Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[BraveCanadian]

A few years ago league scoring was much lower and goalie pads were much bigger. Today's McDavid wouldn't hit 150+ in 2010-16 either.

Adjusting for era Crosby and McDavid are actually quite close offensively. Era adjusted through 600 games, McDavid has 125 points per 82 games, Crosby has 121. Crosby lead the NHL in points per game 6 years in a row, he just had to deal with serious injuries. The first half of his career was in a much rougher NHL. And Crosby's overall game much better. Heck Marchand thinks Crosby is the best even today.

Marchand stated, “A lot of the attention is on the younger guys, but if you look at the details of the game, and full 200 feet, he’s by far the best player in the league, him and (MacKinnon).”

"He’s direct. He plays safe but he plays hard and direct. He plays a winning game"

Marchand Names Crosby as NHL’s Best All-Around Player by Far

Brad Marchand wants to make sure people don't forget about Sidney Crosby in a discussion of the NHL's elite.The Boston Bruins winger believes the Pittsburgh Penguins star and another Nova Scotian center, Nathan MacKinnon of the Colorado Avalanche,...

fanrecap.com

If your era adjusting has Crosby and McDavid close offensively, then you need to check your method.

Yes scoring is up and Crosby is an all time great, but McDavid is a step up offensively.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

If your era adjusting has Crosby and McDavid close offensively then you need to check your method.

Yes scoring is up and Crosby is an all time great, but McDavid is a step up offensively.

Sorry, it was era adjusted at 900 points, not 600 games.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Sorry, it was era adjusted at 900 points, not 600 games.
View attachment 797214

I think people forget how far ahead of everyone Crosby was during his prime. His hardware just doesn't reflect that because of his injuries.

Actual points per game from 2006-14

1. Crosby 1.42
2. Malkin 1.22
3. Ovechkin 1.18
4. St Louis 1.07
5. Thornton 1.05

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He's not stepping over Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux sorry bud

Mario Lemeiux couldn't carry this sorry franchise.

 

[Sentinel]

Reading his post on this subject, I think he can speak for me as well.


You're pro rating a 43 year old jagr against his opinion of Mario lemieux. Interesting

A 28 y.o. Jagr was better than a 43 y.o. Jagr.
A 28 y.o. Lemiuex was better than a 28 y.o. Jagr.

 

[Macheteops]

A few years ago league scoring was much lower and goalie pads were much bigger. Today's McDavid wouldn't hit 150+ in 2010-16 either.

Adjusting for era Crosby and McDavid are actually quite close offensively. Era adjusted through 600 games, McDavid has 125 points per 82 games, Crosby has 121. Crosby lead the NHL in points per game 6 years in a row, he just had to deal with serious injuries. The first half of his career was in a much rougher NHL. And Crosby's overall game much better. Heck Marchand thinks Crosby is the best even today.

Marchand stated, “A lot of the attention is on the younger guys, but if you look at the details of the game, and full 200 feet, he’s by far the best player in the league, him and (MacKinnon).”

"He’s direct. He plays safe but he plays hard and direct. He plays a winning game"

Marchand Names Crosby as NHL’s Best All-Around Player by Far

Brad Marchand wants to make sure people don't forget about Sidney Crosby in a discussion of the NHL's elite.The Boston Bruins winger believes the Pittsburgh Penguins star and another Nova Scotian center, Nathan MacKinnon of the Colorado Avalanche,...

fanrecap.com

Nova Scotia boy saying other Nova Scotia boys are the best! I ll side with their peers that keep voting McDavid

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Nova Scotia boy saying other Nova Scotia boys are the best! I ll side with their peers that keep voting McDavid

I mean Crosby just won most complete player in the nhlpa player poll. So much of the league thinks he has the best 200 ft game.

 

[Frank Drebin]

A 28 y.o. Jagr was better than a 43 y.o. Jagr.
A 28 y.o. Lemiuex was better than a 28 y.o. Jagr.

Do we just cross multiply?

 

[wetcoast]

Marchand and Crosby are buddies and train together in the offseason (along with Mackinnon). Of course he's going to think and speak highly of his Nova Scotian buddies. I wouldn't put too much stock in that, he's just talking up his friends as friends like to do.

Sure but Marchand still has a point in how he describes the play of Crosby right?

 

[Ninety7]

It does. There's a reason nearly every top player in every sport wins. If he cheats for offense, the rest of his team isn't going to play hard two way hockey either.

it really doesn’t. If a player scored 3000 points would you not consider him to be the best player ever because he never won a cup? Even if he shattered Wayne gretzky’s record?

