Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[kugelbahn]

Top-2 is too much. He is 40 Goals per Season player. McD scored 64 last year which might be an outlier. On pace to 32 goals this season, probably will get 40+.
But he will be Top-5 IMO.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

They show what a player can do, not what a player does, and does consistently, which is much more important.

This is a really well-phrased observation.

 

[kugelbahn]

vs
View attachment 798949

Come on son. Sid has this easy.

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

 

[crowfish]

Dude you never watched Jagr play a single game did you lol. 2003-05? And McDavid would lose every art ross as well if he had to go up against Lemieux. Can't hold that against Jagr.

Answer the question, in which years was Jagr the undisputed best player in the world?, (including if Lemiuex would be playing) My 03-05 guess was so laughable so you must have a better answer. For McDavid it is 2016 to 2023, now it's your turn. I don't even know why someone would take exception to McDavid being on another level than Jagr, it's an obvious fact lol. You would need to be delusional to think otherwise.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Answer the question, in which years was Jagr the undisputed best player in the world?, (including if Lemiuex would be playing) My 03-05 guess was so laughable so you must have a better answer. For McDavid it is 2016 to 2023, now it's your turn. I don't even know why someone would take exception to McDavid being on another level than Jagr, it's an obvious fact lol. You would need to be delusional to think otherwise.

I'm not going to include Lemieux, because McDavid would be second to him too. So without Mario, Jagr was the best player in the league from 94-01.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Numbers say otherwise. Without SId, PIT plays better, without McDavid, EDM play worse.

This is simply false. Few players in NHL history have ever improved their team's results at even strength to the extent that Crosby has.

I don't want to turn this into (yet another) Crosby vs Ovechkin debate, but here's an old post where I show, year by year, how consistently good Crosby was at improving his team's goal differential when he was on the ice.

Longtime History forum regular overpass posted some all-time data as of 2020, looking at players' on- and off-ice goal differentials. At the time, Crosby was around 98th/99th percentile all-time (in terms of which players improved their team's goal differential to the greatest extent, while on the ice at ES - min 500 GP). Some of the names Crosby finished ahead of include strong two-way forwards like Stan Mikita, Bryan Trottier, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov, Mike Modano, Patrice Bergeron, Doug Gilmour. Plus, he's ahead of some very strong offense-oriented forwards like Guy Lafleur, Bobby Hull, Steven Stamkos, Pavel Bure, and yes - Alex Ovechkin. As is the case with every stat, there's context we need to consider - but these are very impressive results.

Plus, just from watching Crosby, it isn't difficult to see that he hugely drives the quality of his team's play at ES. So the "advanced" stats are consistent with what our eyes are telling us.

Crosby has some flaws in his resume, but suggesting that Pittsburgh plays better without him is a brazenly wrong idea.

(EDIT - for the record, the data shows that McDavid has been a huge driver of his team's on ice results so far in his career. This should come as no surprises to anybody who's watched the Oilers over the past eight years).

 

[authentic]

He wouldn't, but highlight reels are no way to judge a player. They show what a player can do, not what a player does, and does consistently, which is much more important.

Rick Nash probably has a more visually impressive highlight reel than Crosby does. You can go support him in the YouTube comments.

Lol outside of that one goal I’m not too sure about this. Crosby’s highlight reels are insane that showcase his puck protection, deflections, no look passes, backhands, edgework, speed and dangles in open ice, (then there’s also the one handed goal that he lifted over the goalie) etc., infact to some extent I agree with what that poster was saying because the goals and plays McDavid makes on a regular basis look better than the best of all-time greats career highlight reels.

 

[crowfish]

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

ChatGPT has spoken. Sid is king.

 

[Video Nasty]

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

I think ChatGPT only provides data through 2021. Dry Take is too lazy to do the work to make his stance more current and Nathaniel is super into Crosby fairy tales, so he’ll like anything.

 

[Coffey]

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

Because people nowadays don’t like to fact check. So post lies and your narrative will win.

 

[ChrisProngersEYE]

I'll just say any list without Ovechkin's name on it is incorrect. That is final!

