Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Adam da bomb]

Orr, Lemieux, Howe, and Gretzky will not be unseated by anyone currently playing in the NHL. Recency bias is normal in sports, so I get the allure of saying McDavid is the 2nd best of all time.

Orr completely redefined an entire position and is the best all-around player I've ever watched. Lemieux is the most gifted offensive player in league history. It's hard to fathom what both players would have accomplished beyond what they did had they not have to deal with major injuries/health problems.

Howe is the second best all-around player ever. Gretzly is right behind Mario when it comes to offensive prowess.

McDavid is not anything special as an all-around player and he is not as good offensively as either Mario or Wayne. No way he will end up top-4 ever.

That's boring to believe that no player in the present or the future will ever be as good as players in the past

 

[Juxta Position]

Orr, Lemieux, Howe, and Gretzky will not be unseated by anyone currently playing in the NHL. Recency bias is normal in sports, so I get the allure of saying McDavid is the 2nd best of all time.

Orr completely redefined an entire position and is the best all-around player I've ever watched. Lemieux is the most gifted offensive player in league history. It's hard to fathom what both players would have accomplished beyond what they did had they not have to deal with major injuries/health problems.

Howe is the second best all-around player ever. Gretzly is right behind Mario when it comes to offensive prowess.

McDavid is not anything special as an all-around player and he is not as good offensively as either Mario or Wayne. No way he will end up top-4 ever.

Ya I wouldn't put Wham Gretzly ahead of Mario either, Wayne Gretzky I definitely would, but not Gretzly.

 

[PaulD]

Matter of opinion with a dash of speculation .

Of all time ..... holis best and most memorable moments and achievements are still ahead of him. And they come during play offs.
But still a fairly safe prediction.

Personally I don't think he gets padt 4th all time. Even when he has the Ring and Con Smythe.
Orr Gretz Mario own the top 3

 

[HighAndTight]

That's boring to believe that no player in the present or the future will ever be as good as players in the past

How is that your take away from what he wrote?

 

[Fatass]

Imo McDaved gets into the top five if he leads a club to the Cup. I value leading a club to a Cup very high in ranking the greatest players. If he doesn’t lead a club to the Cup then he’s not top ten for me. He falls into the next group with Bure and Dionne

 

[Foppberg]

Only a boomer would say this. Lemme guess, you think Cyclone Taylor had the silkiest hands of all time?

McDavid is obviously better than Howe in a vacuum i.e actual hockey ability to the point it's really not even fair to Howe to compare so let's leave that aside.

McDavid has a better than good chance to tie Howe for Art Ross and Hart trophies after only 9 seasons at the age of 27. Gordie did 6 scoring titles in 25 years against a league that never saw a single Russian, Swede, Czech, Fin, German, and barely any Americans either for that matter.

McDavid has three era-adjusted offensive seasons better than Howe's best.

On what basis can McDavid *NEVER* pass Howe?

I love that you think I’m a boomer. Damn maybe 27 is the new 67.

 

[Toby91ca]

Imo McDaved gets into the top five if he leads a club to the Cup. I value leading a club to a Cup very high in ranking the greatest players. If he doesn’t lead a club to the Cup then he’s not top ten for me. He falls into the next group with Bure and Dionne

Same group with Bure? Seriously?

 

[HFpapi]

I love that you think I’m a boomer. Damn maybe 27 is the new 67.

I don't know anything about you, I'm replying to your "only a child would think this" in kind.

 

[blundluntman]

As far as all-time rankings, I don't think he'll ever do enough to break the big 4 unless he's still scoring 100 points in his late 30s (37+) and plateaus at a very high level in the latter half of his career. Gretzky peaked way higher for much longer. Orr was a generational offensive talent while still being the 1st or 2nd best defensively in his position. Mario didn't have the longevity of Gretzky but was still his equal offensively and could still dominate in his old age. While I do have McDavid's peak a bit above Howe's , Howe's consistency and longevity are genuinely otherworldly as he was able to hit 100 points in his 40s. On top of his longevity/prime, he was also a multidimensional player due to his defensive play and physicality. As it is, my top 4 is: Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe but I also am in the camp of evaluating players based on their peak/prime so I don't have an issue with people ranking Howe higher than I have him. As far as peaks, I would say McDavid has a strong case for 4th all time in all honesty, but I don't see any argument whatsoever for him above those 3 so I doubt he'll ever be #2 in my book based on my criteria. As it is though, I'm pretty certain he'll finish as the undisputed #5. I'd be pretty interested to see if he can give Howe a run for his money though.

 

[Adam da bomb]

How is that your take away from what he wrote?

That he seemed pretty confident no one would be ever be as good as the big 4. Which is boring. You always hope that the best is yet to come.

