Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[HFpapi]

The title says 2nd best player, not 2nd best carreer. Number of game played or career points is just meaningless . Mario was better then McD at every age including prime and peak.

You're being pedantic about wording. We all know what all-time refers to otherwise Lindros is a top 10 player.

 

[HFpapi]

He’s not better then Mario. The dude came back after 3 years off, at 35, in the heart of the DPE, and scored at a 1.77 p/gp.

Maybe if he wins 3-4 cups and get 2000 points, but even then peak Lemieux > peak McD, no doubt in my mind, unless he touches another level.

Preciously. The amount of time Mario missed is why the door is open for McDavid to pass him. Nearly as good of a peak but can have a much more complete and decorated career.

Mario missing 3 years due to retirement and coming back the way he did adds to his legend and lore but it's not a positive in terms of career value. Playing those three seasons would have been more beneficial to his career value.

 

[Realgud]

The disrespect towards Howe in this thread is insane. Maybe people should go back and look at what he accomplished before putting him as the de facto #4 or even below Crosby? He had multiple seasons around 1.2 or even 1.3 PPG while no one else in the entire league was above a PPG, or just a PPG. He was above a PPG in 1700+ games while playing in a much lower scoring era, that's as "hard to wrap your head around" as most Gretzky's records are.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The disrespect towards Howe in this thread is insane. Maybe people should go back and look at what he accomplished before putting him as the de facto #4 or even below Crosby? He had multiple season around 1.2 or even 1.3 PPG while no one else in the entire league was above a PPG, or just a PPG. He was above a PPG in 1700+ games while playing in a much lower scoring era, that's as "hard to wrap your head around" as most Gretzky's records are.

Howe should really be the de facto #2.

 

[Realgud]

Howe should really be the de facto #2.

Maybe, but at least people should understand why it's a big 4, not a 1, 2, 3 and 4. All 4 of them have arguments to be #1. They were all that good.

 

[Dingo]

The disrespect towards Howe in this thread is insane. Maybe people should go back and look at what he accomplished before putting him as the de facto #4 or even below Crosby? He had multiple season around 1.2 or even 1.3 PPG while no one else in the entire league was above a PPG, or just a PPG. He was above a PPG in 1700+ games while playing in a much lower scoring era, that's as "hard to wrap your head around" as most Gretzky's records are.

not to mention he brought much more to the table than just offence. Much more than most of these other guys.

 

[cupface52]

He’s not passing Lemieux, so yes.

The vast majority put Howe above Lemieux, and McDavid, so far is projecting to finish above Howe.

After 8 years in the league, McDavid has won the Art Ross 5 times. He's been top 2 in scoring 7 years straight, while also being the top scoring Canadian player. After this season it's highly likely to be 6 Art Ross, and 8 straight years of being top 2 and the top Canadian. This, at minimum matches Howe's Peak, and it would be fair to say, surpasses his peak. Still a way to go to reach Howe's prime though, as that lasted 20 years. Taking into account that the NHL is a global league now, if McDavid can be a top 5 player for 15 years, he'll surpass Howe in both peak and Prime.

 

[HFpapi]

The vast majority put Howe above Lemieux, and McDavid, so far is projecting to finish above Howe.

After 8 years in the league, McDavid has won the Art Ross 5 times. He's been top 2 in scoring 7 years straight, while also being the top scoring Canadian player. After this season it's highly likely to be 6 Art Ross, and 8 straight years of being top 2 and the top Canadian. This, at minimum matches Howe's Peak, and it would be fair to say, surpasses his peak. Still a way to go to reach Howe's prime though, as that lasted 20 years. Taking into account that the NHL is a global league now, if McDavid can be a top 5 player for 15 years, he'll surpass Howe in both peak and Prime.

Exactly this.

I have nothing but reverence and respect for Howe, a true OG and trailblazing legend of the sport. However, people need to understand how absurdly niche ice hockey would have been in the 1920's & 30's (when you would've had to start playing as a child in order to be one of Howe's contemporaries in his prime) and how few people were ever exposed to the sport at that time.

We are talking about a time when Germany was still governed by the Weimar Republic and Herbert Hoover was president. I have Howe firmly and easily 4th in the big 4 and not only think it possible but actually inevitable that McDavid passes him.

Howe won 6 Art Ross in a 30 year career against exclusively Canadian competition. McDavid might win his 6th in his 9th season against a truly global talent pool.

