Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[snag]

the stats are nice but idc if he finishes in 2nd all time points if he doesnt have 2 cups let alone 1.. you can't put him down as the 2nd best player of all time lol

Yeah Ray Bourque sucked ass too.

 

[kingsfan28]

Uh, no... Top 10 perhaps.

 

[Macheteops]

Crosby lost 3.5+ seasons at what is/was his peak and probably close to about 300 ish points which puts him in or around 2nd place. This is due to covid, lockout shortened season and Injuries

Mcdavid may break 1600+ points but has been remarkably healthy.

Jagr....bailed at one of his peaks at 110+ points per season and 30+ goals. Suffered a lockout shortened season in the 90s and a full lockout + another shortened in the 2000s or effectively 5.5+ seasons lost.

By this metric Jagr probably lost close to 100 or so goals and almost 450 points due to that. Which puts him over 2k points and close to 900 goals.

Id argue Jagr is the 2nd best player to have ever played the game by this metric.

He may break 1600+

Really conservative estimate I do say. He'll have 1600 likely around age 32. He'll eclipse 2000 points

 

[ozzie]

People can roll their eyes all they want. 1 cup changes every thing, even a cup final loss with a great performance.

Ray Bourque took his team to the finals twice against a legendary power house and was robbed of an MVP.

He didn’t need the cup but it was a nice story.

The other 4 are all winners, fair or not. Dionne suffers the same fate.

He could very well put up 2000 points and make a debate out of it but he has more work to do to challenge the greats.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

He needs at least 2 CS to compete with Mario as the best 2nd best forward post-expansion.

Even then, I'm not sure anyone will actually think he was "better" just able to stay healthier and have a better career (that's if he does win multiple cups and CS trophies.

He could easily be the 3rd best forward post-expansion though, even with just 1 cup and CS

 

[Warh1ppy]

Crosby and Jagr aren't even in the conversation for 2nd best player of all time. Gretzky is clearly #1 and I'd say that Orr and Lemieux are debatable for #2. I'm also not as high on Howe as others are.

Crosby is in the debate for the #5 spot (which will probably taken by McDavid or whoever McDavid pushes out of the top-4) while Jagr is borderline top-10.

Check those point totals. Tell me where Jagr is

 

[HFpapi]

Crosby and Jagr aren't even in the conversation for 2nd best player of all time. Gretzky is clearly #1 and I'd say that Orr and Lemieux are debatable for #2. I'm also not as high on Howe as others are.

Crosby is in the debate for the #5 spot (which will probably taken by McDavid or whoever McDavid pushes out of the top-4) while Jagr is borderline top-10.

Have it exactly as you do.

Wayne indisputably #1. Mario and Orr interchangeable for 2 & 3. Personally I like 66 more in that spot since he's the only player in history who could do what Wayne could, just couldn't stay healthy. No issues at all with people putting Orr #2 however.

People who have Howe over Mario confuse me. Howe to me is easily #4 in that big 4 but nonetheless an absolute legend and def worthy of making it a "big 4."

That said, I think Howe is for sure the most likely for McDavid to pass and in fact I am on record in this thread as saying it's basically inevitable McDavid passes him. 5 Rosses in 8 seasons in the modern era >>> 6 Rosses in a 30 year career in a mostly 6 team league where the entire talent pool came from Canada with 17 million people.

Crosby I think is the consensus 5th best player at this point. Undecided if I think McDavid has already passed him for that spot but it's literally just a matter of time before he does (and I'm a huge Crosby guy).

Jagr has no argument for 5th much less 2. Def in the convo for top 10 though.

Check those point totals. Tell me where Jagr is

Nobody has ever made a serious argument for Jagr at #2, come off it.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Yeah Ray Bourque sucked ass too.

Nobody is/was saying Ray Bourque is the 2nd best player of all-time though?

 

[Bank Shot]

He really doesnt.

Howe's 6 Art Rosses by margin of victory

33.8%
30.3%
24.6%
20.9%
6.2%
4.7%

McDavid's 4 Art Rosses

25.0%
12.4%
7.0%
5.9%

McDavid is currently 28.4% ahead of Draisailt

Howe had 6 Harts and 12 times a finalist.

McDavid is about to win his 3rd Hart and will have been a finalist 5 times.

You can look at their VsX7s.
Howe: 125.5 (only behind Gretzky and Esposito)
McDavid: 104.5 (will be around 115 at the end of the year)

McDavid is competing against 31 other teams first liners. The more players you have, the more chance someone has a fluke year and puts up crazy points. Like Gaudreau and Huberdeau for example.

Its more impressive to consistently win the Art Ross against a bigger pool of talent IMO.

 

[rfournier103]

I like Connor McDavid a lot, and watch the Oilers on TV when I can. Having said that, I found this on fb this morning. Very interesting.