 

[Toby91ca]

As far as all-time rankings, I don't think he'll ever do enough to break the big 4 unless he's still scoring 100 points in his late 30s (37+) and plateaus at a very high level in the latter half of his career. Gretzky peaked way higher for much longer. Orr was a generational offensive talent while still being the 1st or 2nd best defensively in his position. Mario didn't have the longevity of Gretzky but was still his equal offensively and could still dominate in his old age. While I do have McDavid's peak a bit above Howe's , Howe's consistency and longevity are genuinely otherworldly as he was able to hit 100 points in his 40s. On top of his longevity/prime, he was also a multidimensional player due to his defensive play and physicality. As it is, my top 4 is: Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe but I also am in the camp of evaluating players based on their peak/prime so I don't have an issue with people ranking Howe higher than I have him. As far as peaks, I would say McDavid has a strong case for 4th all time in all honesty, but I don't see any argument whatsoever for him above those 3 so I doubt he'll ever be #2 in my book based on my criteria. As it is though, I'm pretty certain he'll finish as the undisputed #5. I'd be pretty interested to see if he can give Howe a run for his money though.

By peak, do you mean 1 year or string of years? If one year, it's hard to beat Howe's year where he scored 34% higher than #2 in points and 53% higher than #2 in goals. Howe also did similar for a 4 year peak.....much different times of course though (6 team league).

That's boring to believe that no player in the present or the future will ever be as good as players in the past

I wouldn't go as far to suggest no player in the future will ever be as good as players in the past, but it's fair to assess the current group of players and conclude they will never finish higher than certain players in the past. At the same time, I do feel there is bias to players in the past, just the way it goes. People will always default to the player of the past as a bias if it's close (maybe not, perhaps that's a misconception)....thought is the current player has to be that much better to get over the bias.

 

[yeaher]

Jerry Rice and Micheal Irvin, Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton are thought to be ahead of Moss and Sanders because of rings!

No one in the world, not even Michael Irvin himself, thinks he is half the player of Randy Moss. The only reason Moss is #2, is because Rice isn't only the best WR ever, he is the best player of all time. Rice has GOAT status, along with Brady/Montana and LT.

 

[Video Nasty]

Guess people still haven’t realized that doubting McDavid has meant they’ve been wrong every step of the way over the past few years.

 

[Adam da bomb]

By peak, do you mean 1 year or string of years? If one year, it's hard to beat Howe's year where he scored 34% higher than #2 in points and 53% higher than #2 in goals. Howe also did similar for a 4 year peak.....much different times of course though (6 team league).


I wouldn't go as far to suggest no player in the future will ever be as good as players in the past, but it's fair to assess the current group of players and conclude they will never finish higher than certain players in the past. At the same time, I do feel there is bias to players in the past, just the way it goes. People will always default to the player of the past as a bias if it's close (maybe not, perhaps that's a misconception)....thought is the current player has to be that much better to get over the bias.

I wonder if it's even possible after all the game has changed quite a lot since the time of the legends. For instance, I think that the amount of time that the players were able to be on the ice as well as a switch to system base makes it harder for a player to separate themselves to the same degree. I know it's comparative to their peers. Also the team strength means no team will ever win as many cups as the old oilers, Islanders etc.

 

[blundluntman]

By peak, do you mean 1 year or string of years? If one year, it's hard to beat Howe's year where he scored 34% higher than #2 in points and 53% higher than #2 in goals. Howe also did similar for a 4 year peak.....much different times of course though (6 team league).

For me it's really just a tier of quality seasons (like Gretzky's 200 point seasons, Mario's 200-pace seasons, Orr's art ross/hart seasons, etc.). I do agree that Howe's peak is absolutely phenomenal but not quite in the same tier as the other 3 IMO. His level of separation in years like 53 was amazing, but his quality of competition wasn't quite as strong as the other 3's imo. In 53 for example, outside of his teammates, the only other HoFer at the top of the scoring race was Richard who was in his 30s (don't get me wrong, that season likely wins the the hart/ross against anybody outside the big 3, but not by the same level of separation if I had to guess). In the years preceding that like 52 and 51, he did go up against guys like Bentley, Kenneddy, Geoffrion, Lach, etc. but I still have him a tier below the other 3; I think McDavid's 20-21 and 22-23 seasons are just as good tbh. For Howe, I think it's a combination of a tier 2 peak, a tier 1 prime/career and just being an all around monster for 20+ years that bridges the gap for him against the otherworldly peaks of the other 3.

 

[nowhereman]

Imo McDaved gets into the top five if he leads a club to the Cup. I value leading a club to a Cup very high in ranking the greatest players. If he doesn’t lead a club to the Cup then he’s not top ten for me. He falls into the next group with Bure and Dionne

Cups are certainly a factor in a player's legacy but McDavid's trophy case will end up being too impressive to hold him back from a top 5-10 spot. Neither Dionne nor Bure are top 50 players, IMO, with Bure a stretch for the top 100. McDavid is miles ahead of them as a player and an inevitable lock for the top 5-10.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

That he seemed pretty confident no one would be ever be as good as the big 4. Which is boring. You always hope that the best is yet to come.

