Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[keonsbitterness]

if the ball bounced slightly differently off the rim, it probably goes down as one of the worst deals in Raptors history, and we would have just faded into irrelevance with nothing to show for it.

If the ball bounced differently, the game would have gone into overtime.

Nobody is forcing GMs to hand them out like candy on Halloween and believe it or not, some players with NMC have waived and were subsequently traded. Hell it just happened a few days ago.

The market is forcing GMs to hand out NMCs to stars. Those that waive are usually due to unique circumstances. JT Miller was feuding with an entire city, but even then he would only waive for one team.

Tre could have traded anyone of the core outside JT after he arrived.

No he couldn't. Shanahan called the core right after Dubas was fired and told them they wouldn't be traded.

 

[PromisedLand]

Instructive as well, easily understood that Marner will garner big money interest in free agency, with this cap leaving teams awash in cash. This narrative here he won't is nonsense, especially now. Also, good luck not making massive over payments this summer, GM's have their money to play with.

I still think it smart to sign just below Matthews money, optics wise. Practically, an eight year deal slightly above Matthew's 4 year cash grab isn't that egregious.

I would rather not commit to Marner without seeing how he performs in the playoffs. I've written at length that Marner is certainly one of the main culprits why Leafs go down in goals and are incapable of putting up meaningful goals.

I wouldn't mind some other team paying marner the premium. I'd rather invest money in some other meaningful way for the team. Its been 7+ years since the "rebuild" its time to make some tough and more importantly calculated decisions!

 

[Gabriel426]

Like I said it’s relative to their counter parts. They are definitely under paid. And there’s a reason players have been pushing for higher salaries. There’s no reason why the NHL’s best player shouldn’t be able to command more.

If you actually do research this is what The owners wanted the whole time. It’s the whole reason why they locked out in 2005. They wanted a restrictive cap to control player salaries. I get we are all trained to look at things from a team first point of view. But players prior to 2005 were making $10 million. Almost 20 years later they are making the same salaries. That really has nothing to do with revenue. The revenue has been there for the NHL. That’s why we are seeing such drastic increases now because they are 20 years behind, instead of scaling appropriately every year since 2005. The older players in the league are also to blame, it’s why so many players regret 2005, they just wanted to play, they didn’t understand what they were agreeing to.

Completely understand some teams were going bankcrupt in 2005 as well. But there still could have been a better sliding scale.

This video explains it better.

My point is how much money the league is making vs how much players make.

NBA players can get 60mil a season bc the league can afford it. I think the CBA in NBA is around 50% of revenue. Think that’s the same in NHL. The % is the same but the numbers are different bc NHL got more players per team plus the NHL revenue is just not as high.

For example, NBA teams might make 300mil on average, 50% of that is 150mil, which means their salary cap is 150mil. Where as NHL teams might be at 200mil, and 50% of that is 100mil.

I am not going to get into details breakdown and stuff bc that’s not my point.

My point is you can’t have money that is not there. McD compare to say Messi, Jokic, Mahomes, Othani is underpaid as the top dog in their sports. But that had nothing to do with ownership being Cheap and had everything to do with Hockey just not as big a sale as Football, Euro Football, Basketball and Baseball.

If your point is McD and other top players should receive the max contract in NHL….thats another story and I think as long as teams willing to pay for them, who cares.
Lastly, when McD signs his deal, he became the highest paid player and it is close to
25% more than the last highest contract in the league. Don’t think he took any discounts.

 

[DarkKnight]

I would rather not commit to Marner without seeing how he performs in the playoffs. I've written at length that Marner is certainly one of the main culprits why Leafs go down in goals and are incapable of putting up meaningful goals.

I wouldn't mind some other team paying marner the premium. I'd rather invest money in some other meaningful way for the team. Its been 7+ years since the "rebuild" its time to make some tough and more importantly calculated decisions!

Sure, but we can only do that through free agency, the cupboard is non existent. So you're going to over pay for whatever is available, which won't be much given the room teams now have. The metrics have changed, if anything this rising cap makes Marner even more attractive to resign. The big three is entirely doable with this cap, we need to update how we view these salaries, we can fill it out nicely with this cap. We are living and dying with this core, I don't see splitting it up now. I get why people do, but I remain hopefully, and frankly replacing him with a couple over priced mid range talents feels like a net negative.

