Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Randyne]

lmao so break it down season by season, show your work or am I suppose to just take your word for it?

Here their career impact on their team with and without:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]team P% with[/TD]
[TD]team P% w/o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Connor McDavid[/TD]

[TD]

.574​

[/TD]

[TD]

.452​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]

[TD]

.612​

[/TD]

[TD]

.634​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This is simply false.

I don't want to turn this into (yet another) Crosby vs Ovechkin debate

Ovi influence is even bigger than McDavid's (the post I'm quoting was about leadership)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]team P% with[/TD]
[TD]team P% w/o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]

[TD]

.612​

[/TD]

[TD]

.464​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Connor McDavid[/TD]

[TD]

.574​

[/TD]

[TD]

.452​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]

[TD]

.612​

[/TD]

[TD]

.634​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Frank Drebin]

Not really, the Hart is the most prestigious trophy. I get the argument as to why you'd argue the Conn Smyth means so much, but at the end of the day, it's based on a 20 game sample size or so and it's only available to such a small population of players and no matter how good you are and how well you play in all aspects of the game.....you can't get yourself in that potential population (i.e. basically the team that wins the cup) by yourself....so yeah, important award, but has drawbacks in terms of how important.

Right on sounds like we agree on this. And I hate to be the guy to denigrate Crosby when discussing McDavid but that 2016 win was the definition of "well we have to give the award to *somebody* and its not the first time nor will it be the last where the Conn Smythe winner didn't really have a playoff performance for the ages.

I could see if McDavid had a pile of lackluster playoffs to date but he's literally been the best player in the world the past two post seasons so when I see someone has the opinion that he's not a winner or he can't lead I can't help but simply dismiss their opinion.

McDavid's last two playoff runs:
53 pts in 28 games (1.89 pts/game), +14

Crosby during his Conn Smythe runs:
46 pts in 48 games (.96 pts/game), +2

It is an absolute myth that Crosby is a better playoff performer than McDavid.

The Crosby vs McDavid arguments are silly now and are going to look even more silly in 15 years.

 

[Toby91ca]

Right on sounds like we agree on this. And I hate to be the guy to denigrate Crosby when discussing McDavid but that 2016 win was the definition of "well we have to give the award to *somebody* and its not the first time nor will it be the last where the Conn Smythe winner didn't really have a playoff performance for the ages.

I could see if McDavid had a pile of lackluster playoffs to date but he's literally been the best player in the world the past two post seasons so when I see someone has the opinion that he's not a winner or he can't lead I can't help but simply dismiss their opinion.


The Crosby vs McDavid arguments are silly now and are going to look even more silly in 15 years.

Well....I give Crosby credit for it though....he put up points that are hard to come by, especially in the playoffs and especially for guys like Crosby. Don't forget, every game PIT plays in the playoffs, their #1 game plan is to find ways to keep Crosby off the scoresheet.....but agree with you, it's not like it was God like or stuff of legends, but it typically isn't. Fair earning of the award and it has meaning, but as I said, shouldn't carry a signifcant amount of weight. Typically that award goes to the guy who happened to catch a hot streak at the right time.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Well....I give Crosby credit for it though....he put up points that are hard to come by, especially in the playoffs and especially for guys like Crosby. Don't forget, every game PIT plays in the playoffs, their #1 game plan is to find ways to keep Crosby off the scoresheet.....but agree with you, it's not like it was God like or stuff of legends, but it typically isn't. Fair earning of the award and it has meaning, but as I said, shouldn't carry a signifcant amount of weight. Typically that award goes to the guy who happened to catch a hot streak at the right time.

Sure. I thought he deserved it over Kessel at the time and I still think he deserved it today. As you said the game plan was to shut Crosby down, which took attention off other players...like Kessel, which was valuable in itself.

 

[Voight]

He wouldn't, but highlight reels are no way to judge a player. They show what a player can do, not what a player does, and does consistently, which is much more important.

Rick Nash probably has a more visually impressive highlight reel than Crosby does. You can go support him in the YouTube comments.

I usually don't agree with your posts.... but this is spot on

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid's last two playoff runs:
53 pts in 28 games (1.89 pts/game), +14

Crosby during his Conn Smythe runs:
46 pts in 48 games (.96 pts/game), +2

It is an absolute myth that Crosby is a better playoff performer than McDavid.

Oh, that’s easy to wave away. Scoring is up 16%. That surely explains away a 100% difference between the two.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Third best forward all time when its all said and done. If he keeps it up at least

 

[Voight]

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

It has to be AI. Everyone and their mother knows this part just isn't true, the Art Ross winner has won the Hart 12 out of 18 seasons post lockout.