 

[Squiffy]

Boy, he is a special player and fun to watch, and is gonna be in an all-time conversation somewhere in the… top 10-ish maybe? Top 20/25 as a floor?

Edit: too low a floor I think. 15-20 I’ll go.

There’s a lot to do the crack in to top 4. We’ll know it when we see it and nobody will be debating it, that’s the standard. Not impossible, lots of years left but not the trajectory to me.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Curious what your opinion is on @Dreakmur 's post here.

ATD 2010 Bios

New Haven Nighthawks, Center, Joe Nieuwendyk. Position: C Shoots: Left Height: 6-2 Weight: 205 lbs. Born: September 10, 1966 in Oshawa, Ontario Awards and Achievements 3-Time Stanley Cup Winner (1989, 1999, 2003) 1-Time Conn Smythe Trophy Winner (1999) Calder Memorial Trophy Winner (1988)...

forums.hfboards.com

(I don't disagree with you, just wondering what your thoughts are since you did a deep dive)

He put together a good bio for Dionne. Some of the quotes talk about how he's a tougher, more energetic player than he often gets credit for (which is consistent with what I found when I was looking at newspaper articles from his career). But I don't think any of the quotes really addresses the reality that, to a a large extent, Dionne produced way less in the postseason.

One of the quotes from that link was "he always played on terrible teams". Nobody is faulting Dionne for not winning the Cup; it would have been almost impossible given how bad the Kings were. But I think it's fair to criticze his production for dropping so significantly. From 1975 to 1985 (his prime - this captures all eight times he was a top ten scorer), he scored 1.48 PPG (4th in PPG min 300 games). His scoring plumetted 48% in the spring to exactly 1 PPG (we're dealing with small sample sizes, but that's less than non-HOH players like Stever Larmer, Bobby Smith, Ken Linseman, Barry Pederson, and Paul Reinhart).

The table near the bottom of the bio argues that 1 PPG isn't bad for the era. I find that part misleading. Many of the players listed were far better two-way players (Clarke, Trottier, Lemaire, Gilmour, Propp). You know that Dionne's playoff production is disappointing when he's getting compared to lower-end HOF'ers like Dino Ciccarelli, Steve Shutt, Joe Mullen, Jean Ratelle and Mike Gartner.

I think there's little separating Dionne and Joe Sakic in the regular season. But HOH typically ranks Sakic around 30 spots ahead on all-time lists. I think they (we) got that right - the gap really is massive.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Answer the question, in which years was Jagr the undisputed best player in the world?, (including if Lemiuex would be playing) My 03-05 guess was so laughable so you must have a better answer. For McDavid it is 2016 to 2023, now it's your turn.

Well 2016 McDavid is coming off a rookie season where he gets injured and loses the Calder, while Crosby led the penguins to a cup and snagged the Smythe. 2017 Crosby finishes the regular season a hair behind McDavid, being second in points, 1st in goals, and 2nd in Hart voting. However, he finishes the season with back to back cups and another Smythe while McDavid is coming off a lackluster performance to the ducks.

It’s not until 2018 does McDavid start to feel like the best player in the league. However those first couple years are touch and go where he has to prove himself over Kucherov’s 2019 campaign and drai’s 2020 campaign where they both looked just as good or better than McDavid.

2020 and on feels like when McDavid becomes undisputed. Just one man’s opinion of course. Cheers.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I'm not going to include Lemieux, because McDavid would be second to him too. So without Mario, Jagr was the best player in the league from 94-01.

I can’t understand this Jagr hype on these boards. The guy was a fantastic offensive player, but I never considered him to be the best player.

During those years you cited I consider Jagr a footnote to the best defensemen and goaltenders we have ever seen lace them up in Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Pronger, Bourque, Big Al, Lidstrom, etc, all during a time when coaching systems were better able to leverage the above name’s talent as well.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Numbers say otherwise. Without SId, PIT plays better, without McDavid, EDM play worse.

lmao so break it down season by season, show your work or am I suppose to just take your word for it?

 

[Drytoast]

Is this generated by AI or something?
Crosby has two Art Ross trophies, not three. Two Rockets, not one.
McD has five Art Rosses, not three.

Why post easily verifiable BS?

