Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[authentic]

I suppose they could mean all the little aspects of the game including different shots, passing, deflections, hand-eye, board work, edge work, positioning, IQ, etc. Others can be better overall players or two-way players due to being more superlative at certain things, but maybe they think he’s good at the most things. Though even that seems a bit questionable at his age.

Yeah all around and two-way are different things. Crosby is probably the best all around player of all-time when you break down how many different skills he excels at, but there is no case for him being the best two-way player when there are players who are better both offensively and defensively.

 

[pekka55]

He only needs a cup or two. He will not get those in Edmonton.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

A few points I wanted to touch on here.

1. It’s interesting how people ignore the goals tie breaker in the points race when it comes to this tidbit about Howe being top 5 in points for 20 seasons in a row. Same points and games played for Howe and Henri Richard, but Richard potted 30 goals to 28 for Howe. Splitting hairs perhaps and no less impressive that Howe was top 5 for 10 years in a row, then technically 6th, then top 5 for another 9 years in a row, but no one ever talks about that distinction.

2. Howe played half of the first game of his team’s first Cup winning run. Again, no one ever brings this up when boasting about his four Cups. He also had an underwhelming Crosby-esque 1 goal and 2 assists in a 7 game win over Montreal in 1954, where he was 5th on his team in scoring. Mario missed 6 games during the 1992 win, I bring it up all the time, but he indisputably has two signature Cup winning runs versus one for Howe (1955), who actually has more rings to his name.

3. Two rounds and only 8 wins needed versus four rounds and 16 wins. All Detroit had to do in Howe’s day was beat mediocre Toronto (all four times they won the Cup) and they were headed to the Finals.

4. The obvious one. Gordie Howe wouldn’t be winning as many Harts and Art Rosses with Gretzky overlapping his career. You’re dinging Lemieux because he finished runner up in the Hart race to Gretzky twice and that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Howe played 25 seasons in what was essentially a 6 team league and, like you pointed out, only was part of 3 cup wins. That really isn't impressive at all and it's less than you would expect from the average player.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

2006-14 slightly different
1. Crosby 1.40
3. Ovechkin 1.20

And Ovi played 679 games. Sid's ppg with 679 games was 1.33
So it's not 1.42/1.18 difference. It's 1.33/1.20

NHL Stats

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No, his injuries kept his per game stats high.

No it's 1.42 to 1.18. I'm not fudging any numbers, it's their cumulative ppgs between 06-07 and 13-14.

 

[authentic]

Howe played 25 seasons in what was essentially a 6 team league and, like you pointed out, only was part of 3 cup wins. That really isn't impressive at all and it's less than you would expect from the average player.

I’m surprised Howe only won 3 Cups, could’ve sworn he won 5 or 6.

 

[Fatass]

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McDavid leads a club to the Cup and he can get into the conversation.

 

[RickyLafleur]

McDavid is the best because of his combination of speed and skill which is so far ahead of his current peers but he will not be able to touch Mario, Wayne and Orr until he starts winning some cups.

 

[crowfish]

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McDavid leads a club to the Cup and he can get into the conversation.

Once Crosby is as good as McDavid he can get into the conversation for top 5

 

[Voight]

McDavid is the best because of his combination of speed and skill which is so far ahead of his current peers but he will not be able to touch Mario, Wayne and Orr until he starts winning some cups.

This is what I've been saying for a while. Hes in a good spot because he's in a league of his own (as opposed to Crosby who was neck and neck with Ovechkin, Lemieux who was overshadowed by Gretzky) and there really isn't anyone to challenge his hegemony.

He has a chance to equal Lemieux in Art Ross trophies, pass him in Hart trophies this season.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

lol this thread kills me.
no he wont. it's just that simple

Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux over McDavid. he has a chance to jump ahead of Howe and that's really it. and even there I dunno if he ever will. questionable if he will ever truly earn 5th best of all time.

you can argue it all you want but until McDavid leads his team to atleast one cup. there will always be people saying he doesn't deserve 5th best,

How many people argue Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Howe don't belong in the top 4?

Once Crosby is as good as McDavid he can get into the conversation for top 5

Crosby lead his team to 3 cups bud.

 

[Voight]

it really doesn’t. If a player scored 3000 points would you not consider him to be the best player ever because he never won a cup? Even if he shattered Wayne gretzky’s record?

Of course an extreme example, but the Stanley cup isn’t a barometer for player ability. Sure it helps beef up a players legacy, but if we’re talking about Pure hockey ability from an individual stand point, then it just doesn’t make sense why you would punish someone for being on an incompetent team.

And if you’re alluding to Mcdavid being the problem and reason why they’re not winning, then you just straight up don’t watch the oilers.

Also hockey has probably the highest parity out of the major sports.

I agree, but the cups thing always sidelines guys like Dionne. Which is unfair, but everyone these days is obsessed with championships.

He's sixth all time in points, was among the league leaders in points during his prime, but has been relatively forgotten about because he never won. Now, that's not his fault - he spent most of his prime on the post expansion LA Kings who weren't very good.

 

[ZDH]

Mario >>> McDavid

 

[pekka55]

The reality is that it's never happened in history that the clear cut best player in the world wouldn't win at least a few championships. In any f***ing sport ever.

So if it happens to McDavid, then he's making history. And not in a good way. Just tells you how god awful the management in Edmonton is.

McDavid should really already have a couple of finals appearances and at least one cup. Maybe this generation just don't really have that killer instinct and will to win. Maybe they're just happy to collect their millions instead and play Fortnite.

 

[authentic]

The reality is that it's never happened in history that the clear cut best player in the world wouldn't win at least a few championships. In any f***ing sport ever.

So if it happens to McDavid, then he's making history. And not in a good way. Just tells you how god awful the management in Edmonton is.

McDavid should really already have a couple of finals appearances and at least one cup. Maybe this generation just don't really have that killer instinct and will to win. Maybe they're just happy to collect their millions instead and play Fortnite.

Not only that but 32 teams now makes it harder. Lemieux didn’t even make the playoffs his first 4 seasons in a 21 team league.

 

[pekka55]

Not only that but 32 teams now makes it harder. Lemieux didn’t even make the playoffs his first 4 seasons in a 21 team league.

It's bad for the whole league also if the face of the NHL isn't winning cups. Americans like winners and you can't really sell them on McDavid being the best if he's actually not winning rings. They're losing out on a shit ton of marketability and publicity.

I mean half the world knows Gretzky. No one knows who the f*** McDavid even is globally.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The reality is that it's never happened in history that the clear cut best player in the world wouldn't win at least a few championships. In any f***ing sport ever.

That is false IMO.

Mike Trout was very obviously the clear cut best player in baseball for a time. He didn't even come close to a championship.

Dan Marino, Barry Bonds, Ty Cobb, and Randy Moss also were arguably best players who didn't win championships.

Of course, in hockey this particular factoid is a sliding scale with the league having gone from 6 teams to 32.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby lead his team to 3 cups bud.

Crosby's team also won 51 games (the most for them in the past 20 seasons) in a season where Crosby barely played (2012).

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Not only that but 32 teams now makes it harder. Lemieux didn’t even make the playoffs his first 4 seasons in a 21 team league.

Not really. More teams means the talent pool is further diluted and it's easier for the cream to rise to the top.

 

[Drytoast]

Once Crosby is as good as McDavid he can get into the conversation for top 5

He's proven he was clutch when it mattered which is why he has cups and a gold medal.

 

[crowfish]

Crosby lead his team to 3 cups bud.

And so did Toews... and yet nobody will have him within 30 spots of McDavid on an all-time greatness ranking list. I am sure Crosby is not the only one worse at hockey than McDavid who has "lead" their team to a Cup.

I get a laugh at the whole narrative about Crosby "leading" his teams to Cups. 3pts in 7 games during his first Cup, so clutch. Imagine the Oilers winning a series if McDavid was that bad? lol, they would get swept, let alone go 7. Crosby is a .8 pts per game player in the finals, he has never carried once during the 4 chances he has had.

He's proven he was clutch when it mattered which is why he has cups and a gold medal.

.8 pts /game guy in the finals, so clutch. Funny how many have been brainwashed into the narrative that he is some sort of clutch playoff performer. Go look at the numbers. He has 6 pts in 8 career game 7s as well.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I agree, but the cups thing always sidelines guys like Dionne. Which is unfair, but everyone these days is obsessed with championships.

He's sixth all time in points, was among the league leaders in points during his prime, but has been relatively forgotten about because he never won. Now, that's not his fault - he spent most of his prime on the post expansion LA Kings who weren't very good.

Dionne was also a really bad playoff performer (relative to how he did in the regular season). I did a deep dive into this 15 years ago. One of the newspaper articles said (paraphrasing) that you'd need a microscope to find Dionne on the ice. In the past two playoff runs alone, McDavid scored more points than Dionne did in his entire career, in significantly fewer games, in a lower scoring era.

I realize that casual fans will expect/require McDavid to win a Cup in order to turn join the "big five". But if McDavid never wins a Cup, he shouldn't be compared to Dionne - he's already played at a much higher level, in back to back playoff runs.

(That's an interesting question that should be posted on HOH - who's the best playoff performer in NHL history to never win a Stanley Cup? A few preliminary guesses - Brad Park, Henrik Lundqvist, and Connor McDavid).

 

[Drytoast]

And so did Toews... and yet nobody will have him within 30 spots of McDavid on an all-time greatness ranking list. I am sure Crosby is not the only one worse at hockey than McDavid who has "lead" their team to a Cup.

I get a laugh at the whole narrative about Crosby "leading" his teams to Cups. 3pts in 7 games during his first Cup, so clutch. Imagine the Oilers winning a series if McDavid was that bad? lol, they would get swept, let alone go 7. Crosby is a .8 pts per game player in the finals, he has never carried once during the 4 chances he has had.



.8 pts /game guy in the finals, so clutch. Funny how many have been brainwashed into the narrative that he is some sort of clutch playoff performer. Go look at the numbers. He has 6 pts in 8 career game 7s as well.

vs

Come on son. Sid has this easy.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

He's gotta win to be top 5, just the way it is. If it was only about winning art rosses, Jagr would be #5 now and ranked ahead of Crosby. But he's not.

 

[Sol]

I still think he’s better than Gretzky regardless of what the old heads say.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I agree, but the cups thing always sidelines guys like Dionne. Which is unfair, but everyone these days is obsessed with championships.

He's sixth all time in points, was among the league leaders in points during his prime, but has been relatively forgotten about because he never won. Now, that's not his fault - he spent most of his prime on the post expansion LA Kings who weren't very good.

Dionne's team also stacked his line at the expense of depth- boosting his point totals but leading to little postseason success. Not dissimilar to the McDavid Oilers.