Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Drytoast]

You cant be bothered to verify your own arguments on a messageboard? Guess we know where to file your opinion. Never seen that before.

As I've said of which you verified, the two are not close to personal and team accolades.

give or take an art ross.

So my point still stands. /shrug.

 

[Thallis]

I used chatgpt to generate a quick list from both. I guess it was inaccurate. Odd because if you ask it individual questions, it gets the answers correctly.
View attachment 799304

I really don't give a shit as the main point was Conor is woefully behind Crosby on personal awards.

This is embarrassing lmao

 

[Drytoast]

He lost the Calder in 2015-16, barely playing any games. 2016-2017, he barely outperformed Crosby, who had just played a ton of games and had a slow start. When the playoffs came around, McDavid didn’t perform well against the ducks and Crosby wins the Conn Smythe. Not exactly an H.Sedin type argument being formed here.

Don’t be like that, you know the Conn Smythe is a factor.

Conn Smythe should be one of the most prestigious trophies over all else. As it showcases that when the games are important, you have been seen to excel and lead beyond all others.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Conn Smythe should be one of the most prestigious trophies over all else. As it showcases that when the games are important, you have been seen to excel and lead beyond all others.

Interesting. You have Jonathan Marchessault, Ryan O Reilly , Justin Williams and Cam Ward ahead of players like Jagr and Hasek?

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Connor is amazing, but so is nostalgia.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Cant forget that Conn Smythe in 2016 where Crosby finished 6th in playoff scoring with 19 points in 24 games. But was very solid defensively.

Conn Smythe trophy is objectively a joke compared to the other awards.

 

[Drytoast]

Interesting. You have Jonathan Marchessault, Ryan O Reilly , Justin Williams and Cam Ward ahead of players like Jagr and Hasek?

Ya I think there is something incredibly important about being the guy to lead your team to championships.

Stanley Cups are the end goals. Not scoring titles.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Ya I think there is something incredibly important about being the guy to lead your team to championships.

Stanley Cups are the end goals. Not scoring titles.

chat gpt and now this. I've seen enough lmao.

 

[Drytoast]

chat gpt and now this. I've seen enough lmao.

championships...schmampionships...

 

[Frank Drebin]

championships...schmampionships...

yes, Braden Point is better than Auston Matthews. Moving on.

 

[High five Tom]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

No

 

[WalterLundy]

To preface I think adjustments are overused and flawed to a degree that renders them nothing more than a questionable tool but this still does prove a point in a way in regards to McDavid’s status.

1979-80 to 1992-93 Live puck era G/GP: 3.74
1994-95 lockout G/GP: 2.99
1993-94 and 1995-96 high scoring year for elite scorers akin to 80s G/GP: 3.19
1996-97 transitional year G/GP: 2.92
1997-98 to 2003-04 G/GP: 2.66
2005-06 to 2009-10 G/GP: 2.91
2010-11 to 2016-17 G/GP: 2.74
2017-18 to present G/GP: 3.06

Here are scoring environments broken up and here is a list of the top 10 post lockout (2005-06 onward) seasons from their own environments adjusted to 2017-18 to present levels:

23 McDavid: 153 in 82 (1.87)
06 Thornton: 131 in 81 (1.62)
06 Jagr: 129 in 82 (1.57)
19 Kucherov: 128 in 82 (1.56)
23 Draisaitl: 128 in 80 (1.60)
07 Crosby: 126 in 79 (1.59)
22 McDavid: 123 in 80 (1.54)
12 Malkin: 122 in 75 (1.63)
07 Thornton: 120 in 82 (1.46)
09 Malkin: 119 in 82 (1.45)

2013 and 2021 shortened season (56 games in 21 and 48 in 13) Honorable mentions:

21 McDavid: 105 in 56 (154 in 82) (1.88)
21 Draisaitl: 84 in 56 (123 in 82) (1.50)
13 Crosby: 63 in 36 (109 in 62) (1.75)
*10-11 to 12-13 peak Crosby stretch:
178 in 99 GP (147 in 82) (1.79)

This alone shows how elite McDavid is. Nobody within 20 points of him from the post lockout era.

Here are the only seasons from 1980 to present that outdo McDavid’s 2023 (or 2021) adjusted to 2017-18 to present levels:

86 Gretzky: 176 in 80 (2.20)
82 Gretzky: 174 in 80 (2.18)
85 Gretzky 170 in 80 (2.13)
84 Gretzky: 168 in 74 (2.27)
89 Lemieux: 163 in 76 (2.14)
83 Gretzky: 160 in 80 (2.00)
96 Lemieux: 154 in 70 (2.20)

Again this shows just how great McDavid is. I’m pretty sure that anyone who saw Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux play will always conclude that they were the better player than McDavid but I think some people conflate that with “greatest” player or better career. Because of shortened careers, McDavid has an opportunity via longevity and award accumulation to have the second best career behind Gretzky (who is untouchable honestly). Whether that’s likely or not is what this thread I think is about but that’s the premise.

 

[Drytoast]

yes, Braden Point is better than Auston Matthews. Moving on.

Auston Matthews absolutely disappears in games that matter. Even if he somehow does manage to put up SOME points, he is not impacting games with his play.

That's actually his biggest issue.