1. Art Ross and Hart Trophy in the Same Season: McDavid achieved the rare feat of winning both the Art Ross Trophy and the Hart Memorial Trophy in the same season, accomplishing this in 2016-17 and 2020-21

 

[Voight]

Conn Smythe should be one of the most prestigious trophies over all else. As it showcases that when the games are important, you have been seen to excel and lead beyond all others.

It's also an award that only 40 something odd players can win.

Right on sounds like we agree on this. And I hate to be the guy to denigrate Crosby when discussing McDavid but that 2016 win was the definition of "well we have to give the award to *somebody* and its not the first time nor will it be the last where the Conn Smythe winner didn't really have a playoff performance for the ages.

I could see if McDavid had a pile of lackluster playoffs to date but he's literally been the best player in the world the past two post seasons so when I see someone has the opinion that he's not a winner or he can't lead I can't help but simply dismiss their opinion.


The Crosby vs McDavid arguments are silly now and are going to look even more silly in 15 years.

The gatekeeping from Crosby fans is something else.

 

[Video Nasty]

Right on sounds like we agree on this. And I hate to be the guy to denigrate Crosby when discussing McDavid but that 2016 win was the definition of "well we have to give the award to *somebody* and its not the first time nor will it be the last where the Conn Smythe winner didn't really have a playoff performance for the ages.

We should also never forget that in real time, we had just lived with Crosby having played his 11th regular season and not owning a Conn Smythe heading into those 2016 playoffs, after they were expected to win again sometime shortly after their 2009 win. There was a general uneasiness after some of their collapses (thanks mostly to Fleury) that time was running out.

The voters took the first opportunity available to them to correct this. I firmly feel he would have been passed over if they knew the Penguins were going to repeat as they did.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's also an award that only 40 something odd players can win.



The gatekeeping from Crosby fans is something else.

I like Crosby. Nothing against the guy or his fans. But I'd like to think that if Connor Bedard came in and outperformed McDavid to the degree that McDavid has with Crosby I would simply concede that he was a better player, and not try to hang on to whatever McDavid still has "over" him.

And its not all Crosby fans. In fact its probably mostly not Crosby fans. A lot of this nonsense is from people who primarily dislike the Oilers/McDavid for whatever reasons. The bias is clear as day.

 

[Drytoast]

I like Crosby. Nothing against the guy or his fans. But I'd like to think that if Connor Bedard came in and outperformed McDavid to the degree that McDavid has with Crosby I would simply concede that he was a better player, and not try to hang on to whatever McDavid still has "over" him.

And its not all Crosby fans. In fact its probably mostly not Crosby fans. A lot of this nonsense is from people who primarily dislike the Oilers/McDavid for whatever reasons. The bias is clear as day.

Explain how it is that Conor gets shut down in the playoffs where it matters?

 

[Video Nasty]

I like Crosby. Nothing against the guy or his fans. But I'd like to think that if Connor Bedard came in and outperformed McDavid to the degree that McDavid has with Crosby I would simply concede that he was a better player, and not try to hang on to whatever McDavid still has "over" him.

And its not all Crosby fans. In fact its probably mostly not Crosby fans. A lot of this nonsense is from people who primarily dislike the Oilers/McDavid for whatever reasons. The bias is clear as day.

Absolutely. I know I’ve commented something along these lines before Bedard entered the league, but I want nothing more than the hot new talent to come in and make the previous generational player look like a simpleton in comparison. That's exciting to me.

 

[Video Nasty]

Explain how it is that Conor gets shut down in the playoffs where it matters?

He doesn’t really get shut down.

Don’t you remember all the times that Fleury cost Crosby and the Penguins a chance to exit the first round or advance further than they did from 2010-2014? The Oilers situation was and may still be even worse.

If we’re going to throw stones, where was Crosby when Fleury did play well in the first round of 2015 against the Rangers when the Penguins needed more than the 3 total goals they scored in Games 3-5? A couple of assists in those games wasn’t going to cut it.

It’s a team game. And time is running out on this tired argument.

I’d suggest thinking of what it will be next after McDavid and the Oilers likely win a Cup either this postseason or 2025.

Here’s a head start. The goal posts will be moved after he wins his first until he matches the arbitrary totals of Crosby in this team-focused accomplishment.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

He's already surpassed Crosby what are you guys on about....compare him to other greats because Sid is already in the rearview mirror

 

[Mohar Ikram]

He's already surpassed Crosby what are you guys on about....compare him to other greats because Sid is already in the rearview mirror

Not in winning and creating legacy though.

Sid doesn't have anything to prove anymore.

McD still have EVERYTHING to prove because he WON SHIT. As long as he did not win anything teamwise, his individual accolades is meaningless and pointless since the goal is always winning championships (which he has none).

We're talking in GOATS area here. Championship matter. No Chips, Get Lost.

