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Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

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Seeing MacKinnon + Makar + Rantanen + Toews not even being able to beat an expansion team in a best of 7 series just kinda hammers home how much any player in the NHL is dependant on the roster around them.

Gretzky couldn't win anything without a supporting cast so good they were able to win without him and Coffey.

Lemieux couldn't win anything and regularly missed the playoffs even before he got a virtual All-Star team put around him (ah the days of no salary cap).
 
McFlash97 said:
When you get the Conn Smythe trophies with 17 points, your getting hand me outs. Crosby will ultimately finish a ways behind McDavid when you look at the pantheon of generational players decades from now. McDavid will be a mythical player who changed the way players play. Crosby didn't. McDavid is this generations Gretzky. Crosby is this generations Brian Trottier. It is what it is brother.
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Dumb take for sure

Trottier is a no one compared to Crosby whose in the 6th to 11th best all time discussion

Just b/c Mcdavid is the better player doesnt discredit Crosby

He's win everything these is and missed out on a fair share due to injuries

It will ultimately end

Bedard > Mcdavid > Crosby
 
McFlash97 said:
When you get the Conn Smythe trophies with 17 points, your getting hand me outs. Crosby will ultimately finish a ways behind McDavid when you look at the pantheon of generational players decades from now. McDavid will be a mythical player who changed the way players play. Crosby didn't. McDavid is this generations Gretzky. Crosby is this generations Brian Trottier. It is what it is brother.
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Crosby probably has more influence on how the younger generation skates than any other player in history. As a hockey/skating coach I teach mohawks and edgework like Crosby and his influence can be seen everywhere, especially with the younger players.

www.espn.com.au

Generation Crosby: What the NHL's young stars learned by watching Sid

Sidney Crosby debuted in the 2005-06 season, when many of today's young stars were still just developing as players. We put No. 87's influence in perspective, with voices from among that group.
www.espn.com.au
 
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MartinS82 said:
Crosby probably has more influence on how the younger generation skates than any other player in history. As a hockey/skating coach I teach mohawks and edgework like Crosby and his influence can be seen everywhere, especially with the younger players.

www.espn.com.au

Generation Crosby: What the NHL's young stars learned by watching Sid

Sidney Crosby debuted in the 2005-06 season, when many of today's young stars were still just developing as players. We put No. 87's influence in perspective, with voices from among that group.
www.espn.com.au
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McDavids influence will be felt moving forward if not already so. It's about efficiency and finesse. Effortless and Edgework to accelerate. Crosby game is more about power and staying on your feet down low. As a father to a 3 year old and uncle to 6 other kids , it's all about watching and learning from McDavid. Maybe in your neck of the woods it's Sid. In my neck it's all McDavid.
 
Well folks.

3rd Hart Trophy at the tender age of 26, still dead smack in the middle of his prime. Ties him with Lemieux and Orr despite playing less games than Mario and only a handful more than Orr.

Also, fun fact. The first non-Canadian (born) Hart winner was Sergei Fedorov in 1993/4.

From 1923-1993 (70 years) only Canadians won it. McDavid is doing this in an era where Russians, Americans, Swedes, Czechs, and even Germans are winning the Hart. A truly international talent pool and he's standing as head and shoulders above the field as Howe or Orr ever did when it was almost exclusively Canadians when Canada had 17 million people.

5x Ross, 4x Lindsay, 3x Hart, 1x Rocket and just now at the age where players tend to peak.
 
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HFpapi said:
Well folks.

3rd Hart Trophy at the tender age of 26, still dead smack in the middle of his prime. Ties him with Lemieux and Orr despite playing less games than Mario and only a handful more than Orr.

Also, fun fact. The first non-Canadian (born) Hart winner was Sergei Fedorov in 1993/4.

From 1923-1993 (70 years) only Canadians won it. McDavid is doing this in an era where Russians, Americans, Swedes, Czechs, and even Germans are winning the Hart. A truly international talent pool and he's standing as head and shoulders above the field as Howe or Orr ever did when it was almost exclusively Canadians when Canada had 17 million people.

5x Ross, 4x Lindsay, 3x Hart, 1x Rocket and just now at the age where players tend to peak.
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Gotta be Jack Edwards right? I wonder if they'll release the voting lol
 
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HFpapi said:
There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?
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No.

He doesn't wear goalie equipment.
 
McFlash97 said:
When you get the Conn Smythe trophies with 17 points, your getting hand me outs. Crosby will ultimately finish a ways behind McDavid when you look at the pantheon of generational players decades from now. McDavid will be a mythical player who changed the way players play. Crosby didn't. McDavid is this generations Gretzky. Crosby is this generations Brian Trottier. It is what it is brother.
Click to expand...
Maybe McDavid should start with selling more jerseys than Crosby before anointing him a “mythical player”. McDavid may very well be the better player, but no way in hell is he anywhere near as famous as Crosby.
 
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MM917 said:
I doubt he ever passes Crosby on the list.

McDavid has two big minuses that although have nothing to do with him will likely hurt hi legacy when comepeting with the others.

1. If he sticks with Edmonton no chance to win a Cup let alone multiple Cups. While it might be unfair to hold up team achievements when judging individual players when you are talking about the GOAT's it will be a factor and every other top player has multiple wins so McDavid having none will hurt him. It will be interesting to see if he wins some late in his career after his prime is over and he leaves Edmonton how that might change but zero Cups in his prime won't help when it is such a close comparison.

2. No chance for international success. The Golden goal is a signature moment in Crosby's career, him leading Canada to one of the most dominant performances in Sochi helps him as well. Again this might not be fair and not everyone will say it matters but overall I think it affects people's view on players and McDavid is going to miss out on the chance to get that signature international moment- Gretzky to Lemiuex in 87 as well.

Even ignoring these I think it is way too early to think he will be number 2, that isn't a mark against him just an acknowledgement on how great the other players at the top are/were.
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He has a great chance at a cup. Edmonton is a contender.

He hasn't had international opportunities yet but that could still happen.
 
I still think he'll finish #5. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. If he wants to crack #4 he'll need to keep up this level of play for a couple more years and at least have a top 10 smythe performance of all time. Howe's peak was pretty similar when you consider the climate of the league at the time and his separation from his peers. I don't think he can touch Mario or Orr's peaks. He also has to have an answer to Howe's freakish longevity. It isn't out of the question but it's a tough mountain to climb.
 
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Silver Coffey said:
If Edmonton ever wins a cup, you can be guaranteed it would be a top 3 performance of all time.
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I wouldn't say it's guaranteed tbh. Gretzky had his 47 point performance, Roy in 93 was a mythical figure, and you have Giguere's .945. I'm not saying it's impossible considering he averaged 2ppg 2 seasons ago. But Mario has done the same and isn't in the top 3. I wouldn't exactly say it's guaranteed but it is possible.
 
toddkaz said:
The problem with this kinds of threads are people who start them aren't old enough to remember Lemieux.
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My formative hockey watching days were the early 2000's so I caught come-back Mario, 2002 Salt Lake Mario, 91 points in 67 games in 02/03 Mario and hours of YouTube highlights but admittedly didn't watch him in his 80's/90's prime, no.

Mario is someone I acknowledge in the OP as being someone McDavid didn't peak higher than but can make it up through overwhelming production since Mario played less than 1000 games.

With that said, I guarantee no one of these boards watching prime Howe or Orr is the only reason they are even in the conversation with McDavid. They've been mythologized for decades. McDavid is far more impressive.
 
The Grim Reaper said:
Maybe McDavid should start with selling more jerseys than Crosby before anointing him a “mythical player”. McDavid may very well be the better player, but no way in hell is he anywhere near as famous as Crosby.
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Riiight, cause that's how you should judge great players....by jersey sales :rolleyes:
 
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blundluntman29 said:
I wouldn't say it's guaranteed tbh. Gretzky had his 47 point performance, Roy in 93 was a mythical figure, and you have Giguere's .945. I'm not saying it's impossible considering he averaged 2ppg 2 seasons ago. But Mario has done the same and isn't in the top 3. I wouldn't exactly say it's guaranteed but it is possible.
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Oh I was meaning forwards only haha
 
HFpapi said:
My formative hockey watching days were the early 2000's so I caught come-back Mario, 2002 Salt Lake Mario, 91 points in 67 games in 02/03 Mario and hours of YouTube highlights but admittedly didn't watch him in his 80's/90's prime, no.

Mario is someone I acknowledge in the OP as being someone McDavid didn't peak higher than but can make it up through overwhelming production since Mario played less than 1000 games.

With that said, I guarantee no one of these boards watching prime Howe or Orr is the only reason they are even in the conversation with McDavid. They've been mythologized for decades. McDavid is far more impressive.
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You think that if there were more people who had seen prime Howe and Orr (and there are people who have seen prime Orr on these boards) were around it would actually help McDavid's case compared to them? People who watched Orr and Howe tend to be their only champions for best player of all time.

When the Hockey News did its famous ranking of the top 100 players ever 25 years ago Gretzky very narrowly beat out Orr (and Howe) and that was a group of people who had been involved in the NHL and actually watched Orr's career and in many cases Howe's as well.
 
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HFpapi said:
My formative hockey watching days were the early 2000's so I caught come-back Mario, 2002 Salt Lake Mario, 91 points in 67 games in 02/03 Mario and hours of YouTube highlights but admittedly didn't watch him in his 80's/90's prime, no.

Mario is someone I acknowledge in the OP as being someone McDavid didn't peak higher than but can make it up through overwhelming production since Mario played less than 1000 games.

With that said, I guarantee no one of these boards watching prime Howe or Orr is the only reason they are even in the conversation with McDavid. They've been mythologized for decades. McDavid is far more impressive.
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Terrible take on Orr.
 
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HFpapi said:
My formative hockey watching days were the early 2000's so I caught come-back Mario, 2002 Salt Lake Mario, 91 points in 67 games in 02/03 Mario and hours of YouTube highlights but admittedly didn't watch him in his 80's/90's prime, no.

Mario is someone I acknowledge in the OP as being someone McDavid didn't peak higher than but can make it up through overwhelming production since Mario played less than 1000 games.

With that said, I guarantee no one of these boards watching prime Howe or Orr is the only reason they are even in the conversation with McDavid. They've been mythologized for decades. McDavid is far more impressive.
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So I don't understand. Is your thread about the most productive player or the best? You seem confused by the two.

Also you know video cameras date back to when Orr played right?
 
toddkaz said:
So I don't understand. Is your thread about the most productive player or the best? You seem confused by the two.

Also you know video cameras date back to when Orr played right?
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Rankings have always been a blend of the two.

Yes, I know video cameras date back to Orr and Howe and it does them no favours.

I think that video tape needs to be ignored to have a subjective debate, trying to keep those players in their respective context.

Are you implying that the tape of players from the 50's-80's helps their case? I'm not so sure Howe would be able to play midget AA today if he was sucked into a time machine and spat out in 2023.
 
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HFpapi said:
Rankings have always been a blend of the two.

Yes, I know video cameras date back to Orr and Howe and it does them no favours.

I think that video tape needs to be ignored to have a subjective debate, trying to keep those players in their respective context.

Are you implying that the tape of players from the 50's-80's helps their case? I'm not so sure Howe would be able to play midget AA today if he was sucked into a time machine and spat out in 2023.
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Video taped players from the 80s? LOL, wow. You mean there is no 50+ year old posters here? I watched, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, Neely, Lemieux, Coffey, Kurri and more play heck I even saw Savard, Trottier and Bossy.

I am out of this conversation. Its just bizarre.
 
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