I used chatgpt to generate a quick list from both. I guess it was inaccurate. Odd because if you ask it individual questions, it gets the answers correctly.

I really don't give a shit as the main point was Conor is woefully behind Crosby on personal awards.

 

[Bank Shot]

Yeah all around and two-way are different things. Crosby is probably the best all around player of all-time when you break down how many different skills he excels at, but there is no case for him being the best two-way player when there are players who are better both offensively and defensively.

Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe were better all around players than Crosby.

 

[WalterLundy]

Answer the question, in which years was Jagr the undisputed best player in the world?, (including if Lemiuex would be playing) My 03-05 guess was so laughable so you must have a better answer. For McDavid it is 2016 to 2023, now it's your turn. I don't even know why someone would take exception to McDavid being on another level than Jagr, it's an obvious fact lol. You would need to be delusional to think otherwise.

Once again two things can be true at the same time. Yes McDavid in my mind is better than Jagr was but Jagr in his prime from a level of play standpoint was indeed comparable to McDavid and better than what Crosby was able to show offensively for sure. To me Jagr was the best player in the world from 1997-98 to 2001. At least the best skater.

Also Mario or no Mario, Jagr would have been the best player in the league from 98-99 to 00-01 regardless. In the two years leading up to Mario’s retirement in 1997 Jagr was entering his peak and Mario was exiting his prime altogether. 1995-96 Mario was still clearly the better player but people forget that Jagr outscored him at even strength for points and points per game. The first half of ‘96 inflated everyone’s totals and Mario’s powerplay prowess allowed a substantial gap to be formed but in the second half of that season Mario’s pace went down to 147 and Jagr’s to 130. In 1996-97 their 82 game paces were 132 to 124 in Mario’s favor with Jagr scoring more goals per game and leading the NHL. The gap had closed by the end of 1996-97. Mario himself even said that Jagr was the best player in the world (wish I could find the quote). It wasn’t just because Mario retired. A 32-34 year old Mario would in my mind be worse than a 25-27 year old Jagr in ‘98-‘00

I believe Lemieux may have been able to hold on as an equal in 97-98 but once 98-99 rolls around Jagr at his peak would have been clearly better than a 33 year old Mario who doesn’t get the benefit of rest and plays all these years through. In 00-01 Mario rejuvenated that team but in games after Mario returned Jagr outscored him and even amidst the magic looked better to my eye.

Jagr at his peak was better than Crosby at his to me. I saw it and was there for both. I still think McDavid is better than Jagr but people underrate this guy so badly around here in general. His 127 in 81 in 1998-99 would be worth close to 150 now even though adjusting is really stupid by G/GP. McDavid’s 2021 and 2023 are both better but I’m highlighting how good Jagr was. Jagr had a stretch of 82 straight games from Jan 9 1999 to Jan 2 2000 of 62 G, 84 A, 146 PTS in the dead puck era. Crosby was never capable of doing that. McDavid’s stretch of 2 points per game of 84 games (64 G, 103 A, 167 P) from Apr 20 2022 to Mar 3 2023 is still better especially in a better league but my point is that a 32-34 year old Lemieux that in real life retired is not better than peak Jagr or peak McDavid.

I will say this. In the way that you are framing the question the answer is yes that McDavid is on another level you aren’t wrong but if we are just talking peak then Jagr (while still worse) is close and in my mind better than Crosby. This is also coming from someone who saw all of it.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Once again two things can be true at the same time. Yes McDavid in my mind is better than Jagr was but Jagr in his prime from a level of play standpoint was indeed comparable to McDavid and better than what Crosby was able to show offensively for sure. To me Jagr was the best player in the world from 1997-98 to 2001. At least the best skater.