 

[Drytoast]

He doesn’t really get shut down.

Don’t you remember all the times that Fleury cost Crosby and the Penguins a chance to exit the first round or advance further than they did from 2010-2014? The Oilers situation was and may still be even worse.

If we’re going to throw stones, where was Crosby when Fleury did play well in the first round of 2015 against the Rangers when the Penguins needed more than the 3 total goals they scored in Games 3-5? A couple of assists in those games wasn’t going to cut it.

It’s a team game. And time is running out on this tired argument.

I’d suggest thinking of what it will be next after McDavid and the Oilers likely win a Cup either this postseason or 2025.

Here’s a head start. The goal posts will be moved after he wins his first until he matches the arbitrary totals of Crosby in this team-focused accomplishment.

As of right now, Draisaitl currently has more points and more goals than McDavid in the playoffs.

Is Draisaitl better then Connor?

 

[Video Nasty]

As of right now, Draisaitl currently has more points and more goals than McDavid in the playoffs.

Is Draisaitl better then Connor?

Don’t reply to me if you have zero intent of commenting on the content of my post.

 

[Drytoast]

Don’t reply to me if you have zero intent of commenting on the content of my post.

Connor will not win a Stanley in Edmonton. Because unlike Crosby, Connor can't "will" his team to a cup.

 

[North Cole]

Connor will not win a Stanley in Edmonton. Because unlike Crosby, Connor can't "will" his team to a cup.

Confirmed Connor McDavid is not a purple alien

 

[Drytoast]

Confirmed Connor McDavid is not a purple alien

View attachment 799501

Connor McDavid! The hockey player we grade on based on points, except when points don't work in his favor!

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Connor McDavid! The hockey player we grade on based on points, except when points don't work in his favor!

He is 4th all time in playoff ppg, you are making literally zero sense


For McDavid to be better than Crosby he has to outscore Lemieux and Gretzky? That’s where we’re at?

 

[North Cole]

Connor McDavid! The hockey player we grade on based on points, except when points don't work in his favor!

Sorry was that too Marvel? I could go with Ra's al Ghul if you're more of a DC fan. I'm fine if you use points, he wins that argument.

Crosby! The hockey player we grade based on pace, except when pace doesn't work in his favor! Then we use Chakras!

 

[AppreciateHockey]

So weird how the 1C on a cup winning team the past 15 years plays a 2-way game and are often in the running for a Selke (and therefore sacrifices points for a more complete team game). Off of memory:

2023-Jack Eichel (Totally bought into the 2-way game that playoffs, should have won Smythe, also Barkov in the finals)

2022-Nathan MacKinnon (should have won Smythe)
2019-Ryan O'Reilly (won Smythe, also Patrice Bergeron in the finals)

2018-Alex Ovechkin (should have won Smythe, from what I know played different and more responsible under Barry Trotz)

2016/2017-Sidney Crosby (won Smythe, could have gone to Letang in 2016, 5th in selke voting if memory serves right)

2015-Jonathan Toews
2014-Anze Kopitar
2013-Jonathan Toews (also Patrice Bergeron in the finals)
2012-Anze Kopitar
2011- Patrice Bergeron (Also Ryan Kesler in the finals)
2010-Jonathan Toews (won Smythe)
2008-Henrik Zetterberg (won Smythe)

Btw, points are just naked stats like plus/minus. Says nothing without linemates, usage, opposition, era i.e. context. So those McDavid vs Crosby playoff stats might aswell be apples and oranges at this point.

Also to rank Gretzky, Lemieux, McDavid, Crosby, Orr, Howe and the rest after that is a fools errand anyway. Different eras, teams, playstyles, health, what have you.

Edit: McDavid! On pace to win a Stanley Cup. On pace to 2nd all time.

Edit2: McDavid devotees like ripping into Crosby. Crosby atleast took his Pens from 29th in the league in his draft year to 2 Finals and 1 Cup win in year 3 and 4. Not by himself ofcourse but McDavid is far from surrounded by a garbage team. (Mostly a garbage GM and front office.)

Edit3: Just a thought. If Matthews never wins a cup with the Maple Leafs, will McDavid devotees be just as forgiving with his all time ranking? Or imagine if Crosby had not won a cup and lost those 3 finals. And lost against the US in 2010. Winning matters. Its different from getting points. Its getting dirty and beat up. I love Kucherov but i'm not gonna say Kucherov>Crosby just because he got back to back 30 points in the playoffs.

 

[Drytoast]

He is 4th all time in playoff ppg, you are making literally zero sense


For McDavid to be better than Crosby he has to outscore Lemieux and Gretzky? That’s where we’re at?

Well it would help if in the playoffs, he at least could outscore all of the current Edmonton Oilers...