Yeah, I never said that. I said CURRENT player in the NHL. Nowhere did I outright say or even suggest what you are saying I said. Might want to reread my post.

 

[zar]

Cups are certainly a factor in a player's legacy but McDavid's trophy case will end up being too impressive to hold him back from a top 5-10 spot. Neither Dionne nor Bure are top 50 players, IMO, with Bure a stretch for the top 100. McDavid is miles ahead of them as a player and an inevitable lock for the top 5-10.

I agree that if McDavid doesn’t win a Cup, it would definitely tarnish his legacy.

I am one Oiler fan that hopes, if he can’t win one in Edmonton, he wins one elsewhere… he deserves it. Although, it would really suck seeing him raise a Cup in a different sweater… especially a specific few.

That being said, the expectations of these greats winning 3, 4+ Cups in order to have high placement in overall rankings is ridiculous. Hockey is the ultimate team sport. The NHL is a 30+ team league now. The chances of winning a Cup are greatly determined on fortune of being drafted onto a team in the right area of North America with competent management. A hard salary cap has significantly hindered dynasty type franchises. There are certain teams with significant geographical and/or financial advantages. There are teams that get away with, as some would call it, “massaging” the rules to their advantage. A small market &/or Canadian team has to be near perfect with almost every move they make to be successful in winning a Cup.

I hope McDavid wins a Cup and if he does, he will be in discussions with Mario and Bobby as the 2nd best player of all time. I’ve always ranked Howe as 4th of the Big Four.

 

[Craig Button]

3rd

Behind Gretzky and Lemieux

 

[Derailed75]

Guess people still haven’t realized that doubting McDavid has meant they’ve been wrong every step of the way over the past few years.

Unless you doubt his ability to win a cup, you know the whole reason 99% of guys play the sport.

 

[HFpapi]

As far as all-time rankings, I don't think he'll ever do enough to break the big 4

People who think this I believe are either severely underrating what McDavid is doing right now, are severely overrating players from the past due to the mythology that builds around them, or both.

Of course the Art Ross & Hart are still very much up in the air for this season but I think we can all agree there's a very good chance McDavid wins both. Humour me and assume so.

At age 27(!) in only his 9th NHL season he will have tied both Lemieux and Howe in scoring titles and tied Howe and surpassed Lemieux in MVP's. He will hit 1000 points very early (like first few games early) into next season. He still has likely 6-7 more years of being elite of the elite and 10 more years of being a productive top tier player.

Not only is Howe in reach I think it's almost inevitable he will have a better career than Howe.

Mario and Orr peaked higher although not by much tbh. Orr played only 650 games. McDavid being close enough in terms of peak but playing more than double the games would make it a real discussion.

Era adjusted, McDavid honestly isn't offensively that far off from 66 at all. If he can win 2-3 more Art Ross than Mario did and 1-2 more MVP's and 300-400 more points, you're saying there's still nothing to discuss?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

People who think this I believe are either severely underrating what McDavid is doing right now, are severely overrating players from the past due to the mythology that builds around them, or both.

Of course the Art Ross & Hart are still very much up in the air for this season but I think we can all agree there's a very good chance McDavid wins both. Humour me and assume so.

At age 27(!) in only his 9th NHL season he will have tied both Lemieux and Howe in scoring titles and tied Howe and surpassed Lemieux in MVP's. He will hit 1000 points very early (like first few games early) into next season. He still has likely 6-7 more years of being elite of the elite and 10 more years of being a productive top tier player.

Not only is Howe in reach I think it's almost inevitable he will have a better career than Howe.

Mario and Orr peaked higher although not by much tbh. Orr played only 650 games. McDavid being close enough in terms of peak but playing more than double the games would make it a real discussion.

Era adjusted, McDavid honestly isn't offensively that far off from 66 at all. If he can win 2-3 more Art Ross than Mario did and 1-2 more MVP's and 300-400 more points, you're saying there's still nothing to discuss?

Unless mack falls off a cliff he has the hart locked down. And howe has 6 harts. Mario was also winning all his rosses in dominating fashion fighting cancer n severe back problems. Beating prime gretzky by 31 points in 2 less games. Beating prime Jagr (a comparable level player to mcdavid) by 12 points in 12 less games. Winning a ross by 12 points with 24 less gp. Mario certainley wasent going into the final 3 weeks of the season battling for an art ross. Also mario had 2 smythes won in gretzky fashion by age 26.....

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Unless mack falls off a cliff he has the hart locked down.

The hart is absolutely not locked down.

 

[HFpapi]

Unless mack falls off a cliff he has the hart locked down. And howe has 6 harts

He's my favourite but if McDavid wins the Ross after clawing back from 22 points down and gets 105-110 assists I can see voters giving it to him.

I thought Howe had 4 Harts, I stand corrected.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The hart is absolutely not locked down.

Mack is winning it unless like i said he falls off a cliff. If mack can finish with at least 135-140 its his. The media are salivating at the thought. Also has many more goals than mcdavid which usually factors in voting