Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Hockey Outsider]

Publicly posting as a History regular that @Hockey Outsider speaks for me on any issues, past, present, or future.

Haha, time to start posting controversial opinions about Kirk McLean!

 

[Fishy McScales]

I find it funny that winning championships matters for every sport except for hockey and McDavid.

The value of winning championships gets somewhat diluted with all these leagues growing so much, though.

There was a much greater probability for Howe to win the cup than it is for today's players.

Haha, time to start posting controversial opinions about Kirk McLean!

Tell us more

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I’m just saying your logic is flawed.

If you think that number of Stanley cups won is the metric to define how good a player is, then I personally think your argument has little merit.

if McDavid never wins he will go down as the best player to never win anything and thats the way it goes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Really how so?

It clearly shows Mario with a significant advantage but I guess one can always bash adjusted stats because they don't line up with a preconceived POV?

One of those “seasons” was 56 games to start with.. but yes, you can almost always trash adjusted stats if your point of view is having read and understood all the problems with them that have been demonstrated here for years and years on end..

 

[Ninety7]

if McDavid never wins he will go down as the best player to never win anything and thats the way it goes.

And that’s fine. And it says nothing about his ability as a hockey player.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Tell us more

Kirk McLean is universally beloved and it's impossible to make a controversial opinion about him because he's objectively delightful.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

if McDavid never wins he will go down as the best player to never win anything and thats the way it goes.

I think he’s already the best player to never win a Cup tbh

 

[crowfish]

if McDavid never wins he will go down as the best player to never win anything and thats the way it goes.

He can be the 2nd greatest of all-time and the greatest to never win. No problem.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Great player, let's wait until he wins a cup. At this point he's better than Dionne.

 

[Bank Shot]

When he loses that explosive speed due to age we will see how it affects him.

You mean, if he loses that explosive speed.

Mike Gartner won the fastest skater comp at 36. Guys like Marchant, Cogliano, Chimera were all average players that lasted into their late 30s because they were still speed demons.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You mean, if he loses that explosive speed.

Mike Gartner won the fastest skater comp at 36. Guys like Marchant, Cogliano, Chimera were all average players that lasted into their late 30s because they were still speed demons.

It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when.. father time is undefeated.

 

[Hank Plank]

Why do you keep ignoring the Osgood/Lundqvist question? Is it because you realize your entire argument falls apart?

And yes, anyone who follows hockey knows who a recent HoF inductee is. Sure of a hell lot more than a random average player who’s won a cup

I seem to have touched a nerve.

 

[wetcoast]

One of those “seasons” was 56 games to start with.. but yes, you can almost always trash adjusted stats if your point of view is having read and understood all the problems with them that have been demonstrated here for years and years on end..

You are letting the "perfect" get in the way of a pretty decent metric that gives a pretty good ballpark comparison between different offensive seasons post expansion and definitely by the early 70s.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when.. father time is undefeated.

Sure. He could lose his speed at 28 or 38. I'm thinking 38 but who knows.

 

[crossicepass]

I didn't read through all the comments so I ask your forbearance if this has already come up.

Not all that long ago (2015-16) at the age of 43, Jaromir Jagr had 27 goals and 66 pts in 79 games for The Panthers and was a +23. Any NHL team today would gladly take that from a top 6 winger.

Jagr accrued those lofty numbers against Jonathan Quick, Henrik Lundqvist, Sergei Bobrovsky, Carey Price and Marc Andre Fleury and Martin Jones et. al.

None of the aforementioned could be described as slow, small, unathletic, and lacking technique.

I wonder what a 25 to 30 year old Jagr might have done in 15/16? One assumes he surpasses 27/66.

The point being that Jagr has said himself that even in his natural prime... he was no Mario Lemeiux.

Ask yourself then what prime Lemeiux does in 15/16? And make no mistake 15/16 should be considered as part of 'the modern era'.

Now I see Connor McDavid do things that amaze me nearly EVERY SINGLE GAME and I have no doubt that he's going to win Cups and go down as one of the greatest to ever play the game. But I've never seen the likes of Mario Lemieux.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Publicly posting as a History regular that @Hockey Outsider speaks for me on any issues, past, present, or future.

Reading his post on this subject, I think he can speak for me as well.

I didn't read through all the comments so I ask your forbearance if this has already come up.

Not all that long ago (2015-16) at the age of 43, Jaromir Jagr had 27 goals and 66 pts in 79 games for The Panthers and was a +23. Any NHL team today would gladly take that from a top 6 winger.

Jagr accrued those lofty numbers against Jonathan Quick, Henrik Lundqvist, Sergei Bobrovsky, Carey Price and Marc Andre Fleury and Martin Jones et. al.

None of the aforementioned could be described as slow, small, unathletic, and lacking technique.

I wonder what a 25 to 30 year old Jagr might have done in 15/16? One assumes he surpasses 27/66.

The point being that Jagr has said himself that even in his natural prime... he was no Mario Lemeiux.

