Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[blundluntman]

Oh I was meaning forwards only haha

Ah I gotcha. Yeah in that case it's very much possible given how he performs in the postseason

 

[HFpapi]

Video taped players from the 80s? LOL, wow. You mean there is no 50+ year old posters here? I watched, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, Neely, Lemieux and more play.

I am out of this conversation. Its just bizarre.

What ? You were the one who brought up the fact that there are tapes of players like Orr playing. Is watching that supposed to make me think higher of him? The game evolves. Watching 40/50/60 year old tape never does an athlete any favours.

What point were you trying to make by informing me that cameras existed when Orr played? I've watched them. It looks pretty bad by 2023 standards.

If you're argument is that Orr was better than McDavid relative to their peers that's obviously a very legitimate and in fact so far consensus opinion. I happen to think McDavid is so good he might end up being better than Orr relative to their respective peers.

If you think Orr is just straight up better at hockey than McDavid in a vacuum you're totally out to lunch.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Rankings have always been a blend of the two.

Yes, I know video cameras date back to Orr and Howe and it does them no favours.

I think that video tape needs to be ignored to have a subjective debate, trying to keep those players in their respective context.

Are you implying that the tape of players from the 50's-80's helps their case? I'm not so sure Howe would be able to play midget AA today if he was sucked into a time machine and spat out in 2023.

Would McDavid be a top scorer in a league where dudes could punch you in the back of the head and face very little discipline? Would he be a top scorer in a league that used a wooden stick and where there wasn't access to numerous nutritional information? The game and life in general changes overtime, that doesn't mean the most recent top player is automatically above the older players.

As good as McDavid is, it's personally hard for me to even put him in the conversation with these greats because he's won absolutely nothing in a higher ranked league. OHL? Nothing NHL? Nothing. You can say oh there's more teams now and it's harder to win which is true but which all time great from 2000-2023 doesn't have a cup? Almost every single one that comes to mind has won at some point.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Would McDavid be a top scorer in a league where dudes could punch you in the back of the head and face very little discipline? Would he be a top scorer in a league that used a wooden stick and where there wasn't access to numerous nutritional information? The game and life in general changes overtime, that doesn't mean the most recent top player is automatically above the older players.

As good as McDavid is, it's personally hard for me to even put him in the conversation with these greats because he's won absolutely nothing in a higher ranked league. OHL? Nothing NHL? Nothing. You can say oh there's more teams now and it's harder to win which is true but which all time great from 2000-2023 doesn't have a cup? Almost every single one that comes to mind has won at some point.

Yep and leather skate boots.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

As far as I can tell, only 11 players in all of NHL history have placed in the top five in Hart trophy voting 4+ times by the time they're 26(*):

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	Total
Gretzky	8​					8​
Orr	3​		4​	1​		8​
McDavid	3​	1​	1​		2​	7​
Lemieux	1​	2​		1​	1​	5​
Clarke	3​			1​		4​
Crosby	2​	1​	1​			4​
Howe	2​		1​	1​		4​
Lafleur	2​		1​		1​	4​
Hull	1​	2​	1​			4​
Jagr	1​	2​		1​		4​
Trottier	1​	2​			1​	4​

I've found 10 players who have done this three times: Apps, Bathgate, Beliveau, Bourque, Harvey, Kelly, MacKinnon, Malkin, Mikita, and Ovechkin. There may be a few that I missed.

If you think I'm being too lenient by looking at top 5's only, McDavid is tied for 2nd (behind only Gretzky) in wins through age 26. And he's 3rd (behind Gretzky and Orr) in years as a finalist (top three).

Note - I'm using the player's age from hockey-reference.com.

 

[McVespa99]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

 

[McVespa99]

Second regular season player.

He is 4th right now in post season ppg. Not exactly a slouch.

 

[McVespa99]

Maybe McDavid should start with selling more jerseys than Crosby before anointing him a “mythical player”. McDavid may very well be the better player, but no way in hell is he anywhere near as famous as Crosby.

Lol. Really?

 

[Hockeyholic]

I understand the cup argument.

But what if he wins it playing injured/missing some games, and scoring say...15 points in 24 games.

