Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Gary Nylund]

4 x 4mill guys? 4mill barely buys you 3rd liners and bottom pairing D men theses days. More likely you’re looking at 2 x 7-8mill guys who are generally flawed 1st liners or good 2nd liners.

How much is a ~40 point forward worth? I ask because that's what Marner turns into after 86 games.

 

[ToneDog]

The problem with Marner isn't his play but his attitude.

Fans can handle a winner with a bad attitude. And they'll tolerate a loser with a good attitude. What they won't put up with is a loser with a bad attitude.

That's Marner.

If he was just a little smarter he would realize nobody would care how many points he got. Nobody would care how much money he earned. Nobody would even care if he ever won the cup.

Nobody would care about these things if he wasn't such a snivelling snotty sucky baby.

The Quinn and Burns era teams are STILL adored by the greatest fan base in the world. Even though none of them ever won a cup or much by way of individual awards. But because they played for the crest on the front of the jersey instead of the name on the back.

The only thing Marner plays for is a bigger paycheque.

This is why I say Ferris is doing him a disservice by making him look greedy again. Rather let him walk for nothing than let them bend the team over again. We saw last night the team if fine without him and with the right additions using his cap space, it could put them over the top.

Not winning with Marner, Holmberg, Robertson, Patches, Reaves in your lineup. Add 2 or three solid $4-$5m players who can play Berube hockey and you will have depth and be more difficult to contain and play against.

 

[francis246]

To me, at least half of his points are empty calories. He is great on PK and a lot of defensive work, which a 2.5 mil player can do. My problem with him is that he is holds on to the puck way too much, he is trying to set up plays that are not there, he skates himself into corners, because he loses the real estate, they just box him out. He loses the puck so much because of boneheaded passes into god knows where. Yes, he does do some spectacular plays. But everything in between them is largely insignificant. I am much rather have another Knies than Marner.

It's like the Rudy Gay trade for Raptors. They traded him away thinking of a rebuild, but it actually made the team better

I don’t disagree but for the 100th time. Where are we getting that other Knies from? We don’t have assets to trade to grab one. There is no Knies type player coming from UFA this year. So is Knies 2.0 just magically supposed to appear?

That’s the other part a lot of leaf fans are choosing to ignore. I’m actually starting to lean towards maybe having the cap space is better, I still love Marner as a player but it’s time for something different. But the other part is just because you have cap space it doesn’t mean you are going to utilize it well or even find those players you speak of. That’s the part that terrifies the shit out of me for this team. One part of me wants to see them utilize the cap space the other part doesn’t believe they will get the right players and then we are trapped with 2 or 3 horrible contracts.

If people are committed to moving on from Marner you have to at least acknowledge the true possibility we may never replace the positive things he brings to the team. If they can get Cozens this deadline I’ll be more open to them moving off Marner/letting him walk

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

This is why I say Ferris is doing him a disservice by making him look greedy again. Rather let him walk for nothing than let them bend the team over again. We saw last night the team if fine without him and with the right additions using his cap space, it could put them over the top.

Not winning with Marner, Holmberg, Robertson, Patches, Reaves in your lineup. Add 2 or three solid $4-$5m players who can play Berube hockey and you will have depth and be more difficult to contain and play against.

Look how good Necas is doing in Colorado.

He was supposed to be a downgrade on Rantanen. Early returns look like the Avs got the better of that deal. A fine replacement plus the added depth make them a better team overall than what they were before with Rantanen alone.

The Leafs might not win the cup without Marner but they sure as hell aren't winning it with him either.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If people are committed to moving on from Marner you have to at least acknowledge the true possibility we may never replace the positive things he brings to the team. If they can get Cozens this deadline I’ll be more open to them moving off Marner/letting him walk

He bring so little value after 86 games, it's not like we're losing anything that valuable. You have to at least acknowledge the true possibility (more accurate to say probability at this point) that the status quo that has failed miserably for 8 years, will not magically start to work.

There are no guarantees either way, there never are. If we move on from Marner we may never have playoff success but considering how little playoff success we've had with Marner, how much of a risk can you realistically say we'd be taking anyway?

IMO it's important to understand that we're not talking about breaking up some sort of dynasty here. This team is a consistent playoff loser so making a major change is the logical thing to do.