Of course an extreme example, but the Stanley cup isn’t a barometer for player ability. Sure it helps beef up a players legacy, but if we’re talking about Pure hockey ability from an individual stand point, then it just doesn’t make sense why you would punish someone for being on an incompetent team.

And if you’re alluding to Mcdavid being the problem and reason why they’re not winning, then you just straight up don’t watch the oilers.

Also hockey has probably the highest parity out of the major sports.

 

[Bank Shot]

And he played great defense in those two runs. Should have done it more often tbh but he was saddled with injuries himself the second half of his career.

That's what they said about Ovechkin too when he won his Cup. I didn't notice a big shift in his play though. The narrative always goes like that, but I think more of it comes down to just getting the saves from your goalie.

 

[Randyne]

I think people forget how far ahead of everyone Crosby was during his prime. His hardware just doesn't reflect that because of his injuries.

Actual points per game from 2006-14

1. Crosby 1.42
2. Malkin 1.22
3. Ovechkin 1.18
4. St Louis 1.07
5. Thornton 1.05

2006-14 slightly different
1. Crosby 1.40
3. Ovechkin 1.20

And Ovi played 679 games. Sid's ppg with 679 games was 1.33
So it's not 1.42/1.18 difference. It's 1.33/1.20

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

His hardware just doesn't reflect that because of his injuries.

No, his injuries kept his per game stats high.

 

[Hank Plank]

It’s hilarious when a person won’t answer a simple question and then claim they’ve won a debate.

I never claimed that and don't care.

Who do you think is rated higher, Osgood or Lundqvist? Who has more prestige?

And if you think it’s Osgood, why isn’t he in the HoF ? Why does he make zero “all time great” NHL lists?

Obviously Lundqvist is rated 500x higher because that's the point you've chosen to beat to death.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I never claimed that and don't care.

Obviously Lundqvist is rated 500x higher because that's the point you've chosen to beat to death.

So wait… it isn’t all about Cups when it comes to prestige? Who would of thought!

 

[authentic]

I think people forget how far ahead of everyone Crosby was during his prime. His hardware just doesn't reflect that because of his injuries.

Actual points per game from 2006-14

1. Crosby 1.42
2. Malkin 1.22
3. Ovechkin 1.18
4. St Louis 1.07
5. Thornton 1.05

Strange how people talk about the flaws of the adjustments but then you look at how far ahead he was of his peers and they match up quite well.

 

[WalterLundy]

Strange how people talk about the flaws of the adjustments but then you look at how far ahead he was of his peers and they match up quite well.

Points per game since 2015-16:

McDavid: 1.50
Kucherov: 1.29
Draisaitl: 1.22
MacKinnon : 1.20
Crosby: 1.15

The stats he selected were actually from 2007 to 2014. Two things can be true here of course. There is similar separation from the pack for sure but also adjusted stats are becoming overused and are flawed.

The difference is really that Crosby played less games than the other members of the top 5 for PPG during the stretch posted. Not that he wouldn’t have been able to maintain it but him missing games actually leads to Ovechkin having the most total points during that span. McDavid on the other hand has 126 more points than number 2 Draisaitl since 2015-16.

As a matter of fact even if you start back in 2013-14 and go to the present McDavid’s 903 in 602 games still clear what anyone else has totaled since with a 2.5 year head start considering his rookie year injury and still being in the OHL in 13-14 and 14-15. Second place Crosby has 878 in 757 GP. 2013-14 is Kucherov and MacKinnon’s rookie year and predates Draisaitl’s for perspective. This should be valued more than point per game separation from peers for a prime stretch when playing less games that would be roughly equal anyway. It’s actually remarkable.

Also the level of the competition needs to be considered here too. Obviously Malkin and Ovechkin are great but I’d say that MacKinnon and even an older Crosby are better than Joe Thornton and Martin St.Louis. At least in my opinion they are. The further I go down the list for each span’s leaders I think the same as well at least for point production.

When you look at the adjusted numbers per 82 games at 900 points scored we see McDavid at 125 and Sid at 121. Definitely close but I think the gap will widen as time goes on statistically. If anyone remembers how good Crosby really was I can attest but I do believe I’d have to give McDavid the nod. You aren’t wrong here though.

 

[RegDunlop]

That's what they said about Ovechkin too when he won his Cup. I didn't notice a big shift in his play though. The narrative always goes like that, but I think more of it comes down to just getting the saves from your goalie.

This.

Stevie Y couldn't win without becoming a 'complete' player.
What a load of shit.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think McDavid is great but he is not better than Mario. I say that as a NYR fan who was not a fan of Mario.

