Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Coffey]

I'll make it nice and simple then:

Gordie Howe is a 6 time MVP. Mario Lemieux is a 3 time MVP.

Howe was a Hart finalist 12 times. Lemieux did it 7 times.

Howe is 2nd all time in adjusted points. Lemieux is 13th.

Howe is 2nd all time in adjusted goals. Lemieux is 19th.

Howe led the NHL in goals 5 times. Lemieux did it 3 times.

They both led the NHL in points 6 times.

Howe wa a very good defensive player. Mario Lemieux was generationally bad at defense.

Yea against 5 teams and zero Europeans or Americans.

Pweh.

 

[MadLuke]

He is keeping his options to do so imo, would his great playoff run turn into a cup like Mario would help a lot. Gretzky seem out of touch, but everyone else....

Literally only Canadians (when Canada had 17 million people).

Canada population is not the most interesting metric, nhl age male canadian born population would tend to be more interesting.

When Howe scored 103 pts, 2 millions Canadians were between 20 and 34 in 2005-2006 it was 2.77 millions.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Ok, but Matthews is 3rd then.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yea against 5 teams and zero Europeans or Americans.

Pweh.

Yeah that's true Howe's competition (97%+ Canadian) was weaker than Lemieux's (ranging from 80% Canadian to 60% Canadian), and Lemieux's competition was weaker than the subsequent generation (42% Canadian).

You can adjust for that but it still doesn't get Lemieux anywhere near Howe.

 

[MadLuke]

Howe's 6 Art Rosses by margin of victory

33.8%
30.3%
24.6%
20.9%
6.2%
4.7%

McDavid's 4 Art Rosses

25.0%
12.4%
7.0%
5.9%

McDavid is currently 28.4% ahead of Draisailt

Howe had 6 Harts and 12 times a finalist.

McDavid is about to win his 3rd Hart and will have been a finalist 5 times.

You can look at their VsX7s.
Howe: 125.5 (only behind Gretzky and Esposito)
McDavid: 104.5 (will be around 115 at the end of the year)

All factually true, but margin of victory is such a noisy metric.

Crosby has an impressive margin in 2014, what if one of Malkin-Kane-Stamkos would have had a good year that season as well ? What does it tell us, should it make it less impressive, less impressive by a significant amount or Malkin missing games does not make Crosby season more impressive by itself at all.

Yzerman 155 pts season is almost negative 25%, what does it tell us versus Jamie Benn Art Ross win ?

Looking at the 7th best point finish in 1951 vs 2021 do seem also a bit unfair.

Jagr-Esposito-McDavid before the last season-Howe were quite similar I think

 

[HFpapi]

He is keeping his options to do so imo, would his great playoff run turn into a cup like Mario would help a lot. Gretzky seem out of touch, but everyone else....


Canada population is not the most interesting metric, nhl age male canadian born population would tend to be more interesting.

When Howe scored 103 pts, 2 millions Canadians were between 20 and 34 in 2005-2006 it was 2.77 millions.

Ok and now what about the NHL age male population of USA + Sweden + Finland + Russia + Czechia + Slovakia?

My point wasn't just that there were less Canadians it's that the NHL was ONLY Canadians.

 

[snag]

Nobody is/was saying Ray Bourque is the 2nd best player of all-time though?

Nope.....neither did I

 

[norrisnick]

Ok and now what about the NHL age male population of USA + Sweden + Finland + Russia + Czechia + Slovakia?

My point wasn't just that there were less Canadians it's that the NHL was ONLY Canadians.

Again. Does McDavid become a worse player if you take out the current Euros?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mcdavid is ahead of Crosby all time

He's 5th at worst right now.

5 rosses + 4 lindsays + 3 harts + rocket

3rd highest ppg in NHL history at the moment

By the time hes 30 he should be clear cut #3 all time

At McDavid's age, Crosby had a 1.40 PPG and was 4th all-time in PPG. Today, that has fallen to a 1.26 PPG because of how he has aged.

That's why it's premature to put McDavid over Crosby, we don't know how he's going to age. It's by far most likely that McDavid overtakes Crosby, but comparing the prime years of McDavid to the careers of other players is not an apples to apples comparison.

McDavid has a great trophy case right now, but he doesn't have 1000 points yet, doesn't have a cup yet and has only played in his prime so far. The trophy case isn't enough to put him in the top-5 yet, at least IMO. He's clearly on track to end up there, but it's premature to put him there.

 

[CrazyDuck4u]

Mcdavid is the best player of all time.. Those gretzky days the goalies...Simply put.. Didnt have the skill they do today.. All my years of watching hockey.. Ive never seen a player do what he does at that speed. That includes Bure and Selanne.

 

[hamzarocks]

At McDavid's age, Crosby had a 1.40 PPG and was 4th all-time in PPG. Today, that has fallen to a 1.26 PPG because of how he has aged.

That's why it's premature to put McDavid over Crosby, we don't know how he's going to age. It's by far most likely that McDavid overtakes Crosby, but comparing the prime years of McDavid to the careers of other players is not an apples to apples comparison.

Guess that is fair but we arw in year 9 of Mcdavid and he hasnt fallen yet

Crosby saw a notable decline from year 9 or so (or maybe year 10).