 

[PromisedLand]

Sure, but we can only do that through free agency, the cupboard is non existent. So you're going to over pay for whatever is available, which won't be much given the room teams now have. The metrics have changed, if anything this rising cap makes Marner even more attractive to resign. The big three is entirely doable with this cap, we need to update how we view these salaries, we can fill it out nicely with this cap. We are living and dying with this core, I don't see splitting it up now. I get why people do, but I remain hopefully, and frankly replacing him with a couple over priced mid range talents feels like a net negative.

It depends how one approaches the issue IMO.

Would Minten+Robertson+3rd get you ROR? If yes you do that and then go from there.

Here is just one scenario:

Knies-Matthews-Domi
McMann-ROR-Nylander
XXX/Cowan-Tavares/XXX(?)-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

Rielly-YYY
McCabe-Tanev
XXX-XXX

Woll
Stolarz


XXX are your depth pieces better than what we have now and YYY is another top4 D-man

Spread out the offense and make team truly deep and difficult to play against!

Then with cap flexibility we can use that at the TDL where we don't have to add more picks for other team(s) to retain.

IMHO there is absolutely no reason to run 3 forwards at 11+ AAV after this season especially if the same players haven't provided any playoff success

 

[DarkKnight]

It depends how one approaches the issue IMO.

Would Minten+Robertson+3rd get you ROR? If yes you do that and then go from there.

Here is just one scenario:

Knies-Matthews-Domi
McMann-ROR-Nylander
XXX/Cowan-Tavares/XXX(?)-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

Rielly-YYY
McCabe-Tanev
XXX-XXX

Woll
Stolarz


XXX are your depth pieces better than what we have now and YYY is another top4 D-man

Spread out the offense and make team truly deep and difficult to play against!

Then with cap flexibility we can use that at the TDL where we don't have to add more picks for other team(s) to retain.

IMHO there is absolutely no reason to run 3 forwards at 11+ AAV after this season especially if the same players haven't provided any playoff success

I'd hope ROR would cost a lot less than that!

 

[PromisedLand]

I'd hope ROR would cost a lot less than that!

I meant ROR+ from Preds

 

[DarkKnight]

I meant ROR+ from Preds

Ahh okay!

.

 

[francis246]

My point is how much money the league is making vs how much players make.

NBA players can get 60mil a season bc the league can afford it. I think the CBA in NBA is around 50% of revenue. Think that’s the same in NHL. The % is the same but the numbers are different bc NHL got more players per team plus the NHL revenue is just not as high.

For example, NBA team might make 300mil on average, 50% of that is 150mil, which means their salary cap is 150mil. Where as NHL team might be at 200mil, and 50% of that is 100mil.

I am not going to get into details breakdown and stuff bc that’s not my point.

My point is you can’t have money that is not there. McD compare to say Messi, Jokic, Mahomes, Othani is underpaid as the top dog in their sports. But that had nothing to do with ownership being Cheap and had everything to do with Hockey just not as big a sale as Football, Euro Football, Basketball and Baseball.

If your point is McD and other top players should receive the max contract in NHL….thats another story and I think as long as teams willing to pay for them, who cares.
Lastly, when McD signs his deal, he became the highest paid player and it is close to
25% more than the last highest contract in the league. Don’t think he took any discounts.

I understand what you’re saying but that’s completely different than what I’m arguing. I’ve stayed my point a few times. It’s not about MacDavo making the same amount as those stars. It’s about MacDavo and other stars making more money on a sliding scale aligned to the NHL revenue growth and profits. That has nothing to do with other leagues.

There’s two questions that can be asked to determine if my position is valid.

1. Do you believe the NHL has seen significant growth in terms of revenue from 1990 to 2025?( not in comparison to other major leagues but just as its own entity has there been growth) If the answer is yes, answer question #2.

2. If you are in agreement that the NHL has made money / seen a significant growth as its own entity in the last 30 years. Why are star players now, still making around the same as what star players made back in 1990? (I reference a few players and their salaries from the 90’s a few posts ago). Not one person has answered why that is, again that has nothing to do with the NBA/NFL. The NHL was/is still making a ton of money and revenue. Just not a lot relative to the NBA, so if they are profitable and generating revenue why haven’t the players benefited from that at an appropriate rate during each cba since 1990? The cap being introduced in 2005 was purposely designed to stagnant salary growth and create competitive balance between sharks and the smaller market budget teams.