See the post below. Can you say with any degree of certainty that he's wrong?

The Leafs might not win the cup without Marner but they sure as hell aren't winning it with him either.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Look how good Necas is doing in Colorado.

He's below PPG and -4, for the record.

Early returns look like the Avs got the better of that deal. A fine replacement plus the added depth make them a better team overall than what they were before with Rantanen alone.

Colorado is 3-3 since the trade.

 

[thewave]

He's below PPG and -4, for the record.

Colorado is 3-3 since the trade.

It's been 6 games. He has 5pts. I would be more concerned that he is not scoring enough goals. 1g 4a but again 6games.

Major adjustment to the core .500 hockey isn't expected? Rantanen is a better player obviously but it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

 

[DarkKnight]

There is no denying he is a highly skilled player, but for me the question becomes, can you win with your 3rd best player making $13+m? After 8 years of the same stale rerun, IMO no. If one of Marner or Willie was a top 1/2C or a Makar, maybe it has a better chance of working. Two soft wingers @ $25m is overkill.

Sometimes too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

3rd best player? This isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't take him after Matthews, so the premise is flawed. We can easily afford him

 

[Gallagbi]

If you believe Leaf fans have it tough, try being a Cowboy fan.

60 mil per year for Dak to lose every playoff game.

You mean their highly paid talent loses in their winner take all elimination game each year? Couldn't imagine

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's been 6 games. He has 5pts. I would be more concerned that he is not scoring enough goals. 1g 4a but again 6games.

Major adjustment to the core .500 hockey isn't expected? Rantanen is a better player obviously but it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

I wouldn't say 0.500 hockey was expected. It's been a small sample and you can't really draw conclusions yet, but that doesn't change that the conclusions the individual I replied to drew about the early returns for Colorado are completely wrong.

 

[Gary Nylund]

3rd best player? This isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't take him after Matthews, so the premise is flawed. We can easily afford him

Thinking you speak for all the GM's in the NHL is the flawed premise.

 

[PromisedLand]

Off the top its profit vs pay, not revenues that ultimately drive the bus. If for sports talk simplicity we assume profits are pegged to revenues, I suspect the answer is that the union representing the players brought parity to the pay structure through 2005 negotiations.

The chart Confucius posted shows that there are no warranted grievances here on the whole. NHL pays out more per revenue to the players than the NFL and is in line with other professional sports. Superstar pay is driven by market dynamics, including player representation.

Perhaps there's an argument to be made that superstars aren't paid commensurate with the revenues they generate, but that would have to be taken up with their union. It's a team sport more than others, so how much are revenues tied to superstars vs winning? I don't know, but the Leafs make their money superstars or not.

Unless it changed recently (I haven’t kept up) the amount dedicated towards cap was essential based on HRR. What constitutes HRR I am not sure.

Like me buying beer at the game does that count as HRR? or is it purely inflated margins for MLSE?

 

[ToneDog]

3rd best player? This isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't take him after Matthews, so the premise is flawed. We can easily afford him

When Willie decides to play like last night, I'll take him over Marner if I had to choose. Sure we can afford Marner, but we cannot win with these 3 making that kind of money. Proof for me is 8 years of playoff failure.

 

[thewave]

When Willie decides to play like last night, I'll take him over Marner if I had to choose. Sure we can afford Marner, but we cannot win with these 3 making that kind of money. Proof for me is 8 years of playoff failure.

Can you or anyone remind me of a clutch moment Marner has come through on? I can't really remember any

 

[Gary Nylund]

Can you or anyone remind me of a clutch moment Marner has come through on? I can't really remember any

I remember him blocking a shot against Boston in the playoffs. Not sure which century that was, but he did it. The game was almost over, and it was a shot from the blueline so sure we probably win the game without it but still, it's something.

 

[ToneDog]

Can you or anyone remind me of a clutch moment Marner has come through on? I can't really remember any

I'll leave that to the experts to answer.

 

[ToneDog]

Seravelli on Bunkis yesterday thinks not likely Marner gets less than Matthews with the rising cap. Says no discount. Who wants to drive him to the airport?

 

[Aashir]

Seravelli on Bunkis yesterday thinks not likely Marner gets less than Matthews with the rising cap. Says no discount. Who wants to drive him to the airport?

