Toggle sidebar

Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Voight said:
This is what I've been saying for a while. Hes in a good spot because he's in a league of his own (as opposed to Crosby who was neck and neck with Ovechkin, Lemieux who was overshadowed by Gretzky) and there really isn't anyone to challenge his hegemony.

He has a chance to equal Lemieux in Art Ross trophies, pass him in Hart trophies this season.
Click to expand...
Except for the two guys dominating him in the scoring race right now. And the other guys who have beaten him healthy to mvps in his prime
 
Tasty Biscuits said:
Not really. More teams means the talent pool is further diluted and it's easier for the cream to rise to the top.
Click to expand...

Yeah but there’s a lot more cream there too. It’s undeniably harder to win a Cup with more teams, back in the original 6 era your chances were much higher mathematically that you would play for a Cup winner at some point in your career, plus you only had to win 2 rounds to win the Cup. In a 21 team league only 6 teams failed to make the playoffs whereas now it’s literally half the league.
 
Sol said:
I still think he’s better than Gretzky regardless of what the old heads say.
Click to expand...

Well he’s better than everyone who ever played if you take them all exactly as they were in their prime and plop them on the same ice as McDavid tomorrow, greater though is not in the realm of possibilities, although he has an outside chance at surpassing Lemieux and Orr in all-time rankings.
 
Hockey Outsider said:
Dionne was also a really bad playoff performer (relative to how he did in the regular season). I did a deep dive into this 15 years ago. One of the newspaper articles said (paraphrasing) that you'd need a microscope to find Dionne on the ice. In the past two playoff runs alone, McDavid scored more points than Dionne did in his entire career, in significantly fewer games, in a lower scoring era.

I realize that casual fans will expect/require McDavid to win a Cup in order to turn join the "big five". But if McDavid never wins a Cup, he shouldn't be compared to Dionne - he's already played at a much higher level, in back to back playoff runs.

(That's an interesting question that should be posted on HOH - who's the best playoff performer in NHL history to never win a Stanley Cup? A few preliminary guesses - Brad Park, Henrik Lundqvist, and Connor McDavid).
Click to expand...

Curious what your opinion is on @Dreakmur 's post here.

ATD 2010 Bios

New Haven Nighthawks, Center, Joe Nieuwendyk. Position: C Shoots: Left Height: 6-2 Weight: 205 lbs. Born: September 10, 1966 in Oshawa, Ontario Awards and Achievements 3-Time Stanley Cup Winner (1989, 1999, 2003) 1-Time Conn Smythe Trophy Winner (1999) Calder Memorial Trophy Winner (1988)...
forums.hfboards.com forums.hfboards.com

(I don't disagree with you, just wondering what your thoughts are since you did a deep dive)
 
Luigi Lemieux said:
He's gotta win to be top 5, just the way it is. If it was only about winning art rosses, Jagr would be #5 now and ranked ahead of Crosby. But he's not.
Click to expand...

Jagr is not a good comparison to McDavid.

Jagr is not on a list with only Gretzky and Lemieux as the only players with 3+ Harts, 5+ Rosses, 4+ Pearsons.

Jagr has never led the league in assists & goals in the same season like McDavid, Gretzky, & Lemieux have.

It's not even the stats that make McDavid impressive, he has the best stats of course, but when you watch him play it's like another level that has never been reached in the modern game. He could retire tomorrow and will have the best career highlight reel of all time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WalterLundy
Nathaniel said:
Except for the two guys dominating him in the scoring race right now. And the other guys who have beaten him healthy to mvps in his prime
Click to expand...

"Dominating?" You are aware McDavid has played 6 fewer games and has a very similar PPG rate? Let's chat when he gets within 2gp of those guys (McD was injured two games, so he needs to make up the ground in fewer games)

As for the MVP awards... with due respect, Matthews won his MVP nearly entirely based on his Rocket that year (and Toronto limelight). McDavid outscored him by 18 points. As for Kucherov, that was a monster season... McDavid missed 4 games, but unlikely he'd have caught him... having said that 22 is a stretch to say "prime". All four McDavid seasons since then he has had a higher PPG, including two that were 0.30/game higher than Kucherov's best ever (which was an outlier). At 22 McD was only just scratching the surface - we've seen an entirely new level since then, don't pretend otherwise.
 
crowfish said:
Jagr is not a good comparison to McDavid.