Does that enhance his legacy much more than it is now. Or does it need to be a Conn Smythe type run?

 

[Voight]

At this point he'll likely retire with more Harts/Art Ross' than anyone but Gretzky, he could end up with as many if not more Lindsay/Pearsons.

 

[McVespa99]

Would McDavid be a top scorer in a league where dudes could punch you in the back of the head and face very little discipline? Would he be a top scorer in a league that used a wooden stick and where there wasn't access to numerous nutritional information? The game and life in general changes overtime, that doesn't mean the most recent top player is automatically above the older players.

As good as McDavid is, it's personally hard for me to even put him in the conversation with these greats because he's won absolutely nothing in a higher ranked league. OHL? Nothing NHL? Nothing. You can say oh there's more teams now and it's harder to win which is true but which all time great from 2000-2023 doesn't have a cup? Almost every single one that comes to mind has won at some point.

As has been stated on here 1,000,000 times hockey is a team game. Gretz only won a cup with what? 7 HOF players on his team. Lemieux had several on his teams as well. The current Oilers will have 2. This should not have to be repeated soooooo many times on here to get people to understand.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

As has been stated on here 1,000,000 times hockey is a team game. Gretz only won a cup with what? 7 HOF players on his team. Lemieux had several on his teams as well. The current Oilers will have 2. This should not have to be repeated soooooo many times on here to get people to understand.

McDavid has more than enough talent around him. You're acting like he's playing on the ducks.

 

[Sentinel]

As has been stated on here 1,000,000 times hockey is a team game. Gretz only won a cup with what? 7 HOF players on his team. Lemieux had several on his teams as well. The current Oilers will have 2. This should not have to be repeated soooooo many times on here to get people to understand.

I seriously doubt anybody on the 2018 Caps, besides Ovy, makes the HHOF. I seriously doubt anybody on the 2019 Blues makes the HHOF. I seriously doubt anybody on the 2023 Knights makes the HHOF.

Backstrom, Pietrangelo, and MAF might but their award record is dismal. Holtby? Eichel?

 

[McFlash97]

This is something that tends to get overlooked. Speed and dekes are clouding people's judgement in this tiktok age.

McDavid as a point producing powerhouse is a notch above Crosby, but as an overall player? I'm not as sure. Crosby did what he had to win and was pretty gritty amongst other things.

Of Grit was a determining factor when considering the greatest hockey players of all time, you would have more than Howe in the top 5.

McDavid is pretty dam gritty when he needs to be also. He isn't just all skating and dekes. His ability to protect pucks, come out of a corner with pucks and driving the net is also pretty dam good.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Would McDavid be a top scorer in a league where dudes could punch you in the back of the head and face very little discipline? Would he be a top scorer in a league that used a wooden stick and where there wasn't access to numerous nutritional information? The game and life in general changes overtime, that doesn't mean the most recent top player is automatically above the older players.

As good as McDavid is, it's personally hard for me to even put him in the conversation with these greats because he's won absolutely nothing in a higher ranked league. OHL? Nothing NHL? Nothing. You can say oh there's more teams now and it's harder to win which is true but which all time great from 2000-2023 doesn't have a cup? Almost every single one that comes to mind has won at some point.

The championship argument is just weaksauce. An individual player has very little control over that. Had Bourque retired after the 2000 season, or the Avs lost game 7 in 01 is he somehow less of a player? Of course not, don't be stupid.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I seriously doubt anybody on the 2018 Caps, besides Ovy, makes the HHOF. I seriously doubt anybody on the 2019 Blues makes the HHOF. I seriously doubt anybody on the 2023 Knights makes the HHOF.

Backstrom, Pietrangelo, and MAF might but their award record is dismal. Holtby? Eichel?

That would have to be an NHL first I'd think. Cup winner without hofers. Pietrangelo may make it.

MAF will definitely make it. But he wasn't on any of the above mentioned teams.

 

[abo9]

Imo he's already top 10 if he retired now

Winning two more art rosses put him in the top 5, and then after that its about longevity.

