in 2006-2007.

The 80's was actually a time when skill took a big step forward. The influence of Russian and other European approaches was significant. In fact, the Oilers dynasty team borrowed a lot from the Jets of the WHA to really emphasize skill.

McDavid's speed is incredible, and combined with all of his other skills and advantages it is not hard to believe that he would have been a dominate force in the 80's. But there are definitely not hundreds of players who would outscore Gretzky even with todays advantages.

There definitely are, at this point in time there are A LOT more than 100. Examples of players who age well in real time do not disprove this whatsoever… Not sure what would make you think that. Every single decade in hockey there is a noticeable increase in skill level, I mean any elite player from the past 20 years is better than Gretzky was in the absolute sense. I honestly think it’s crazy that you believe this is not the case when there have been 40 years of evolution in hockey since Gretzky’s prime and hockey has improved more than any other sport, and all the footage available which easily shows the skill level of 80s players is nowhere close to today.

 

[Nyr88nyg]

Lol at sid

 

[Essenege]

He’s not better then Mario. The dude came back after 3 years off, at 35, in the heart of the DPE, and scored at a 1.77 p/gp.

Maybe if he wins 3-4 cups and get 2000 points, but even then peak Lemieux > peak McD, no doubt in my mind, unless he touches another level.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

You were saying?

22 points back of 1st place at the halfway point of the season. Since then, he has 106 points in 53 games (2.00 ppg) and 62 points in his last 28 games (2.21 ppg). (Credit to @Video Nasty I took these numbers from his post in another thread).

McDavid now leading the league in PPG and is two points back of the lead with 1 game in hand over Kucherov and 2 games in hand over Mack.

In the history of the NHL, only 99 & 66 can post these kind of numbers over sustained stretches of hockey.

Anyone still laughing at the notion that McDavid might retire #2?

He’s not passing Lemieux, so yes.

 

[Essenege]

The title says 2nd best player, not 2nd best carreer. Number of game played or career points is just meaningless . Mario was better then McD at every age including prime and peak.

 

[LivingRentFree]

He won’t pass Gretz
He won’t pass Lemieux
He won’t pass Orr
He won’t pass Crosby

He will be in the conversation with guys like Howe, Jagr, etc once he leads his team to multiple cups. Which he won’t.

The title says 2nd best player, not 2nd best carreer. Number of game played or career points is just meaningless . Mario was better then McD at every age including prime and peak.

And honestly it’s not even close lol. Lemieux >>>>>>>>>>>> McDavid

 

[Montreal Shadow]

He won’t pass Gretz
He won’t pass Lemieux
He won’t pass Orr
He won’t pass Crosby

He will be in the conversation with guys like Howe, Jagr, etc once he leads his team to multiple cups. Which he won’t.


And honestly it’s not even close lol. Lemieux >>>>>>>>>>>> McDavid

Crosby does not belong in this first group. McDavid has already surpassed him in the regular season. All he needs now are a few great playoff runs and it’s not like he’s a slouch there either.

 

[Crosby2010]

I can remember Crosby coming into the NHL and you could say his first 2-3 seasons he is on par with Mario. And it was true. However, season 4 for Mario he takes off, this is after the 1987 Canada Cup and he hit the superstardom level we haven't seen since. Crosby's 4th and 5th seasons were good, but Mario in 1988 and 1989 was just otherworldly. Crosby lost pace with Mario and that was that. McDavid as well has never quite hit the level of a 1988 Mario let alone a 1989 one. Ditto for Mario in 1990, 1993 or even 1996. Last year Connor had 153 points but it still wasn't Mario's 1996 season, and that's maybe his 3rd or 4th best year. At the end of the day I can't see him ever being the player Mario was, because we haven't quite seen that dominance from him yet. And that isn't a knock on Connor, it just tells you who Mario was.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

He’s the best to ever do it, but the much worse player pool of past times makes him less dominant than Gretz, Orr, or Lemieux.

 

[sdf]

The team of datsyuk clones will always beat his clones team

 

[HFpapi]

He’s not passing Lemieux, so yes.

McDavid is proving that his offensive peak is very. very close to Mario's. If you adjust for era McDavid is not far off at all. When you consider that Mario played less than 1000 games, I don't think it's at all crazy to say the door is open for McDavid to surpass him from an all-time stand point.

McDavid has already matched Lemieux in Hart trophies and has a great chance to tie him in Art Ross this season too despite being just 27 years old.

The marginal advantage Mario has in terms of peak and ability I don't think overcomes McDavid possibly winning 1-2 more MVP's and/or 2-3 more Art Ross trophies. This is speculative of course but if McDavid gets 2000+ points, 5+ Hart's and 8+ Art Ross (none of which is a given but none of which is outlandish either) idk how you say he can't pass Lemieux.

 

[Skolman]

He won’t pass Gretz
He won’t pass Lemieux
He won’t pass Orr
He won’t pass Crosby

He will be in the conversation with guys like Howe, Jagr, etc once he leads his team to multiple cups. Which he won’t.


And honestly it’s not even close lol. Lemieux >>>>>>>>>>>> McDavid

What a foolish post

Leafs fan of course, checks out.