Jagr is not on a list with only Gretzky and Lemieux as the only players with 3+ Harts, 5+ Rosses, 4+ Pearsons.

Jagr has never led the league in assists & goals in the same season like McDavid, Gretzky, & Lemieux have.

It's not even the stats that make McDavid impressive, he has the best stats of course, but when you watch him play it's like another level that has never been reached in the modern game. He could retire tomorrow and will have the best career highlight reel of all time.
Click to expand...

I see what you’re getting at but Jagr is literally the best comparison to McDavid historically. Fully offensive players who have similar career highs in points, played for crap defensive teams with crap goaltending in their primes, can’t get past the 2nd round while being dominant offensively, same number of scoring titles so far and Jagr has more elite goal scoring seasons than McDavid does and a similar career high there as well. Does McDavid lead the league in goals or assists let alone both if he plays his peak during 1995-96? He likely gets beat in goals and assists to 70 game Lemieux just as Jagr did.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bambamcam4ever
crowfish said:
And so did Toews... and yet nobody will have him within 30 spots of McDavid on an all-time greatness ranking list. I am sure Crosby is not the only one worse at hockey than McDavid who has "lead" their team to a Cup.

I get a laugh at the whole narrative about Crosby "leading" his teams to Cups. 3pts in 7 games during his first Cup, so clutch. Imagine the Oilers winning a series if McDavid was that bad? lol, they would get swept, let alone go 7. Crosby is a .8 pts per game player in the finals, he has never carried once during the 4 chances he has had.
Click to expand...
ill still take Crosby over McDavid to build a team around. he's also a real leader.....
laugh all you like. so far McDavid could go down as the best player to win nothing. far from 2nd best all time bud

also I dont care about Toews
 
  • Like
Reactions: pekka55 and Hank Plank
authentic said:
I see what you’re getting at but Jagr is literally the best comparison to McDavid historically. Fully offensive players who have similar career highs in points, played for crap defensive teams with crap goaltending in their primes, can’t get past the 2nd round while being dominant offensively, same number of scoring titles so far and Jagr has more elite goal scoring seasons than McDavid does and a similar career high there as well. Does McDavid lead the league in goals or assists let alone both if he plays his peak during 1995-96? He likely gets beat in goals and assists to 70 game Lemieux just as Jagr did.
Click to expand...

It can be the closest comparison, and still be a bad comparison. Jagr was never the best player in the league when he won those Art Rosses. Mario needed to be injured for him to win those. If he was far and away the best player of his generation during that span, then it would compare to McDavid. It would be like if Draisaitl won the next 4 Art Rosses while McDavid missed time with injuries.
 
authentic said:
Well he’s better than everyone who ever played if you take them all exactly as they were in their prime and plop them on the same ice as McDavid tomorrow, greater though is not in the realm of possibilities, although he has an outside chance at surpassing Lemieux and Orr in all-time rankings.
Click to expand...
I don’t like the greater than his peers logic. The NHL wasn’t good when he was in the game. The NHL right now is at the pinnacle of sports science /health. I have a hard time seeing there be a significantly better player than McDavid in the future. For that reason, McDavid is definitely better than Gretzky.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: sanscosm
crowfish said:
It can be the closest comparison, and still be a bad comparison. Jagr was never the best player in the league when he won those Art Rosses. Mario needed to be injured for him to win those. If he was far and away the best player of his generation during that span, then it would compare to McDavid. It would be like if Draisaitl won the next 4 Art Rosses while McDavid missed time with injuries.
Click to expand...

That’s your first mistake is believing Jagr is more comparable to Draisaitl than McDavid. Maybe in play style but not offensive skill and visible dominance.

Sol said:
I don’t like the greater than his peers logic. The NHL wasn’t good when he was in the game. The NHL right now is at the pinnacle of sports science /health. I have a hard time seeing there be a significantly better player than McDavid in the future. For that reason, McDavid is definitely better than Gretzky.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to some extent but I don’t know one day I think we will see a significantly better player. Also Gretzky was still really good in the early 90s when the talent pool and top end talent from around the world was fairly close to today, but his dominance in the 80s is something he wouldn’t have done today.
 
authentic said:
That’s your first mistake is believing Jagr is more comparable to Draisaitl than McDavid. Maybe in play style but not offensive skill and visible dominance.
Click to expand...

I am not the one making a mistake here.