I grew up with Crosby and it was fantastic, but people were looking for a new Gretzky baddd. Excuses were flying; if it wasnt injuries it was the more even playomg field, "nobody will be able to dominate like Gretzky due to parity". The concept of an utterly dominant player was pushed aside, since it was apparently not possible anymore. Players are training hard, so cant take advantage of smokers anymore.

Well, McDavid shook that notion. 5 art rosses (3 in a row), 3 Hart, 4 Pearson, and the Rocket to top it off, is just... legendary.

Couple McDavid's recent domination to Ovechkin chasing the goal record...At least, its making ME rethink that Gretzky's records are beatable. Maybe not by McDavid, but maybe a player will come who will be even better

 

[McPoyle]

2nd best all time is a hell of a hill to climb. Has to pass all of Howe, Orr and Lemieux.

But after 8 NHL seasons he has: 3 Harts, 4 Lindsays, 5 Art Ross, 5 1AST, 1 2AST, 1 Rocket. That is a hell of a resume that only a handful of legends can beat.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

The championship argument is just weaksauce. An individual player has very little control over that. Had Bourque retired after the 2000 season, or the Avs lost game 7 in 01 is he somehow less of a player? Of course not, don't be stupid.

An individual has a lot of control over that. Do the pens win a cup without Crosby? Of course not.

Would Bourque be less of a player? No but nobody would be talking about him being better than players of similar accomplishments that had the same skill level if he never won the big one.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Kind of a random but related question... does anyone rank Howe as #1? Gretzky is the most common #1, but Orr and/or Mario also have a decent number of people that consider them #1.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Kind of a random but related question... does anyone rank Howe as #1? Gretzky is the most common #1, but Orr and/or Mario also have a decent number of people that consider them #1.

Here's how the voting went in the History forum's Top 100 project (which started in fall 2018):

Player	Points	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th
Wayne Gretzky	293​	23​	3​	4​				1​
Gordie Howe	267​	3​	16​	9​	3​
Bobby Orr	263​	5​	9​	13​	4​
Mario Lemieux	225​		3​	4​	22​	2​
Jean Beliveau	155​			1​	1​	10​	10​	4​	4​	1​
Bobby Hull	139​					8​	9​	8​	3​	2​	1​
Doug Harvey	120​				1​	5​	3​	10​	6​	4​	2​
Maurice Richard	94​					2​	5​	4​	7​	7​	6​
Patrick Roy	91​					4​	3​	3​	6​	7​	8​
Ray Bourque	58​						1​	1​	5​	10​	14​

Gretzky got two-thirds of the first place votes, with Orr and Howe getting a few each. (Yes, one contrarian ranked Gretzky 7th).

The "Big Four" (which applies to hockey players, accounting firms, and thrash metal bands) accounted for 121 of a possible 124 top four votes.

Again, this was from fall 2018 - so nobody should be complaining about why Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid aren't on the list.

 

[Coffey]

The championship argument is just weaksauce. An individual player has very little control over that. Had Bourque retired after the 2000 season, or the Avs lost game 7 in 01 is he somehow less of a player? Of course not, don't be stupid.

Or Hasek not joining the Wings.

 

[Video Nasty]

The hilarious thing about a majority of the detractors is that they’ll be claiming how blessed they were to watch McDavid when he’s having his retirement tour a dozen years from now.

Just accept the inevitable and actually enjoy it in real time. It’s not too late, even for you Nathaniel.

 

[Fordy]

The hilarious thing about a majority of the detractors is that they’ll be claiming how blessed they were to watch McDavid when he’s having his retirement tour a dozen years from now.

Just accept the inevitable and actually enjoy it in real time. It’s not too late, even for you Nathaniel.

i don't really watch him much tbh. when i do he's typically losing since i mainly see him in the playoffs. if he makes a final i'll watch every game. i'm sure that's how it is for a lot of people

 

[Video Nasty]

i don't really watch him much tbh. when i do he's typically losing since i mainly see him in the playoffs. if he makes a final i'll watch every game. i'm sure that's how it is for a lot of people

Makes sense. Who wants to watch the best in any given field perform their craft? What value could possible be derived from that? Much better to hyper focus on whatever the nearest stitched logo that one happened to be born by.