McDavid is in very elite company.

 

[MNRube]

He needs way more postseason accolades to be #2.

There’s also this other part of hockey called defense.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Unlikely unless you have a strong preference for recent players. Oh wait, this is hfboards where players from before 1990 were cavemen.. then I guess it’s possible.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

He needs way more postseason accolades to be #2.

There’s also this other part of hockey called defense.

Bob Gainey greatest player of all time confirmed

 

[Goose]

When he loses that explosive speed due to age we will see how it affects him.

He could surpass Crosby, and that’s saying something, but it’s not guaranteed.

Putting him 2nd is too subjective to really evaluate, how do you compare him to Orr really?

Also, even if he keeps up his pace I would still take prime healthy Lemieux over prime healthy McDavid if I was building an imaginary team.

Regardless he’s the best player of this current generation, the torch has clearly been handed from Crosby, it will be fun to see how long he can continue to stay at the top. Amazing player who’s been fun to watch, hopefully he gets at least one cup.

 

[Coffey]

He could easily be the 3rd best forward post-expansion though, even with just 1 cup and CS

Why do you keep saying post-expansion? He's already better than every corpse that played pre-expansion. Irrelevant verbiage.

 

[Fishy McScales]

People can roll their eyes all they want. 1 cup changes every thing, even a cup final loss with a great performance.

Ray Bourque took his team to the finals twice against a legendary power house and was robbed of an MVP.

He didn’t need the cup but it was a nice story.

The other 4 are all winners, fair or not. Dionne suffers the same fate.

He could very well put up 2000 points and make a debate out of it but he has more work to do to challenge the greats.

Well obviously. The greats' careers are done, McDavid still has a lot left of his.

The OP is a prediction, not a summary.

 

[Coffey]

He really doesnt.

Howe's 6 Art Rosses by margin of victory

33.8%
30.3%
24.6%
20.9%
6.2%
4.7%

McDavid's 4 Art Rosses

25.0%
12.4%
7.0%
5.9%

McDavid is currently 28.4% ahead of Draisailt

Howe had 6 Harts and 12 times a finalist.

McDavid is about to win his 3rd Hart and will have been a finalist 5 times.

You can look at their VsX7s.
Howe: 125.5 (only behind Gretzky and Esposito)
McDavid: 104.5 (will be around 115 at the end of the year)

Yea against 5 teams and zero Europeans.

Pweh.

 

[HFpapi]

Yea against 5 teams and zero Europeans.

Pweh.

Or Americans even.

Literally only Canadians (when Canada had 17 million people).

The NHL's entire talent pool came from something the size of present day Netherlands when Howe was winning his scoring titles.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Or Americans even.

Literally only Canadians (when Canada had 17 million people).

The NHL's entire talent pool came from something the size of present day Netherlands when Howe was winning his scoring titles.

Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Coffey]

Or Americans even.

Literally only Canadians (when Canada had 17 million people).

The NHL's entire talent pool came from something the size of present day Netherlands when Howe was winning his scoring titles.

And all hockey historians can't stop polishing his knob!
Embarrassing to say the least, papi.

 

[norrisnick]

If you took all Europeans out of the modern NHL would that make McDavid a worse player?

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Uh, no... Top 10 perhaps.

There is zero argument that he isn’t already top 10 lol

 

[HFpapi]

If you took all Europeans out of the modern NHL would that make McDavid a worse player?

It would certainly boost his % of scoring victory over other players. Remove Draisaitl from last season for example and how much does McDavid win the scoring title by?

The notion is explicitly in response to someone posting Howe's margins of victory over 2nd place scorer.

When someone posts Howe's "amazing" margins of victories, it's fair to point out he never had to compete against a single American, Russian, Swede, Czech, Finn. German, etc is it not?

 

[Coffey]

If you took all Europeans out of the modern NHL would that make McDavid a worse player?

It would make him look better than he actually is.

No Kucherov, Panarin, Pastrnak and Rantanen in the scoring race.
No Vasilevskys or Sorokins making crazy saves and stopping the Oil.
Euro dmen kinda suck now, so that won't affect much.

 

[Midnight Judges]

People who have Howe over Mario confuse me.

I'll make it nice and simple then:

Gordie Howe is a 6 time MVP. Mario Lemieux is a 3 time MVP.

Howe was a Hart finalist 12 times. Lemieux did it 7 times.

Howe is 2nd all time in adjusted points. Lemieux is 13th.

Howe is 2nd all time in adjusted goals. Lemieux is 19th.

Howe led the NHL in goals 5 times. Lemieux did it 3 times.

They both led the NHL in points 6 times.

Howe was a very good defensive player. Mario Lemieux was generationally bad at defense.