Here is Jagr compared to the league through his first 8 seasons:

8th in pts/game

jagr.png


Here is Draisaitl compared to the league through his first 8 seasons:

8th in pts/game

dra.png



Here is McDavid's first 8 years:

1st in pts/game

mcd.png


Jagr is not in McDavid's universe. On the other hand, he and Draisatl have almost the exact same career trajectories through the first 8 seasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcdingdong
crowfish said:
I am not the one making a mistake here.

Here is Jagr compared to the league through his first 8 seasons:

8th in pts/game

View attachment 799060

Here is Draisaitl compared to the league through his first 8 seasons:

8th in pts/game

View attachment 799065


Here is McDavid's first 8 years:

1st in pts/game

View attachment 799061

Jagr is not in McDavid's universe. On the other hand, he and Draisatl have almost the exact same career trajectories through the first 8 seasons.
Click to expand...

Jagr has 5 scoring titles and finished 2nd to Lemieux twice. Also was narrowly beaten by peak Thornton but was still the best offensive player in 2005-06 with 54 goals at age 34. Just because he was buried on lower lines in his first few seasons doesn’t make him more comparable to Draisaitl. Did you happen to watch Jagr play in his prime? If you did you should not be questioning the fact that he’s more comparable to McDavid than Draisaitl. If you didn’t that’s a little more understandable but still wrong.
 
Last edited:
authentic said:
Jagr has 5 scoring titles and finished 2nd to Lemieux twice. Also was narrowly beaten by peak Thornton but was still the best offensive player in 2005-06 with 54 goals at age 34. Just because he was buried on lower lines in his first few seasons doesn’t make him more comparable to Draisaitl. Did you happen to watch Jagr play in his prime? If you did you should not be questioning the fact that he’s more comparable to McDavid than Draisaitl. If you didn’t that a little more understandable but still wrong.
Click to expand...

Was Jagr far and away the best player in the league during his first 8 seasons? If the answer to that is no... then the McDavid comparison is not a good one.

Jagr was the best in the league for how many years, exactly? 2003-2005?? (truly the best talent, not just by technicality from Mario retiring)

Just move on, McDavid is not comparable to someone who was 8th in pts/game thru their first 8 years. That is just a fact.
 
crowfish said:
Was Jagr far and away the best player in the league during his first 8 seasons? If the answer to that is no... then the McDavid comparison is not a good one.

Jagr was the best in the league for how many years, exactly? 2003-2005?? (truly the best talent, not just by technicality from Mario retiring)

Just move on, McDavid is not comparable to someone who was 8th in pts/game thru their first 8 years. That is just a fact.
Click to expand...

2003-2005? Those were his seasons in Washington where he wasn’t the best for a while, but beyond that that’s a pretty simplistic way of looking at things. Let’s just totally ignore the player he became because he didn’t immediately get 1st line minutes on a Stanley Cup powerhouse featuring Lemieux as an 18 and 19 year old.
 
crowfish said:
Was Jagr far and away the best player in the league during his first 8 seasons? If the answer to that is no... then the McDavid comparison is not a good one.

Jagr was the best in the league for how many years, exactly? 2003-2005?? (truly the best talent, not just by technicality from Mario retiring)

Just move on, McDavid is not comparable to someone who was 8th in pts/game thru their first 8 years. That is just a fact.
Click to expand...
Dude you never watched Jagr play a single game did you lol. 2003-05? And McDavid would lose every art ross as well if he had to go up against Lemieux. Can't hold that against Jagr.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sanscosm
You assume he will continue his play. He may not be able to have the kind of speed and start to see more injuries as he ages. He is special but he has to win and be a real contender for years for cups to be in that club. That is a winners club.
 
crowfish said:
Jagr is not a good comparison to McDavid.

Jagr is not on a list with only Gretzky and Lemieux as the only players with 3+ Harts, 5+ Rosses, 4+ Pearsons.

Jagr has never led the league in assists & goals in the same season like McDavid, Gretzky, & Lemieux have.

It's not even the stats that make McDavid impressive, he has the best stats of course, but when you watch him play it's like another level that has never been reached in the modern game. He could retire tomorrow and will have the best career highlight reel of all time.
Click to expand...
He wouldn't, but highlight reels are no way to judge a player. They show what a player can do, not what a player does, and does consistently, which is much more important.

Rick Nash probably has a more visually impressive highlight reel than Crosby does. You can go support him in the YouTube comments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Voight, sanscosm, Hockey Outsider and 1 other person
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom