Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Riddum]

Youre talking peak Jagr, and still it falls short. Jagr played 82 games, had 149 pts, and was the secondary driver on that team to Lemieux who played 85% less games and had 161 pts. Lemeiuxs stats seem closer to McDavid than Jagr. McDavid has more years to prove his peak also while being the main driver

Don't forget that with Lemieux gone, Jagr went on to win 4 Art Ross in a row. Scoring also fell off a cliff during that time.

 

[TMLLFC]

Ask me in 10 years. But it seems unlikely at this rate.

 

[Score08]

Seabass would’ve met mcdavid in a bathroom stall before the game and shattered any thoughts of strolling down the ice untouched ! He’s a product of his era. He’s good, best of the current group so far, but we are light years away from comparing him to hockeys all time greats. His numbers would drop if he didn’t have the benefit of the wide open game that exists today. He would’ve been targeted, harassed, accosted, and groped from the first game of the season till the last. The time and space created by the todays rules, that were installed to promote more offense and market the new nhl, would be nonexistent . FWIW, all his contemporaries would suffer the same effects. There’s maybe 2-3 guys in the current nhl that could have a chance at successfully replicating their current stats in previous eras. A guy like Tage Thompson immediately come to mind.

 

[Strangle]

Do you like have a collection of NHL superstars with their shirts off or something.......but hey everyone has different tastes eh?

I do get your point though but it's an endless circle with zero chance of agreeing on anything definitive IMO.

I do, this isn’t the first time I’ve pulled them out either lol

This is a narrative that gets thrown around a lot and is never challenged. It’s simply accepted, but it’s untrue.

Hockey players of the past were in great shape

 

[newfy]

Yeah when people post about Howe as having longevity and dont talk like his peak is insane, they lose all credibility. Howes time in the league was lower scoring than the dead puck era. HIs best seasons, he led the league in offense by similar percentages as Lemieux did at his best. While being the toughest player in the league and a defensive stud as well.

You want to say Lemeiux peaked higher, go nuts I'm not going to sit in this thread and split hairs about it. But to talk about Lemeiux's peak as crazy and then only mention Howe as having longevity? You lose all credibility

 

[blundluntman]

Yeah when people post about Howe as having longevity and dont talk like his peak is insane, they lose all credibility. Howes time in the league was lower scoring than the dead puck era. HIs best seasons, he led the league in offense by similar percentages as Lemieux did at his best. While being the toughest player in the league and a defensive stud as well.

You want to say Lemeiux peaked higher, go nuts I'm not going to sit in this thread and split hairs about it. But to talk about Lemeiux's peak as crazy and then only mention Howe as having longevity? You lose all credibility

In some ways, Howe's peak is very similar to what people thought Lindros would become. Physically dominant and intimidating while also being an offensive dynamo. The two way part of his game is what separates him from a best case scenario Lindros though.

 

[Video Nasty]

It is so hard to compare players in a historical context. No science behind it, and it is purely hypothetical.

That being said, McDavid has to do some amazing things to get into that discussion from a historical perspective. A good start, and achievable one, might be winning the Cup and Conn Smythe this year, and beating Gretzky's single season playoff point total of 47. Would take a near 2 PPG pace right to the Cup finals to do so.

The fact that feats like these are even being considered tells us all we need to know: McDavid is easily the best player since Lemieux and is in the process of remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five.

 

[waitin425]

The fact that all of this is even being considered tells us all we need to know: McDavid is easily the best player since Lemieux and is in the process of remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five.

His career is unfinished. You may be right long term. Right now, if he finished, he doesn't match Crosby or OV IMO. Hart's and Art Ross' are great. Conn Smythe's and moments of winning on the big stage are better.

I'd take Crosby's career including his three cups, his golden goal and 2 Conn Smythes over McDavid's boatload of individual regular season awards.

McDavid needs to create historical moments in order to be ingrained into the minds of everyone. I think he will get there. But not there yet. Like I said before, that Gretzky single post season points record is the one I am eying. This year I think he could threaten that. It would be HUGE

 

[Video Nasty]

His career is unfinished. You may be right long term. Right now, if he finished, he doesn't match Crosby or OV IMO. Hart's and Art Ross' are great. Conn Smythe's and moments of winning on the big stage are better.

I'd take Crosby's career including his three cups, his golden goal and 2 Conn Smythes over McDavid's boatload of individual regular season awards.

McDavid needs to create historical moments in order to be ingrained into the minds of everyone. I think he will get there. But not there yet. Like I said before, that Gretzky single post season points record is the one I am eying. This year I think he could threaten that. It would be HUGE

McDavid will get there and it may even be in as little as two months.

His upward trajectory is far greater than Crosby’s ever was. I’ll take his career because he’s going to win the team centric hardware to be paired with the cabinet of individual hardware that will dwarf what Crosby ended up with.

Basically, he’ll do what Crosby was projected to do, and then some.

I can’t pretend that the golden goal and Conn Smythes that were going to be given regardless of what he did sway me at all.

I’ve followed Crosby’s career intently. He’s an all-time great, one of about 10 players that can be easily argued from #5-#15 all time. I’m also aware of the myth construction that’s been manufactured during his career.

McDavid will be recognized as #5 all time widespread before he enters his age 30 season. No question about it. I’m willing to say it now and not twiddle my thumbs waiting for the inevitable.

If I waited for the consensus to recognize where this was going, I would have never pondered 100 points before the start of the shortened 2020-2021 season, thought 150 was possible during a full campaign, or thought he was winning the Rocket the season directly after Matthews potted 60 goals.

And hey, if it all goes to hell with injuries, he’ll be afforded the same fantasy what if games that others are allowed, right? Hmm, well, that is a Pittsburgh thing so…

 

[Crosby2010]

20/21 as well. And the 21/22 playoffs.

21/22 regular season he had terrible puck luck. Probably would have been 140ish points if things went half right.

So he's been at his current level for 3 years now.

Hard to say with 2021 since they were only playing the Canadian teams.

All I am saying is that it isn't as if Crosby didn't have some dominant years where he got some unlucky injuries. The extra hardware he'd have if he hadn't been smacked by David Steckel and hit by a puck by his own teammate probably equates to 5 total Art Rosses in his resume.

McDavid will get there and it may even be in as little as two months.

His upward trajectory is far greater than Crosby’s ever was. I’ll take his career because he’s going to win the team centric hardware to be paired with the cabinet of individual hardware that will dwarf what Crosby ended up with.

Basically, he’ll do what Crosby was projected to do, and then some.

I can’t pretend that the golden goal and Conn Smythes that were going to be given regardless of what he did sway me at all.

I’ve followed Crosby’s career intently. He’s an all-time great, one of about 10 players that can be easily argued from #5-#15 all time. I’m also aware of the myth construction that’s been manufactured during his career.

McDavid will be recognized as #5 all time widespread before he enters his age 30 season. No question about it. I’m willing to say it now and not twiddle my thumbs waiting for the inevitable.

If I waited for the consensus to recognize where this was going, I would have never pondered 100 points before the start of the shortened 2020-2021 season, thought 150 was possible during a full campaign, or thought he was winning the Rocket the season directly after Matthews potted 60 goals.

And hey, if it all goes to hell with injuries, he’ll be afforded the same fantasy what if games that others are allowed, right? Hmm, well, that is a Pittsburgh thing so…

What is this upward trajectory you are speaking about? Do you know how hard that is going to be to not only equal 153 points next year but surpass it? And can he have the same playoff this year again? You are giving him credit for things he hasn't done yet and dismissing the playoff legend who literally only has dynasty Oilers ahead of him in the playoffs point race.

 

[Bank Shot]

Hard to say with 2021 since they were only playing the Canadian teams.

All I am saying is that it isn't as if Crosby didn't have some dominant years where he got some unlucky injuries. The extra hardware he'd have if he hadn't been smacked by David Steckel and hit by a puck by his own teammate probably equates to 5 total Art Rosses in his resume.

But McDavid actually played the games and recorded those points against the Canadian division.

I've yet to see anyone prove that the Covid divisions had any kind of dramatic skewing of players numbers. The same guys in the top 20 scoring that year generally tended to be the same guys in the top 20 the next year. And no one had an abnormally high scoring season except McDavid who has since proven that he can do it against every team, so the Canadian division numbers are validated.

Crosby has 3 seasons of what ifs. He has never had a dominant season close to the two that McDavid has. Probably Crosby would have 5? That would be the absolute max he could have obtained if everything went right. If you apply the same logic to McDavid, he could have 7 Art Rosses right now if he were healthy.

 

[Video Nasty]

Hard to say with 2021 since they were only playing the Canadian teams.

All I am saying is that it isn't as if Crosby didn't have some dominant years where he got some unlucky injuries. The extra hardware he'd have if he hadn't been smacked by David Steckel and hit by a puck by his own teammate probably equates to 5 total Art Rosses in his resume.



What is this upward trajectory you are speaking about? Do you know how hard that is going to be to not only equal 153 points next year but surpass it? And can he have the same playoff this year again? You are giving him credit for things he hasn't done yet and dismissing the playoff legend who literally only has dynasty Oilers ahead of him in the playoffs point race.

I’m giving McDavid the credit that he deserves because he has played at a level higher than Crosby for longer. Even in a losing effort, he performed at a level higher than Crosby ever did in any postseason.

 

[Riddum]

His career is unfinished. You may be right long term. Right now, if he finished, he doesn't match Crosby or OV IMO. Hart's and Art Ross' are great. Conn Smythe's and moments of winning on the big stage are better.

I'd take Crosby's career including his three cups, his golden goal and 2 Conn Smythes over McDavid's boatload of individual regular season awards.

McDavid needs to create historical moments in order to be ingrained into the minds of everyone. I think he will get there. But not there yet. Like I said before, that Gretzky single post season points record is the one I am eying. This year I think he could threaten that. It would be HUGE

Winning multiple Art Ross trophies demonstrates domination.

McDavid has 5 Art Ross in the last 7 seasons... Including an injury season. Pure domination unseen since Jagr won 5 Art Ross in 7 seasons himself, over 20 years ago.

Crosby and Ovi, although all time greats, can never be compared to guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr.

-Crosby has 2 Art Ross in 18 seasons (he should have a couple more)
-Ovi has 1 in 18 (most dominant goal scorer of all times but to be in the discussion, he would have needed a few more himself).

Cup and Conn Smythe or not, McDavid is a far superior player to both.

I'm a Pens fan but McDavid's skillset is pretty much unrivalled. Too bad his GMs weren't very good at building teams.

 

[authentic]

But McDavid actually played the games and recorded those points against the Canadian division.

I've yet to see anyone prove that the Covid divisions had any kind of dramatic skewing of players numbers. The same guys in the top 20 scoring that year generally tended to be the same guys in the top 20 the next year. And no one had an abnormally high scoring season except McDavid who has since proven that he can do it against every team, so the Canadian division numbers are validated.

Crosby has 3 seasons of what ifs. He has never had a dominant season close to the two that McDavid has. Probably Crosby would have 5? That would be the absolute max he could have obtained if everything went right. If you apply the same logic to McDavid, he could have 7 Art Rosses right now if he were healthy.

How do you figure 5 would've been his absolute max? He would've won the 3 from 2011-13, and could've won in 2007-08 (.01 points per game behind Ovechkin), 2014-15 (led in points per game with 77 games played), and even in 2016-17 he was 11 points away from McDavid with 7 less games played. The 2011-13 ones were a given, so I think you meant to say it would've been 5 at the least, his max would've been about 8.

 

[Sentinel]

McDavid's peak is below's Yzerman's in points and Ovechkin in goals. Just sayin'.

 

[psycat]

And where would that put someone like Kucherov? Is he 3rd player of all time? I mean he is still pretty close for regular season peak and got 2 Smythe worthy cup runs.

Find it weird how McDavid is the only player that get this treatment of how the league is suddenly much better and his accomplishments should have more weight than that of previous stars.

If McDavid is the second best of all time, despite nothing really pointing towards it, then surely Lidström must be the best defenceman of all time or is it Hedman/Makar?

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid's peak is below's Yzerman's in points and Ovechkin in goals. Just sayin'.

Yzermans peak season isn't even on the same tier as McDavid the last 3 years and literally no one is saying that McDavid is a better goal scorer so why say this?