 

[Fourier]

There definitely are, at this point in time there are A LOT more than 100. Examples of players who age well in real time do not disprove this whatsoever… Not sure what would make you think that. Every single decade in hockey there is a noticeable increase in skill level, I mean any elite player from the past 20 years is better than Gretzky was in the absolute sense. I honestly think it’s crazy that you believe this is not the case when there have been 40 years of evolution in hockey since Gretzky’s prime and hockey has improved more than any other sport, and all the footage available which easily shows the skill level of 80s players is nowhere close to today.

There is 0 objective evidence to support your claim. It's not true just because you say it is. In Gretzky's case it was far more than skill that set him apart. He had an incredible mind for the game. But he also has some very rare physical traits that augmented this including his peripheral vision and an extraordinary long-loop reflex arc.

Lets not just talk about Gretzky here. Would there be 200 defensemen who skate better than Paul Coffey and have better puck skills? Who are the players who shoot even 5% harder than Al Iafarate. Is it speed? Nate MacKinnon's top recorded game speed has been around 38.5 Km/hr. Bure was clocked at over 37km/hr which is pretty much in line with Kucherov who is in the top 8% for measured speed. Bedard's top speed was below Bure.

No one would deny that there have been generational improvements. But there is no evidence beyond your definitive assertion to conclude that the changes have been anywhere near so great as to justify your claim.

 

[Essenege]

McDavid is proving that his offensive peak is very. very close to Mario's. If you adjust for era McDavid is not far off at all. When you consider that Mario played less than 1000 games, I don't think it's at all crazy to say the door is open for McDavid to surpass him from an all-time stand point.

McDavid has already matched Lemieux in Hart trophies and has a great chance to tie him in Art Ross this season too despite being just 27 years old.

The marginal advantage Mario has in terms of peak and ability I don't think overcomes McDavid possibly winning 1-2 more MVP's and/or 2-3 more Art Ross trophies. This is speculative of course but if McDavid gets 2000+ points, 5+ Hart's and 8+ Art Ross (none of which is a given but none of which is outlandish either) idk how you say he can't pass Lemieux.

What? Mario has 3 of the 5 best era adjusted points total (on a ppg basis which is really the only valuable metric)

1996 183 in 82
1993 181 in 84
1989 174 in 80

Gretzky’s best is 176 in 80

For reference, 1996 season average 3.14 goals per team per game which is actually the exact average of the last 3 seasons…Mario paced for 189 points and 81 goals over 70 games (not a case of small sample size)

 

[goldnblack]

will be tough if it's zero cups

 

[Derailed75]

will be tough if it's zero cups

Without a doubt he is one of the top 5 and most talented players to ever play in the NHL. But without a cup he is not in the top 5.

 

[jigglysquishy]

However, people need to understand how absurdly niche ice hockey would have been in the 1920's & 30's (when you would've had to start playing as a child in order to be one of Howe's contemporaries in his prime) and how few people were ever exposed to the sport at that time.

Hockey stopped being niche in the 1890s.

By the 1920s it was by far the most popular sport in Canada and attracting ~100,000 paid attendees a week to pro games. Pro games in Montreal and Toronto regularly attracted 10,000 before Howe was born. By the WHL/NHL merger in 1926, it had become big business in the US too. It was getting to a point where attracting 5,000 paid attendees to a game was considered minor league.

Even outside Canada the sport was decently large. Pro hockey in the US predates Howe by 25 years. Olympic participation for hockey started in 1920. Major championships in European countries predate Howe. The IIHF was 20 years old when Howe was born.

Sports pages of the 1920s are filled with hockey. A farmer in rural Saskatchewan would know NHL players by name and would follow along with stats and standings 6 days a week. The sport was massive and ubiquitous throughout Canada. Hockey became the largest sport in Canada by the mid 1890s and was by far the largest sport in Canada by 1914.

Cyclone Taylor, who retired nearly a decade before Howe was born, spent his prime playing in front of larger crowds than Coyotes home games.