So ya, if Crosby isn't putting up points but is leading his team to victory in other ways...block shots, diving to poke a puck out of his head, hitting or battleing which drives the play of his team mates...THAT MATTERS. More than the odd goal here or secondary assist there.

Conor has disappeared and been nullified in some series. He becomes invisible, and Draisaitl has out performed him. That matters.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Auston Matthews absolutely disappears in games that matter. Even if he somehow does manage to put up SOME points, he is not impacting games with his play.

That's actually his biggest issue.

So ya, if Crosby isn't putting up points but is leading his team to victory in other ways...block shots, diving to poke a puck out of his head, hitting or battleing which drives the play of his team mates...THAT MATTERS. More than the odd goal here or secondary assist there.

Conor has disappeared and been nullified in some series. He becomes invisible, and Draisaitl has out performed him. That matters.

Have a good day bro.

 

[Drytoast]

Have a good day bro.

If you don't want to engage with me, stop standing on a platform announcing it. Just don't engage and move on. You are not winning any virtue points here by constantly engaging with me to declare you are not engaging with me.

 

[Frank Drebin]

If you don't want to engage with me, stop standing on a platform announcing it. Just don't engage and move on. You are not winning any virtue points here by constantly engaging with me to declare you are not engaging with me.

I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt. Consider it done.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

You know what I hate about modern day sports?

1) Recency bias
2) People use stats to standardize the player output without considering the era they are being, with what capacity they play and how the pattern of the game is AT THAT CERTAIN TIME.
3) Impact to the game on and off the game in current and future plays

This thread sums it all.

 

[Video Nasty]

You cant be bothered to verify your own arguments on a messageboard? Guess we know where to file your opinion. Never seen that before.

Dry Take has no integrity. Anyone who blames the tool they’re using and can’t take personal responsibility for a comment on a message board of all things isn’t meant to be taken seriously.

 

[Drytoast]

Dry Take has no integrity. Anyone who blames the tool they’re using and can’t take personal responsibility for a comment on a message board of all things isn’t meant to be taken seriously.

And yet my point still stood, regardless of the exact amount of Art Ross trophies Crosby has actually won.

 

[Toby91ca]

Cant forget that Conn Smythe in 2016 where Crosby finished 6th in playoff scoring with 19 points in 24 games. But was very solid defensively.

Conn Smythe trophy is objectively a joke compared to the other awards.

Who should have won in 2016? If you want to start with playoff scoring, Crosby was 6th, but of the 5 guys ahead, only 1 should get any consideration and that's Kessel. Would you really vote for Kessel and his 3 extra points over Crosby? You start with the center who has way more responsibility to begin with, then you see that he the far harder match ups game to game, then you see he won 16% more faceoffs than anyone else in the playoffs, 44% more than anyone on his team, then you consider he's the captain and leader of his team....an extra 3 points from Kessel is nowhere near enough to overcome that. Oveckhin was able to win it over Kuznetsov for a lot of the same reasons, but having less. So, to me, Crosby would have been the clear choice over Kessel and then the only other options would have been a Dman (no compelling choice) or the goaltender...that is really the debate.....for me it was between Crosby and Murray and Murray just didn't seem to be the right choice.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Who should have won in 2016?

Doesn't that sum up the argument against the Conn Smythe trophy being the end all of all trophies right there?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Stop with the personal attacks. There won't be another public warning.

 

[Toby91ca]

In terms of the main topic of this....I'm not sure if I read anything other than page 65, but I think most need to be open to the possibility of McDavid bumping someone out of the top 4. He's not there today and I don't think he'll get there to be honest, but suggesting it's not possible doesn't seem appropriate either. If you look at each:

- Wayne - he's locked in, no one is going to touch him (won't say ever, but no one we've seen yet)
- Orr - I don't think he gets bumped either by anyone yet....the one argument is going to be his short career, but he did so much during that short career, I think it would be very difficult for McDavid to overcome during the remaining years of his career, where he will see some decline at some point.....though that is one of the things too....Orr didn't play long enough for a decline.
- Lemieux - it's hard to argue against Howe and his longevity and level he played for all those years....Wayne still sees him as the best ever...so that does hold some weight. With respect though, as others noted, you do need to consider level of competition and it simply wasn't the same as today.....but likely not enough of an argument to push anyone past just yet.
- Mario - basically same bucket as Orr here.....argument will be shortened career, but he did so much with the games he played, hard to make an argument. Similar to Orr, however, if he played 1,500+ games, his per game stats would certainly not be the same.

 

[Toby91ca]

Doesn't that sum up the argument against the Conn Smythe trophy being the end all of all trophies right there?

Not really, the Hart is the most prestigious trophy. I get the argument as to why you'd argue the Conn Smyth means so much, but at the end of the day, it's based on a 20 game sample size or so and it's only available to such a small population of players and no matter how good you are and how well you play in all aspects of the game.....you can't get yourself in that potential population (i.e. basically the team that wins the cup) by yourself....so yeah, important award, but has drawbacks in terms of how important.

 

[crowfish]

Conor has disappeared and been nullified in some series. He becomes invisible, and Draisaitl has out performed him. That matters.

McDavid's last two playoff runs:
53 pts in 28 games (1.89 pts/game), +14

Crosby during his Conn Smythe runs:
46 pts in 48 games (.96 pts/game), +2

It is an absolute myth that Crosby is a better playoff performer than McDavid.