To be fair

Where was the discount from 34?
Where was the discount from 88?

44 gave a discount and then he became ass and everyone hates him now.

I don’t blame him for asking for the max he can, it’s the culture that’s been established by our guys from the RFA days.

 

[ToneDog]

To be fair

Where was the discount from 34?
Where was the discount from 88?

44 gave a discount and then he became ass and everyone hates him now.

I don’t blame him for asking for the max he can, it’s the culture that’s been established by our guys from the RFA days.

How can you ask for every penny after you have been ass for the 5 playoff series after you took the Leafs to the woodshed the last time? Fans will crucify him if he gets more than Matthews and is ass in the playoffs again.

Willie outperformed his contract the last 4 years of his contract. Matty has won hardware. Marner has a Molson Cup and a few expected Selkes.

 

[darrylsittler27]

So nice to not have a game full of globetrotter on ice hockey plays. If Matthews were out it would be proof of more wins without. Dare I do the same and start the counter?

Is that the core 3 can't coexist? Is it Matthews? Mitch? Willy Rocket?

We need a stud dman.

 

[Aashir]

How can you ask for every penny after you have been ass for the 5 playoff series after you took the Leafs to the woodshed the last time?

Willie outperformed his contract the last 4 years of his contract. Matty has won hardware. Marner has a Molson Cup and a few expected Selkes.

I’m not a Marner fan but I find your argument a bit insincere

Why is Marner criticized only for the playoffs but Matthews is hailed for his regular seasons. Nylander got overpaid too, but it was just a normal 8 year UFA overpayment, similar to what Marner will have

Matthews has been a dud in the past 5 playoff series’s too and don’t give me the bs injury excuse as his wrist gets hurt every year on game 83.

They’ve both been mediocre playoff players and great regular season players. Matthews has the grossest contract in the league and Marner will just have an overpaid contract.

I don’t want that, but if it comes to it I won’t just be mad/disappointed in 16, it’ll be all 3 of them who were after every penny.

 

[ToneDog]

I’m not a Marner fan but I find your argument a bit insincere

Why is Marner criticized only for the playoffs but Matthews is hailed for his regular seasons. Nylander got overpaid too, but it was just a normal 8 year UFA overpayment, similar to what Marner will have

Matthews has been a dud in the past 5 playoff series’s too and don’t give me the bs injury excuse as his wrist gets hurt every year on game 83.

They’ve both been mediocre playoff players and great regular season players. Matthews has the grossest contract in the league and Marner will just have an overpaid contract.

34 has a hallway pass. He also is a goal scorer and has won major trophies. Nylander's production has not dropped much in the playoffs and he scores goals. Marner plays afraid in the playoffs, his numbers drop like a rock the deeper in the series and he plays further away from the net in the playoffs. Then you have puck over the glass, crying in the penalty box, whining to refs, hissy fit on the bench, turnovers leading to huge goals. etc. The bad taste he left after his last contract negotiations did him no favours.

 

[ToneDog]

Seravelli on Bunkis yesterday thinks not likely Marner gets less than Matthews with the rising cap. Says no discount. Who wants to drive him to the airport?

Mirtle thinks the same today and again said deal would have been done if he took $12.8m-$13m. Also mentioned that Marner is a winger and not a C.

Was thinking, is there a rule that says you have to spend to the cap?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Mirtle thinks the same today and again said deal would have been done if he took $12.8m-$13m. Also mentioned that Marner is a winger and not a C.

Was thinking, is there a rule that says you have to spend to the cap?

It's an "internal" rule.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Mitch Marner in fancy fashion is trying to force the game through him to maximize points totals and contract. It doesn't matter how many times he does things that result in loss of possession etc. He does not care if he hangs out at the blue line or the perimeter. The guy is a gamer in the sense that he knows how to pad stats. The problem isn't Matthews having a bad year. Its also Marners quest for the big pay day is leading to less opportunity for Matthews, especially the miserable PP.

Maybe that's why he leads the team in giveaways this year?

Edit - not this year in particular - going back to the 19-20 season he has led all regular forwards (and usually D as well) in giveaways/60 for 5 of the 6 seasons.