Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[blundluntman]

Show me a picture of his teammates and other teams players of that same era.

Tim Horton and Bobby Hull:

 

[LemonSauceD]

Show me yours first.

No you.

 

[thethirdhockeyman91]

no Tanner Glass is #2 right ow behind Gretzky.

 

[Enga Olly]

His individual trophies say otherwise.
But glad he had cups when the league only had 21 teams and 5 foot tall goalies.

Old dudes will never let go of their glory day players.

That's just the wrong take. Every athlete has to be judged by the standards of the day. The science of training, nutrition, the quality of the equipment all factor into an athletes performance - that's why trying to compare Howe to Gretzky to McDavid is stupid. They are men of their time and had their specific advantages and disadvantages. The McDavid/Bedard comparison will make sense because Bedard is starting his NHL Career 9 years into McDavid's career. McDavid has plenty of hockey left in him. McDavid played his 1st NHL game some 15 years after Gretzky played his last NHL game.

I hated Gretzky when he played because I'm a Leaf fan and was envious of Gretzky and the Oiler's success, but the dude dominated the league in a way that I really can't see McDavid ever dominating - I may be wrong, don't care really, I want McDavid to not succeed for the same reasons I didn't want Gretzky to succeed but it's not a matter of old dudes not letting go. Perspective young lad - you'll get it only after time elapses.

 

[Video Nasty]

Kinda silly that us old dudes have to defend all time legends but you'll understand in 8 years if Bedard his wiping the McDavid seasons off the books

Until he wins a cup, McDavid is Dan Marino

I hope that happens. It’s always a good thing when a player is so transcendent that he makes his predecessor look like a simpleton. Bedard being that great would be something else.

 

[Mike C]

Why would personality, mystique, and gumption matter over how one plays the sport?

The difference is that you’re presumably a fully grown adult now, maybe even a certified old head. You watched these guys or heard about them spoken of in hushed breaths in your formative years as a child. No current player can ever compete with someone who isn’t willing to put that aside. It’s similar to a majority of each generation hitting a certain age, moaning about how music isn’t good like it was in the old days, and stop listening to anything other than what they listened to when they were in their 20s or younger. It takes effort to not retreat into the familiar old comforts. It’s scary to venture forward into something new.

Is McDavid top 5 all-time eight seasons into his career? No, not quite yet. But it’s not going to be long before he’ll have the complete credentials to be considered so. I can’t say I’ll ever have him ranked above Gretzky, but if he plays a nice full 20 season career, he could very well have the ammunition to counter shortened careers like Orr and Lemieux, and be the modern day counterpart to Howe, in terms of constantly being in the Hart discussion, except that he’s doing it against a pool that is 5x larger.

I just deleted all my Stones, Zep, Tull, Bowie

Man that Post Malone and Dua Lipa sure can rock the house!

 

[mkatcherin00]

He will be top 5. Give him a cup and he shi** on Crosby, who is also a mount rushmore guy

 

[JFedol]

He will be top 5. Give him a cup and he shi** on Crosby, who is also a mount rushmore guy

Jagr>>>>Crosby for 5th place IMO.

 

[HFpapi]

I bump this thread periodically when I think it's relevant. It was a contentious but interesting thread in the past.

I wasn't going to bump it today to avoid making the front page a Connor McDavid fest, but I mean, come on.

The guy just keeps amazing us. Looked human to begin the year and many were quick to take their opportunities to s*** on him while they could. He recovered from injury and goes on a 37 point in 17 game run (2.17 points per game). He's 10 back of the league lead with 4 (team) games in hand.

On top of that, he became the 5th fastest in NHL history to score 900 points. 3rd fastest by adjusted points and the only player in the top 10 not to score basically all of his points in the 70's and 80's.

People can't still seriously believe this guy has zero shot to a) break up the "big 4" and b) possibly end up 2nd all-time when the dust settles.

Anyone changed their opinion given last seasons performance and his last 2 months this year?

People who are still adamant he can't finish better than 5th?

I think we are watching the SGOAT.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

View attachment 724399

There's a reason players today don't develop their upper bodies like this- it slows them down.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Crosby lost 3.5+ seasons at what is/was his peak and probably close to about 300 ish points which puts him in or around 2nd place. This is due to covid, lockout shortened season and Injuries

Mcdavid may break 1600+ points but has been remarkably healthy.

Jagr....bailed at one of his peaks at 110+ points per season and 30+ goals. Suffered a lockout shortened season in the 90s and a full lockout + another shortened in the 2000s or effectively 5.5+ seasons lost.

By this metric Jagr probably lost close to 100 or so goals and almost 450 points due to that. Which puts him over 2k points and close to 900 goals.

Id argue Jagr is the 2nd best player to have ever played the game by this metric.

 

[brentashton]

There's a reason players today don't develop their upper bodies like this- it slows them down.

Agreed. It’s a different game today than in the 1940s and 50s

Picture was simply a reference to the comment that players weren’t fit back then like they are today. For sure there were a lot of milk bags out there too, but not every player was a milk bag.

Interesting that the superstars of the game like Howe and Hull were absolute ripped rocks.