 

[HFpapi]

What? Mario has 3 of the 5 best era adjusted points total (on a ppg basis which is really the only valuable metric)

1996 183 in 82
1993 181 in 84
1989 174 in 80

Gretzky’s best is 176 in 80

For reference, 1996 season average 3.14 goals per team per game which is actually the exact average of the last 3 seasons…Mario paced for 189 points and 81 goals over 70 games (not a case of small sample size)

You're telling me McDavid isn't in the same ballpark as Lemieux offensively? This small difference can't be overcome by McDavid (due to health and not retiring for 3 years) winning 2-3 more Art Ross, 1-2 more Harts, and scoring 300-400 more points than 66?

 

[jigglysquishy]

If you're going to use a simple reductive GPG/GPG method expect to be mocked.

 

[HFpapi]

Hockey stopped being niche in the 1890s.

By the 1920s it was by far the most popular sport in Canada and attracting ~100,000 paid attendees a week to pro games. Pro games in Montreal and Toronto regularly attracted 10,000 before Howe was born. By the WHL/NHL merger in 1926, it had become big business in the US too. It was getting to a point where attracting 5,000 paid attendees to a game was considered minor league.

Even outside Canada the sport was decently large. Pro hockey in the US predates Howe by 25 years. Olympic participation for hockey started in 1920. Major championships in European countries predate Howe. The IIHF was 20 years old when Howe was born.

Sports pages of the 1920s are filled with hockey. A farmer in rural Saskatchewan would know NHL players by name and would follow along with stats and standings 6 days a week. The sport was massive and ubiquitous throughout Canada. Hockey became the largest sport in Canada by the mid 1890s and was by far the largest sport in Canada by 1914.

Cyclone Taylor, who retired nearly a decade before Howe was born, spent his prime playing in front of larger crowds than Coyotes home games.

EDIT: I won't delete the post, I can admit I'm wrong here. This is % that say hockey is their favourite sport not who call themselves fans. My main contention still stands however, ice hockey is a niche sport still today much less in the 1920's. Saying hockey wasn't niche back then because it drew a decent number of spectators in two cities globally is crazy.

Ice hockey is still niche today nevermind in the 1920's. 3% of American adults call themselves hockey fans. Outside of like 10 countries the sport doesn't even register.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Favorite Sport[/TH]
[TH]Percent of adults[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Football[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baseball[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Basketball[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Soccer[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ice hockey[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auto racing[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ice/Figure skating[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Montreal Shadow]

The vast majority put Howe above Lemieux, and McDavid, so far is projecting to finish above Howe.

After 8 years in the league, McDavid has won the Art Ross 5 times. He's been top 2 in scoring 7 years straight, while also being the top scoring Canadian player. After this season it's highly likely to be 6 Art Ross, and 8 straight years of being top 2 and the top Canadian. This, at minimum matches Howe's Peak, and it would be fair to say, surpasses his peak. Still a way to go to reach Howe's prime though, as that lasted 20 years. Taking into account that the NHL is a global league now, if McDavid can be a top 5 player for 15 years, he'll surpass Howe in both peak and Prime.

He'll have a better career than Lemieux because he'll have been healthier but Lemieux's career is only half the story. It's his sheer dominance relative to his peers that makes him so highly regarded. The guy beat out Gretzky for Art Ross trophies and blew out the competition to win scoring races despite missing 20-30% of some seasons.

The only McDavid season that remotely compares to Lemieux is 2021-22 where he won by 25% over second place. McDavid is much healthier and extremely consistent but he is clearly a step below Lemieux when it comes to crushing the competition. Only Howe, Gretzky, and Orr reached that level or higher.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Without a doubt he is one of the top 5 and most talented players to ever play in the NHL. But without a cup he is not in the top 5.

Such an interesting way of thinking.

I think Dominik hasek made his legacy during his years with the sabres, and had he not joined Detroit and won 2 cups behind powerhouse teams (one as a backup) he'd still be regarded as the most dominant goalie to ever play the game because of his 6 vezinas and 2 harts in that 8 season span.

I think the only people who would say hasek wasn't good enough to win a cup if he joined Toronto vs Detroit would be the people that have an agenda.

But you're entitled to your opinion

 

[Essenege]

You're being pedantic about wording. We all know what all-time refers to otherwise Lindros is a top 10 player.

I mean who cares that a player played 800 or 1600 games for determining the best to play the games. 5-10 years prime is much more revealing.

Lindros is an extreme case so tougher to rank. But I have Lafleur easily ahead of Messier for example.