Mcdavid seems to have bettee tools than Crosby partially due to Crosby having some key injuries (high ankle spraij in 08 which hurt his quickness and skating a bit being one)

Mcdavid if he does fall off should still be above 1.35ppg for his career when its done as he is increasing it steadly and has anotber 2-3 prime years left

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guess that is fair but we arw in year 9 of Mcdavid and he hasnt fallen yet

Crosby saw a notable decline from year 9 or so (or maybe year 10).

Mcdavid seems to have bettee tools than Crosby partially due to Crosby having some key injuries (high ankle spraij in 08 which hurt his quickness and skating a bit being one)

Mcdavid if he does fall off should still be above 1.35ppg for his career when its done as he is increasing it steadly and has anotber 2-3 prime years left

Yeah let me be clear, I fully expect McDavid to overtake Crosby yet. This is more about McDavid needing to play in the NHL for longer than anything else. He is clearly on track to end up a top-5 player, the interesting debate to me is whether he's on track to displace any of the top-4.

Mcdavid is the best player of all time.. Those gretzky days the goalies...Simply put.. Didnt have the skill they do today.. All my years of watching hockey.. Ive never seen a player do what he does at that speed. That includes Bure and Selanne.

This logic makes no sense to me. A majority of NHL players today would dominate hockey in the 1980s just because of how the sport has evolved and how fitness/training has developed. There are numerous players in the NHL today who are more talented than Gretzky was, but relative to the abilities of the league at their times, Gretzky clearly comes out on top.

 

[nbwingsfan]

At McDavid's age, Crosby had a 1.40 PPG and was 4th all-time in PPG. Today, that has fallen to a 1.26 PPG because of how he has aged.

That's why it's premature to put McDavid over Crosby, we don't know how he's going to age. It's by far most likely that McDavid overtakes Crosby, but comparing the prime years of McDavid to the careers of other players is not an apples to apples comparison.

McDavid has a great trophy case right now, but he doesn't have 1000 points yet, doesn't have a cup yet and has only played in his prime so far. The trophy case isn't enough to put him in the top-5 yet, at least IMO. He's clearly on track to end up there, but it's premature to put him there.

Id say 5 Art Ross and very possibly 6 by the end of this season puts him in te top 5 very comfortably

 

[Midnight Judges]

At McDavid's age, Crosby had a 1.40 PPG and was 4th all-time in PPG. Today, that has fallen to a 1.26 PPG because of how he has aged.

That's why it's premature to put McDavid over Crosby, we don't know how he's going to age. It's by far most likely that McDavid overtakes Crosby, but comparing the prime years of McDavid to the careers of other players is not an apples to apples comparison.

McDavid has a great trophy case right now, but he doesn't have 1000 points yet, doesn't have a cup yet and has only played in his prime so far. The trophy case isn't enough to put him in the top-5 yet, at least IMO. He's clearly on track to end up there, but it's premature to put him there.

I agree, but at the same time I don't know how people square that with Bobby Orr's placement - which seems to indicate that longevity is worth almost nothing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Id say 5 Art Ross and very possibly 6 by the end of this season puts him in te top 5 very comfortably

The thing keeping him out of the top-5 right now is longetivity and cup wins, not more individual awards. Adding another Art Ross isn't going to change that.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

I would say he is a lock to be #3 but passing Lemieux is gonna be tough

 

[Score08]

I could get behind this as long as he finishes his career with multiple cups. He can’t compete with the great ones until he has cups.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I could get behind this as long as he finishes his career with multiple cups. He can’t compete with the great ones until he has cups.

Do you look at ray Bourques legacy differently before his time in Colorado?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Nope.....neither did I

I generally think of it as “you need a cup to be in the top 10 (or maybe even top 30), but having a cup doesn’t mean you should automatically be in the top 10 (or 30)”, and I’m sure most media voters and those on HoH would agree as well. Right or wrong, this has always been the precedent.

 

[Coffey]

Do you look at ray Bourques legacy differently before his time in Colorado?

Add Hasek to that too.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Add Hasek to that too.

Yeah exactly. I could never put hasek as a top goalie like Martin Brodeur if he didn't have that cup win in 2008....

Yeah exactly. I could never put hasek as a top goalie like Martin Brodeur if he didn't have that cup win in 2008.... (I think I have the year wrong but I also don't think it matters)

 

[CN8]

At McDavid's age, Crosby had a 1.40 PPG and was 4th all-time in PPG. Today, that has fallen to a 1.26 PPG because of how he has aged.

That's why it's premature to put McDavid over Crosby, we don't know how he's going to age. It's by far most likely that McDavid overtakes Crosby, but comparing the prime years of McDavid to the careers of other players is not an apples to apples comparison.

McDavid has a great trophy case right now, but he doesn't have 1000 points yet, doesn't have a cup yet and has only played in his prime so far. The trophy case isn't enough to put him in the top-5 yet, at least IMO. He's clearly on track to end up there, but it's premature to put him there.very fair

 

[Score08]

Do you look at ray Bourques legacy differently before his time in Colorado?

No, as good as Ray was, he doesn’t rank for me. Even his cup is suspect for me.

 

[HSF]

I thought this was common knowledge tbh

Dude is insane and is way better than Crosby was

 

[Galactico]

Yeah exactly. I could never put hasek as a top goalie like Martin Brodeur if he didn't have that cup win in 2008....

Hasek won in 2002 as a starter