 

[Three On Zero]

Agreed. It’s a different game today than in the 1940s and 50s

Picture was simply a reference to the comment that players weren’t fit back then like they are today. For sure there were a lot of milk bags out there too, but not every player was a milk bag.

Interesting that the superstars of the game like Howe and Hull were absolute ripped rocks.

Only issue is being physically fit and having good conditioning for high intensity sports are two very different things. You can look completely ripped but not be able to do a 50 yard dash.

 

[brentashton]

Only issue is being physically fit and having good conditioning for high intensity sports are two very different things. You can look completely ripped but not be able to do a 50 yard dash.

Agreed like I said the game in the 1940/50s was vastly different even from a cardio perspective .

Again the fact that Hull and Howe were so dominating reinforces that strength was more determinant of success in the league back then.

Now today if a muscle bound player that lacked cardio intensity tried to play in this NHL I doubt they would be able.

 

[hockey20000]

the stats are nice but idc if he finishes in 2nd all time points if he doesnt have 2 cups let alone 1.. you can't put him down as the 2nd best player of all time lol

 

[Draino]

The stars of 20 and 30 years ago had to endure abuse that today's top players dont have to deal with. The clutching and grabbing that was allowed. The head hunting, cheap shots and goons gunning for the other teams top player in the 80s and 90s was at a different level than it is today. Even Crosby early on took head shots. Players today have rules and a culture that allows them to operate in a far safer environment.

That said, think Mario/Wayne will be top 2 unless someone comes along and not only challenges their point totals (translated from today to yesteryear that is) but wins as many cups as them.

 

[Three On Zero]

Agreed like I said the game in the 1940/50s was vastly different even from a cardio perspective .

Again the fact that Hull and Howe were so dominating reinforces that strength was more determinant of success in the league back then.

Now today if a muscle bound player that lacked cardio intensity tried to play in this NHL I doubt they would be able.

Lucic is the perfect example of this. Physically fit but lacked the endurance/conditioning, we all saw how quickly his game fell apart

 

[ffh]

Lemieux -1 mcjesus- 2. I like.

 

[tarheelhockey]

There's a reason players today don't develop their upper bodies like this- it slows them down.

That’s a bit of a circular argument. If the game moved slower, it would be very important to have that upper-body strength to fight through traffic and shed checks. We saw this as recently as the 2000s with guys like Lindros and Pronger and Jagr who had very muscular upper bodies. To say nothing of Brind’Amour or Roberts.

In a league that’s more about speed, upper body strength becomes less important. Maybe Pronger looks a little lost out there if he plays in 2024.

That doesn’t mean Pronger was worse than, say, Quinn Hughes. It might mean Hughes is a better fit for the current league but not that he’s fundamentally better as a hockey player.

 

[jackp0t]

Since entering the league, McDavid has 184 more points than MacKinnon in the same amount of games (about 600). MacKinnon is a franchise top 5 league forward.

This is the same point gap as MacKinnon and Zibanejad, who's still a first line centerman in the NHL on a top team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Crosby lost 3.5+ seasons at what is/was his peak and probably close to about 300 ish points which puts him in or around 2nd place. This is due to covid, lockout shortened season and Injuries

Mcdavid may break 1600+ points but has been remarkably healthy.

Jagr....bailed at one of his peaks at 110+ points per season and 30+ goals. Suffered a lockout shortened season in the 90s and a full lockout + another shortened in the 2000s or effectively 5.5+ seasons lost.

By this metric Jagr probably lost close to 100 or so goals and almost 450 points due to that. Which puts him over 2k points and close to 900 goals.

Id argue Jagr is the 2nd best player to have ever played the game by this metric.

Crosby and Jagr aren't even in the conversation for 2nd best player of all time. Gretzky is clearly #1 and I'd say that Orr and Lemieux are debatable for #2. I'm also not as high on Howe as others are.

Crosby is in the debate for the #5 spot (which will probably taken by McDavid or whoever McDavid pushes out of the top-4) while Jagr is borderline top-10.

 

[TDotMassive]

He needs cup wins to get in the conversation of top-4... if he can lead Edmonton (or Toronto lol) to a couple of cups, then he gets in that conversation. If he retires the best player to have never won, then he's outside the top-4 no doubt.

 

[plebskeeto]

I think he's probably the greatest player to play the game, I mean watching him is just mind blowing, speed, IQ. Threat from anywhere. If you put him against any opponent from those eras from the greats, he could easily get 4-5 pts/game. This isn't really a fair comparison though so we will have to just compare them to their competition.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jagr>>>>Crosby for 5th place IMO.

Jagr not close to 5th

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby and Jagr aren't even in the conversation for 2nd best player of all time. Gretzky is clearly #1 and I'd say that Orr and Lemieux are debatable for #2. I'm also not as high on Howe as others are.

Crosby is in the debate for the #5 spot (which will probably taken by McDavid or whoever McDavid pushes out of the top-4) while Jagr is borderline top-10.

Mcdavid is ahead of Crosby all time

He's 5th at worst right now.

5 rosses + 4 lindsays + 3 harts + rocket

3rd highest ppg in NHL history at the moment

By the time hes 30 he should be clear cut #3 all time