Ask yourself then what prime Lemeiux does in 15/16? And make no mistake 15/16 should be considered as part of 'the modern era'.

Now I see Connor McDavid do things that amaze me nearly EVERY SINGLE GAME and I have no doubt that he's going to win Cups and go down as one of the greatest to ever play the game. But I've never seen the likes of Mario Lemieux.

You're pro rating a 43 year old jagr against his opinion of Mario lemieux. Interesting

 

[Bank Shot]

It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when.. father time is undefeated.

Well obviously he will retire at some point.

But for example if McDavid doesn't start losing his legs until he's 37 well than its not really going to impact the legacy of his career.

 

[oilexport]

Mario and Conner were the most amazing players I've seen, along with Bure. Wayne is the GOAT, slightly above Mario.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I seem to have touched a nerve.

It’s hilarious when a person won’t answer a simple question and then claim they’ve won a debate.

Who do you think is rated higher, Osgood or Lundqvist? Who has more prestige?

And if you think it’s Osgood, why isn’t he in the HoF ? Why does he make zero “all time great” NHL lists?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

My gut feeling is that you have the right ranges here for them all.

Then again, who knows? It was only a few years ago all the kids were saying that 150 points was utterly impossible because players and goaltenders were bionic superheroes now and therefore Crosby was literally the best hockey player of all time and he'd score 300 points a season in the 80s and 90s against the beerleaguers.

The reality is that Crosby, while the best player in the league during his prime, was not on the same level. Talent and scoring levels ebb and flow and rules etc. change so you never know.. I know it is hard for people who have never seen Lemieux and Gretzky at their actual bests to understand just how special they were, but now McDavid is showing that sometimes there is an "it" factor that transcends all the training and systems and stuff that people were blabbing about the past 20 years when we didn't have one of the players with "it".

A few years ago league scoring was much lower and goalie pads were much bigger. Today's McDavid wouldn't hit 150+ in 2010-16 either.

Adjusting for era Crosby and McDavid are actually quite close offensively. Era adjusted through 600 games, McDavid has 125 points per 82 games, Crosby has 121. Crosby lead the NHL in points per game 6 years in a row, he just had to deal with serious injuries. The first half of his career was in a much rougher NHL. And Crosby's overall game much better. Heck Marchand thinks Crosby is the best even today.

Marchand stated, “A lot of the attention is on the younger guys, but if you look at the details of the game, and full 200 feet, he’s by far the best player in the league, him and (MacKinnon).”

"He’s direct. He plays safe but he plays hard and direct. He plays a winning game"

Marchand Names Crosby as NHL’s Best All-Around Player by Far

Brad Marchand wants to make sure people don't forget about Sidney Crosby in a discussion of the NHL's elite.The Boston Bruins winger believes the Pittsburgh Penguins star and another Nova Scotian center, Nathan MacKinnon of the Colorado Avalanche,...

fanrecap.com

 

[Dust]

A few years ago league scoring was much lower and goalie pads were much bigger. Today's McDavid wouldn't hit 150+ in 2010-16 either.

Adjusting for era Crosby and McDavid are actually quite close offensively. Era adjusted through 600 games, McDavid has 125 points per 82 games, Crosby has 121. Crosby lead the NHL in points per game 6 years in a row, he just had to deal with serious injuries. The first half of his career was in a much rougher NHL. And Crosby's overall game much better. Heck Marchand thinks Crosby is the best even today.

Marchand stated, “A lot of the attention is on the younger guys, but if you look at the details of the game, and full 200 feet, he’s by far the best player in the league, him and (MacKinnon).”

"He’s direct. He plays safe but he plays hard and direct. He plays a winning game"

Marchand Names Crosby as NHL’s Best All-Around Player by Far

Brad Marchand wants to make sure people don't forget about Sidney Crosby in a discussion of the NHL's elite.The Boston Bruins winger believes the Pittsburgh Penguins star and another Nova Scotian center, Nathan MacKinnon of the Colorado Avalanche,...

fanrecap.com

Marchand and Crosby are buddies and train together in the offseason (along with Mackinnon). Of course he's going to think and speak highly of his Nova Scotian buddies. I wouldn't put too much stock in that, he's just talking up his friends as friends like to do.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

And that’s fine. And it says nothing about his ability as a hockey player.

It does. There's a reason nearly every top player in every sport wins. If he cheats for offense, the rest of his team isn't going to play hard two way hockey either.

 

[Bank Shot]

It does. There's a reason nearly every top player in every sport wins. If he cheats for offense, the rest of his team isn't going to play hard two way hockey either.

As if Mario ever played hard two way hockey and he won more than once.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

As if Mario ever played hard two way hockey and he won more than once.

And he played great defense in those two runs. Should have done it more often tbh but he was saddled with injuries himself the second half of his career.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

He can be the 2nd greatest of all-time and the greatest to never win. No problem.

He's not stepping over Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux sorry bud