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Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

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gritdash60 said:
Connor Mcdavid is already the best player to ever play the game. Yep Gretzky has all the records etc, but it was when goalies didn't know you can go on you knees and defenders could'nt skate to save their lives. It actually isn't even close, current McDavid would've scored like 400 points per season back then. And yes, i am serious.
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Ok I guess you can say the same about multiple players playing in Gretzky's era. Do you think Wayne belongs in the top 100?
 
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Teemu Selänne said "i know it was the clutch n grab era, but me and Paul were so lucky, every team had one or two defender who could skate, and we were faster than them" "The rest of them had no idea how to turn on their skates, and the goalies had half the equipment they do today, and they never went down."

tom_servo said:
Ok I guess you can say the same about multiple players playing in Gretzky's era. Do you think Wayne belongs in the top 100?
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OFC he does, he belongs and he is the #1 of all time. Doesn't take away from what i said though.

What i mean is: What he did in his era, is even greater than what McDavid is doing now.(that might change) IMO. But he is not the best player to ever play, McDavid is.
 
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gritdash60 said:
Teemu Selänne said "i know it was the clutch n grab era, but me and Paul were so lucky, every team had one or two defender who could skate, and we were faster than them" "The rest of them had no idea how to turn on their skates, and the goalies had half the equipment they do today, and they never went down."


OFC he does, he belongs and he is the #1 of all time. Doesn't take away from what i said though.

What i mean is: What he did in his era, is even greater than what McDavid is doing now.(that might change) IMO. But he is not the best player to ever play, McDavid is.
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You called McDavid the GOAT and then Gretzky the GOAT so I guess I'm a little confused. I don't think anyone disputes it was easier to score in Gretzky's era. Doesn't explain why he could do it 50-100% better than his competition.
 
What im trying to say is: the best player in the 80's or 90's obviously had VERY different opposition than the players today. And yes they also had very different equipment and rules back then. But i don't think anyone can claim that a player has played the game with such speed and skill before McDavid, the people who do are either just nostalgic or have not watched one or either play.

tom_servo said:
You called McDavid the GOAT and then Gretzky the GOAT so I guess I'm a little confused. I don't think anyone disputes it was easier to score in Gretzky's era. Doesn't explain why he could do it 50-100% better than his competition.
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McDavid is the best player to ever lace his skates and there is no doubt in my mind about that. Gretzky is still the GOAT because he was so much better than his peers for me. Maybe thats stupid but thats just how i feel.

What im trying to say is Gretzky was even better against his competition than McDavid is atm, which is debatable because when im saying that im actually not sure.
 
gritdash60 said:
But i don't think anyone can claim that a player has played the game with such speed and skill before McDavid, the people who do are either just nostalgic or have not watched one or either play.
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Why would anyone say that. That's not the debate at all. And it's just as applicable to many top players today besides McDavid. Ovechkin would blast 105 goals in 1985, we know this.
 
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tom_servo said:
Why would anyone say that. That's not the debate at all. And it's just as applicable to many top players today besides McDavid. Ovechkin would blast 105 goals in 1985, we know this.
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Anyone who thinks Gretzky in the shape he was in, would dominate in the way McDavid does now, is f***ing delusional. Your average player in the NHL is so much closer to an actual top level athlete than back then.

Edit: and that's how it should be, you cant be a NHL star just by being a top athlete, you also need to know how to f***ing play the game.
 
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The most imbalanced era was around 1985 to 1995
Skaters got much better over a short amount of time, while goaltending was a decade behind still mostly playing rod hockey

Just look at this ''top 10'' Lemieux goal, Theses are the last couple of years where goalie where, ''by today standard'' a bit clumsy.

Decking the defenders appear 4-5 times more difficult than putting it past the goalie.
 
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GrumpyKoala said:
The most imbalanced era was around 1985 to 1995
Skaters got much better over a short amount of time, while goaltending was a decade behind still mostly playing rod hockey

Just look at this ''top 10'' Lemieux goal, Theses are the last couple of years where goalie where, ''by today standard'' a bit clumsy.

Decking the defenders appear 4-5 times more difficult than putting it past the goalie.
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"a bit clumsy" huh? On todays standards there wasnt a goalie at all.
 
gritdash60 said:
Anyone who thinks Gretzky in the shape he was in, would dominate in the way McDavid does now, is f***ing delusional. Your average player in the NHL is so much closer to an actual top level athlete than back then.

Edit: and that's how it should be, you cant be a NHL star just by being a top athlete, you also need to know how to f***ing play the game.
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We get it, the more modern the athlete the more they would dominate the old eras. That's simply what we have to correct for in these discussions. Kind of boring to just go with the newest player every time.
 
Montreal Shadow said:
Yeah, so both are small players who aren't physically or athletically impressive.

Bobby-Hull.jpg


I'd bet prime Hull could outdo Kucherov in a fitness combine in damn near everything.
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Athlete ability does not correlate in the slightest with how someone looks. I look like I'm in better shape than 95%+ people, but my athletic ability is absolutely terrible. I can't sprint more than 50m without throwing up.


Could Hull outdo Kucherov in a bench press contest? Pullup contest? Maybe? Probably? Who cares, it doesn't matter. Fitness tests based around conditioning, skating, agility, things that matter in hockey, it's Kucherov every day over prime Hull.