 

[braunm]

I’m not sure. I strongly believe Mario was more talented than McDavid-that will never change.
However, I believe it likely that by the end of his career, McDavid will be ranked as greater than Mario.
Talent is NOT the same as Greatness.

 

[Video Nasty]

I’m not sure. I strongly believe Mario was more talented than McDavid-that will never change.
However, I believe it likely that by the end of his career, McDavid will be ranked as greater than Mario.
Talent is NOT the same as Greatness.

Spot on. McDavid is not going to suddenly unlock a new capability that elevates his game another tier to make me believe he is a better player than Mario.

But…

If he has a long complete career ala Gretzky and Howe, well personally, I value being almost as good as Lemieux and Orr in their time, yet playing the combined career of both, more, even though I firmly believe that McDavid would only be winning Art Rosses if Lemieux played less than 60 games (so still a good chance).

I think some people in the hockey world need to get comfortable with the idea that there is going to be a very vocal crowd ranking McDavid behind only Gretzky, and it’s probably going to be within 5 years, especially if the Oilers win a Cup. It will only compound further once the dust has settled on his career and we can look at the final product, assuming nothing catastrophic happens…

Though if it does, surely he would get the same treatment they do…right?

 

[authentic]

Points per game since 2015-16:

McDavid: 1.50
Kucherov: 1.29
Draisaitl: 1.22
MacKinnon : 1.20
Crosby: 1.15

The stats he selected were actually from 2007 to 2014. Two things can be true here of course. There is similar separation from the pack for sure but also adjusted stats are becoming overused and are flawed.

The difference is really that Crosby played less games than the other members of the top 5 for PPG during the stretch posted. Not that he wouldn’t have been able to maintain it but him missing games actually leads to Ovechkin having the most total points during that span. McDavid on the other hand has 126 more points than number 2 Draisaitl since 2015-16.

As a matter of fact even if you start back in 2013-14 and go to the present McDavid’s 903 in 602 games still clear what anyone else has totaled since with a 2.5 year head start considering his rookie year injury and still being in the OHL in 13-14 and 14-15. Second place Crosby has 878 in 757 GP. 2013-14 is Kucherov and MacKinnon’s rookie year and predates Draisaitl’s for perspective. This should be valued more than point per game separation from peers for a prime stretch when playing less games that would be roughly equal anyway. It’s actually remarkable.

Also the level of the competition needs to be considered here too. Obviously Malkin and Ovechkin are great but I’d say that MacKinnon and even an older Crosby are better than Joe Thornton and Martin St.Louis. At least in my opinion they are. The further I go down the list for each span’s leaders I think the same as well at least for point production.

When you look at the adjusted numbers per 82 games at 900 points scored we see McDavid at 125 and Sid at 121. Definitely close but I think the gap will widen as time goes on statistically. If anyone remembers how good Crosby really was I can attest but I do believe I’d have to give McDavid the nod. You aren’t wrong here though.

Older Crosby is not a better point producer than prime Thornton, so looking at separation over peers in terms of point production would not favour Crosby for this example, even 36 year old Thornton came top 5 in points which Crosby hasn’t done for a while now, but I agree that older Crosby is still probably the better overall player, I would take him in the playoffs over Thornton atleast.

All in all you are correct that there is a little more offensive talent now and also McDavid is the better offensive player, but Crosby is always much closer than people imagine was all I was getting at due to the lower scoring era and never getting to put together a full season at his peak due to concussions.

 

[authentic]

I mean Crosby just won most complete player in the nhlpa player poll. So much of the league thinks he has the best 200 ft game.

Crosby is not the best two-way player in the game. All around includes intangibles like leadership and other off ice things I imagine. Like he is not even better offensively than Barkov or defensively than Matthews so how could he be the best 200ft player?

 

[Coffey]

This.

Stevie Y couldn't win without becoming a 'complete' player.
What a load of shit.

If only someone taught Gretz how to be a complete player after leaving Edmonton

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby is not the best two-way player in the game. All around includes intangibles like leadership and other off ice things I imagine. Like he is not even better offensively than Barkov or defensively than Matthews so how could he be the best 200ft player?

His peers seem to disagree with you.

 

[Regal]

Crosby is not the best two-way player in the game. All around includes intangibles like leadership and other off ice things I imagine. Like he is not even better offensively than Barkov or defensively than Matthews so how could he be the best 200ft player?

I suppose they could mean all the little aspects of the game including different shots, passing, deflections, hand-eye, board work, edge work, positioning, IQ, etc. Others can be better overall players or two-way players due to being more superlative at certain things, but maybe they think he’s good at the most things. Though even that seems a bit questionable at his age.