 

[Toby91ca]

Yzermans peak season isn't even on the same tier as McDavid the last 3 years and literally no one is saying that McDavid is a better goal scorer so why say this?

Yeah, kind of weird...I don't generally think of peak as a single year, but if people want to do that, Yzerman scored 155 points in a year where 4 people scored 150pts or more and he trailed in the scoring race by 44 points. While this past season was a higher scoring the year than any in a very long time, it still wasn't as high scoring as 88/89. McDavid's 153 points was good to lead the scoring race by 25 points....big difference.

It really doesn't matter though....it's highly likely that McDavid outproduces Yzerman in pure numbers without even considering eras anyway.

 

[guzzy]

There is no way he surpasses Mario. He is already behind him in every stat category.

 

[Randyne]

could've won in 2007-08 (.01 points per game behind Ovechkin)

44% points were added by Malkin from second line. Imagine if that second line was in Ovi team => Instant Caps dynasty and multiple 70+ goals 130+ points seasons in dead puck era.
Ovi outpaced SidMakin duo 3 years in a row, not only Sid. Peak Ovi would easily outpace McDrai duo too because Sid=McDavid and Malkin>Drai who added 47% points to McDavid

 

[Sentinel]

Yzermans peak season isn't even on the same tier as McDavid the last 3 years and literally no one is saying that McDavid is a better goal scorer so why say this?

155 > 153. "Not in the same tier"??

Literally, people are saying McDavid is only second to Gretzky. Have you even read this thread?

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah, kind of weird...I don't generally think of peak as a single year, but if people want to do that, Yzerman scored 155 points in a year where 4 people scored 150pts or more and he trailed in the scoring race by 44 points. While this past season was a higher scoring the year than any in a very long time, it still wasn't as high scoring as 88/89. McDavid's 153 points was good to lead the scoring race by 25 points....big difference.

It really doesn't matter though....it's highly likely that McDavid outproduces Yzerman in pure numbers without even considering eras anyway.

If Gretzky played this season, McDavid would be behind him just as much as Yzerman. And Gretzky would create another Bernie Nicholls out of whoever he was playing with.

And Yzerman did not have Draisaitl on his team either.

So, yes, Yzerman's peak is very much in the same tier as McDavid's.

 

[Darren McCord]

44% points were added by Malkin from second line. Imagine if that second line was in Ovi team => Instant Caps dynasty and multiple 70+ goals 130+ points seasons in dead puck era.

lol what.

You realize Ovi had 3 other ppg players on his team? Imagine if Crosby had linemates who put up more than 30-40pts back then

 

[Video Nasty]

For me, one more Art Ross and I will clearly put him above Jagr. For now, McDavid is slightly above, at best.

Okay, so slightly above right now for you and one year from now, clearly above.

It’s only going to take about 3-4 more seasons before he’s considered a consensus top 5 ever, mark my words.

Don't forget that with Lemieux gone, Jagr went on to win 4 Art Ross in a row. Scoring also fell off a cliff during that time.

While true that he won 3 in a row without him, let’s not forget he was totally listless in the first half of 2000-2001 when he was disinterested and checked out with 37 points in 36 games before Mario came back and made him care.

End result is 4 straight Art Rosses of course, but it clearly doesn’t happen without Mario’s influence (one could argue this for Jagr’s development as a player too).

 

[Riddum]

Okay, so slightly above right now for you and one year from now, clearly above.

It’s only going to take about 3-4 more seasons before he’s considered a consensus top 5 ever, mark my words.



While true that he won 3 in a row without him, let’s not forget he was totally listless in the first half of 2000-2001 when he was disinterested and checked out with 37 points in 36 games before Mario came back and made him care.

End result is 4 straight Art Rosses of course, but it clearly doesn’t happen without Mario’s influence (one could argue this for Jagr’s development as a player too).

I like how you dismiss Jagr's 5th Art Ross win and 4th of that streak, attributing it Lemieux's comeback, while ignoring that Jagr's very first Art Ross ever, in 1994-1995, was also won without Lemieux. So 4.5 of his 5 Art Ross season were without Lemieux.

And I said slightly above Jagr at best right now because, they both have 5 wins in 7 seasons. Jagr is no spring chicken, let's not forget that he's sitting at #2 all times in points.