Also Mario or no Mario, Jagr would have been the best player in the league from 98-99 to 00-01 regardless. In the two years leading up to Mario’s retirement in 1997 Jagr was entering his peak and Mario was exiting his prime altogether. 1995-96 Mario was still clearly the better player but people forget that Jagr outscored him at even strength for points and points per game. The first half of ‘96 inflated everyone’s totals and Mario’s powerplay prowess allowed a substantial gap to be formed but in the second half of that season Mario’s pace went down to 147 and Jagr’s to 130. In 1996-97 their 82 game paces were 132 to 124 in Mario’s favor with Jagr scoring more goals per game and leading the NHL. The gap had closed by the end of 1996-97. Mario himself even said that Jagr was the best player in the world (wish I could find the quote). It wasn’t just because Mario retired. A 32-34 year old Mario would in my mind be worse than a 25-27 year old Jagr in ‘98-‘00

I believe Lemieux may have been able to hold on as an equal in 97-98 but once 98-99 rolls around Jagr at his peak would have been clearly better than a 33 year old Mario who doesn’t get the benefit of rest and plays all these years through. In 00-01 Mario rejuvenated that team but in games after Mario returned Jagr outscored him and even amidst the magic looked better to my eye.

Jagr at his peak was better than Crosby at his to me. I saw it and was there for both. I still think McDavid is better than Jagr but people underrate this guy so badly around here in general. His 127 in 81 in 1998-99 would be worth close to 150 now even though adjusting is really stupid by G/GP. McDavid’s 2021 and 2023 are both better but I’m highlighting how good Jagr was. Jagr had a stretch of 82 straight games from Jan 9 1999 to Jan 2 2000 of 62 G, 84 A, 146 PTS in the dead puck era. Crosby was never capable of doing that. McDavid’s stretch of 2 points per game of 84 games (64 G, 103 A, 167 P) from Apr 20 2022 to Mar 3 2023 is still better especially in a better league but my point is that a 32-34 year old Lemieux that in real life retired is not better than peak Jagr or peak McDavid.

I will say this. In the way that you are framing the question the answer is yes that McDavid is on another level you aren’t wrong but if we are just talking peak then Jagr (while still worse) is close and in my mind better than Crosby. This is also coming from someone who saw all of it.

Crosby had a streak of 55 goals, 104 assists and a plus-minus of +61 in 99 games between the 2010-11 and 2012-13 seasons for 159p in a similar era as the dead puck. The small gap between Jagr and Crosby at their peak is pretty much squashed by everything else Crosby does on the ice.

I feel like you’re getting caught up in Jagr’s magnetic personality. He wasn’t a team first player, and was very much about getting his stats at the cost of any system or teammate. He doesn’t impact winning in the playoffs to the degree Crosby has proven either.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I used chatgpt to generate a quick list from both. I guess it was inaccurate. Odd because if you ask it individual questions, it gets the answers correctly.
View attachment 799304

I really don't give a shit as the main point was Conor is woefully behind Crosby on personal awards.

You cant be bothered to verify your own arguments on a messageboard? Guess we know where to file your opinion. Never seen that before.

 

[crowfish]

Well 2016 McDavid is coming off a rookie season where he gets injured and loses the Calder, while Crosby led the penguins to a cup and snagged the Smythe. 2017 Crosby finishes the regular season a hair behind McDavid, being second in points, 1st in goals, and 2nd in Hart voting. However, he finishes the season with back to back cups and another Smythe while McDavid is coming off a lackluster performance to the ducks.

It’s not until 2018 does McDavid start to feel like the best player in the league. However those first couple years are touch and go where he has to prove himself over Kucherov’s 2019 campaign and drai’s 2020 campaign where they both looked just as good or better than McDavid.

2020 and on feels like when McDavid becomes undisputed. Just one man’s opinion of course. Cheers.

He won the MVP and led the league in pts/game, he was the best player in the world in 2016. The Penguins being a good team at that time doesn't change that fact. Kucherov and Draisatl were never better than him, they just had hot seasons were they put up better stats. The same way H.Sedin wasn't better than Crosby in 09.

I used chatgpt to generate a quick list from both. I guess it was inaccurate. Odd because if you ask it individual questions, it gets the answers correctly.
View attachment 799304

I really don't give a shit as the main point was Conor is woefully behind Crosby on personal awards.