Hockey IQ, which can't be measured by sort of tests or combines, is far, far more important than athletiscm in hockey. Greatest player of all time, Gretzky, proved that.
 
hamzarocks said:
Howe was fitter/stronger than 99% of players who played today

Same with Bobby Hull

There was a reason these guys dominated hockey (NHL + WHA) for 20 - 30 years.

Howe would easily be a top 6 player in this NHL in his career primes along with

Gretzky
Lemiuex
Mcdavid
Orr
Crosby

Hull would be in the next tier with

OV
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Matthews
Mack
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Prime Malkin is better than Prime McKinnon and Matthew's and Kucherov and Draisaitl
 
gritdash60 said:
Connor Mcdavid is already the best player to ever play the game. Yep Gretzky has all the records etc, but it was when goalies didn't know you can go on you knees and defenders could'nt skate to save their lives. It actually isn't even close, current McDavid would've scored like 400 points per season back then. And yes, i am serious.
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He would score 400 points per season... playing pond hockey, after Potvin or Stevens would rip his head off and end his season. And I'm not sure about 400 points in street hockey either, with the old equipment and skates.

Gretzky would score 400 points in today's league though. With this equipment, skates, no red line, no Semenko on his line, no physicality, goalies that go down as soon as the opposing forward enters the zone, and extreme reliance on "systems" that Gretzky's mind would exploit like no tomorrow.
 
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gritdash60 said:
Connor Mcdavid is already the best player to ever play the game. Yep Gretzky has all the records etc, but it was when goalies didn't know you can go on you knees and defenders could'nt skate to save their lives. It actually isn't even close, current McDavid would've scored like 400 points per season back then. And yes, i am serious.
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Thank God you finally showed up to educate us.

I’ll shut the the history subforum then, since it’s irrelevant.

And I may as well shut down this subforum, since everyone playing today will be worse than some player who hasn’t even been born yet. Clearly a waste of time to talk about them, and we’ll just look stupid in three decades.

Again, thank you for your service.
 
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gritdash60 said:
Anyone who thinks Gretzky in the shape he was in, would dominate in the way McDavid does now, is f***ing delusional. Your average player in the NHL is so much closer to an actual top level athlete than back then.

Edit: and that's how it should be, you cant be a NHL star just by being a top athlete, you also need to know how to f***ing play the game.
Click to expand...

I always find the hard disrespect to Gretzky's athleticism fascinating.

 
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Offtheboard412 said:
Especially when there's guys like Patrick Kane playing who are absolute twigs. Ill never forget seeing that photo of him throwing out the first pitch at a Cubs game. Definitely didn't look like some kind of super athlete
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And you know, i don't think anyone thinks he's some freak of nature or anything. But people talk about him like he was this Pee-wee skater with a hockey super computer brain combination that only worked because it was the 80s.

Obviously his best asset was that he had the hockey super computer. But straight up he was faster than 99% plus of the league and had an incredible tenacity to him. And sure, he didn't exactly have McDavid or MacKinnon style explosiveness, but if you were in a flat foot race with him you lose every time, and if you caught him in a pick battle he'd outworked you for body position and steal the puck before you could nail him every time.

He was like if Joe Thornton had Marchasseault size and compete. How else do people think he made behind the net his office in that era? If he wasn't fast and just absolutely dogged he just gets stapled to the boards and crumpled.
 
gritdash60 said:
Anyone who thinks Gretzky in the shape he was in, would dominate in the way McDavid does now, is f***ing delusional. Your average player in the NHL is so much closer to an actual top level athlete than back then.

Edit: and that's how it should be, you cant be a NHL star just by being a top athlete, you also need to know how to f***ing play the game.
Click to expand...
Gretzky, in the late 90s, at 37ish years old, dead puck era, with a broken body and failing back, on a dismal NYR team with practically no support besides declining versions of John MacLean, Adam Graves, and Brian Leetch, still scored over 90 points and led the league in assists. He was pacing with prime Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, etc. Only prime Jagr was a class above.

Jagr, at 43 years old in 2015-16, scored 66 points, good for 21st in the league and only 5 points less than 30-year old Ovechkin.

The greatest players transcend eras and would dominate in any time. Gretzky would likely be putting up 150+ points every year if he played now. Don't forget, he would have had modern training, nutrition, skating, equipment, etc. just like McDavid does.
 
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l'll believe it when l see it.

As for them being a contender, they've still got 4 years of Campbell.
 
The league is closer in talent than it ever has.
Long gone are the chain-smoking, talentless plugs that were plentiful on every team, zero IQ defense and midget goalies with phone book pads.
That's what made the great players back then extra great.

What McDavid is doing now in an era where talent in the league is much closer to each other than ever before, is truly incredible. I won't say he's the 2nd best player of all time, but the dominance over his peers is truly exceptional in a time where the talent pool is this tight.

Mario and Gretz were 20 years ahead of the rest of the league.

I mean... C'mon.

1688076601227.png


MCR74 said:
l'll believe it when l see it.

As for them being a contender, they've still got 4 years of Campbell.
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See what? Domination over his peers in the regular season and post season? Seth Rorabaugh, is that you?
 
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