 

[cupface52]

He'll have a better career than Lemieux because he'll have been healthier but Lemieux's career is only half the story. It's his sheer dominance relative to his peers that makes him so highly regarded. The guy beat out Gretzky for Art Ross trophies and blew out the competition to win scoring races despite missing 20-30% of some seasons.

The only McDavid season that remotely compares to Lemieux is 2021-22 where he won by 25% over second place. McDavid is much healthier and extremely consistent but he is clearly a step below Lemieux when it comes to crushing the competition. Only Howe, Gretzky, and Orr reached that level or higher.

Being able to stay healthy is just as important as talent.

Does McDavid match Lemieux's absolute peak, no. He is close enough though that maintaining his high level of play will place McDavid as the better player. As long as McDavid keeps it up for a few more years.

Howe never reached the level of Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux. If the level of dominance you're referring to is '52-'53 where he won the Art Ross by 33% over his Canadian contemporaries. McDavid in '21 won it over Canadians by 52% and in '23 by 38%.

 

[Voight]

The disrespect towards Howe in this thread is insane. Maybe people should go back and look at what he accomplished before putting him as the de facto #4 or even below Crosby? He had multiple season around 1.2 or even 1.3 PPG while no one else in the entire league was above a PPG, or just a PPG. He was above a PPG in 1700+ games while playing in a much lower scoring era, that's as "hard to wrap your head around" as most Gretzky's records are.

Mark Giordano is the oldest player in the league this year at 40.

When Howe was 40 he scored 103 points, was named to the 1st AST, 5th in goals, 3rd in assists and 3rd in points.

 

[Connor McConnor]

I doubt he ever passes Crosby on the list.

McDavid has two big minuses that although have nothing to do with him will likely hurt hi legacy when comepeting with the others.

1. If he sticks with Edmonton no chance to win a Cup let alone multiple Cups. While it might be unfair to hold up team achievements when judging individual players when you are talking about the GOAT's it will be a factor and every other top player has multiple wins so McDavid having none will hurt him. It will be interesting to see if he wins some late in his career after his prime is over and he leaves Edmonton how that might change but zero Cups in his prime won't help when it is such a close comparison.

2. No chance for international success. The Golden goal is a signature moment in Crosby's career, him leading Canada to one of the most dominant performances in Sochi helps him as well. Again this might not be fair and not everyone will say it matters but overall I think it affects people's view on players and McDavid is going to miss out on the chance to get that signature international moment- Gretzky to Lemiuex in 87 as well.

Even ignoring these I think it is way too early to think he will be number 2, that isn't a mark against him just an acknowledgement on how great the other players at the top are/were.

The golden goal where Crosby was arguably one of the most disappointing players on the team is a plus? Maybe for people who didn’t watch the Olympics. I find it hard to believe McDavid would be as bad as Sid was during those Olympics

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Being able to stay healthy is just as important as talent.

No, it isn’t. Otherwise people would argue the likes of Jagr or Messier are better than Lemieux.

Does McDavid match Lemieux's absolute peak, no. He is close enough though that maintaining his high level of play will place McDavid as the better player. As long as McDavid keeps it up for a few more years.

He is not close at all though. He’s clearly a step below in terms of dominance and has yet to match Lemieux’s playoffs success. He’s in an odd spot where he’s clearly a step above Crosby and the rest of the league in the regular season but not on Lemieux or Gretzky’s level. He’s been great in the playoffs but never touched the finals yet.

 

[Essenege]

View attachment 843472

You're telling me McDavid isn't in the same ballpark as Lemieux offensively? This small difference can't be overcome by McDavid (due to health and not retiring for 3 years) winning 2-3 more Art Ross, 1-2 more Harts, and scoring 300-400 more points than 66?

McDavid is impressive in his own right, but yeah in a season with the same scoring as current era Lemieux was goal per game and on pace for 189 (161 in 70) (that season is excluded from your data)

Sakic had 120 in 82gp, which is an insane gap. Actually the rest of the points leaderboard looks the same ballpark as this season.

I need to see another level from McD. If he can have 1-2 seasons 70+ goals 170+ points (pace) I’d reconsider.

Trophies and carreer number don’t matter much to me, prime is more important for selecting the best players.

I have McD before Howe already though. At #4. Still behind Orr.

 

[robertmac43]

will be tough if it's zero cups

Yup - winning is key in this equation.

If he doesn't win anything he will end in the 5-7 range.