"woefully" behind Crosby in personal awards. Quick reality check:

McDavid (26 years old)
Hart x3
Pearson x4
Ross x5
Rocket x1

13 won in 8 seasons

Crosby (36 years old)
Hart x2
Pearson x3
Ross x2
Rocket x2

11 won in 18 seasons

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He won the MVP and led the league in pts/game, he was the best player in the world in 2016. The Penguins being a good team at that time doesn't change that fact. Kucherov and Draisatl were never better than him, they just had hot seasons were they put up better stats. The same way H.Sedin wasn't better than Crosby in 09.

He lost the Calder in 2015-16, barely playing any games. 2016-2017, he barely outperformed Crosby, who had just played a ton of games and had a slow start. When the playoffs came around, McDavid didn’t perform well against the ducks and Crosby wins the Conn Smythe. Not exactly an H.Sedin type argument being formed here.

"woefully" behind Crosby in personal awards. Quick reality check:

McDavid (26 years old)
Hart x3
Pearson x4
Ross x5
Rocket x1

13 won in 8 seasons

Crosby (36 years old)
Hart x2
Pearson x3
Ross x2
Rocket x2

11 won in 18 seasons

Don’t be like that, you know the Conn Smythe is a factor.

 

[WalterLundy]

Crosby had a streak of 55 goals, 104 assists and a plus-minus of +61 in 99 games between the 2010-11 and 2012-13 seasons for 159p in a similar era as the dead puck. The small gap between Jagr and Crosby at their peak is pretty much squashed by everything else Crosby does on the ice.

I feel like you’re getting caught up in Jagr’s magnetic personality. He wasn’t a team first player, and was very much about getting his stats at the cost of any system or teammate. He doesn’t impact winning in the playoffs to the degree Crosby has proven either.

I was talking strictly offensively for Jagr vs Crosby at peak. Jagr is better there but sure if I was drafting a team I’d choose Crosby as he became (not always was) an all around great player as his career went on and won championships as a great captain. Finishing top 10 in Selke voting every year from 15-16 to 18-19 tells me that he became great all around even as his offense dropped off from 2007 to 2014 levels. And that’s without even using the eye test.

Jagr’s best stretch (that I outlined in my previous post) in todays environment would be worth 73 G, 99 A, 172 PTS in 82 consecutive games. If we are using G/GP that is. Crosby’s 2010-11 to 2012-13 would be worth 63 G, 119 A, 182 PTS in 99 games. 17 games to score 10 extra points. In 82 games that becomes 52 G, 99 A, 151 PTS today. To me 21 points and 21 goals is significant separation for an 82 game peak comparison.

Without Jagr beating New Jersey on one leg, my stretch of going to Pens games from 1978 to then would have ended. I’d have no attachment to Crosby if that never took place so I thank Jagr for that. He also has very good playoff numbers. From 1994-95 to 2000-01 (his prime) he had 95 points in 77 playoff games for the penguins. Crosby was a good playoff performer (164 in 148 from 07 to 17) and I’d probably say better but he also never was the team leader in points for any of the 3 cup wins. He also won a Conn Smythe with 19 points in 24 games as a -2. Crosby’s Conn Smythes are weak relatively when considering the caliber of player he is even if he was a deserving candidate. If Crosby was on the late 90s penguins in Jagr’s place his resume is different than it is now.

With that all being said McDavid is better than both. Gretzky, Lemieux and McDavid are the top 3 in that order since I’ve starting watching and it’s clear cut.

 

[crowfish]

He lost the Calder in 2015-16, barely playing any games. 2016-2017, he barely outperformed Crosby, who had just played a ton of games and had a slow start. When the playoffs came around, McDavid didn’t perform well against the ducks and Crosby wins the Conn Smythe. Not exactly an H.Sedin type argument being formed here.

Don’t be like that, you know the Conn Smythe is a factor.

Was does his losing the Calder have to do with 2016? He was 3rd in the league in pts/game his rookie season. In 2016 he won the MVP and was the only 100-point player with nobody else hitting 90 pts. At that time would I have said he was better than Crosby? No, but in hindsight it was clearly the start of his reign as the best player. The fact that the Penguins happened to be Cup contenders at that time isn't relevant to who the best player was.

The Conn Smythe is not a purely personal award. It requires a great team to have a chance at winning. I compared the awards that every player has a fair chance at winning. The point is to compare Crosby vs McDavid, not Penguins vs Oilers.