Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[snag]

McDavid is fast as f***. But even the talk of players in the 80’s/90’s being ‘out of shape’ is bullshit.

Check out how jacked Pavel Bure was.

These hockey players today are not in better shape than the elites of yesterday.

Gretzky could play 40 minutes a night

Tyson was a product of 80’s nutrition and fitness too

That was all that Ivan Drago shit from the Red Army

 

[Empoleon8771]

If he plays the games, he’ll be closing in on 1300 points early on during his age 30 season (150, 135, 135 the next 3 seasons as an example).

Pretty safe bet at this point.

At Crosby's age, Crosby dropped from 104 points in 80 games to 84 points in 77 games. Crosby has not had a PPG after age 26 that has equaled his age 26 season. I don't think it's a safe bet at all to assume he'll be hitting those numbers again.

There have been very few players who have maintained their early to mid 20s production in their late 20s. Not even Gretzky and Lemieux did that. Gretzky hit 183 points in his age 26 season, he only had 2 seasons beyond that of hitting 150 points (168 in 88-89 and 163 in 90-91).

You can't really say McD is better than or worse than prime Mario, they're both incredible.

But in the end we can say McD has the better career as long as his durability continues.

You can kind of say the same thing WRT Bobby Orr.

No, I can incredibly confidently say that McDavid was worse than prime Mario

 

[GeeoffBrown]

Who the hell puts Jagr as #2 all time?

1 is Gretzky, 2 is Lemieux, 3 is Orr and 4 is Howe. Most people I've seen don't even consider Jagr a serious challenger for #5.

I was talking about points. I give McDavid a roughly 30%* chance of finishing #2 all time in points. Currently held by Jagr.

*percentage made up

 

[Empoleon8771]

I was talking about points. I give McDavid a roughly 30%* chance of finishing #2 all time in points. Currently held by Jagr.

*percentage made up

Ah yeah sorry that was my mistake, misread what you said.

 

[Video Nasty]

At Crosby's age, Crosby dropped from 104 points in 80 games to 84 points in 77 games. Crosby has not had a PPG after age 26 that has equaled his age 26 season. I don't think it's a safe bet at all to assume he'll be hitting those numbers again.

There have been very few players who have maintained their early to mid 20s production in their late 20s. Not even Gretzky and Lemieux did that. Gretzky hit 183 points in his age 26 season, he only had 2 seasons beyond that of hitting 150 points (168 in 88-89 and 163 in 90-91).



No, I can incredibly confidently say that McDavid was worse than prime Mario

Crosby is mortal compared to McDavid. What he couldn’t do after age 26 is irrelevant to McDavid, other than highlighting just how large a gap there is between the two players.

This forum at large also never thought anything over even 130 points was possible, so I’ll trust my read on how I’m watching McDavid’s career play out.

I think he can do 70 goals/160 points next season, but I dialed back to 150 just for the sake of that post.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Crosby is mortal compared to McDavid.

This forum at large also never thought anything over even 130 points was possible, so I’ll trust my read on how I’m watching McDavid’s career play out.

Same applies to Gretzky and Lemieux, though. I already posted Gretzky's numbers, but Lemieux also never matched his 27 year old season again.

Could McDavid maintain that production level? Sure, but it would be completely unprecedented for him to do that. Only 4 of the last 24 Art Ross winners were over the age of 28 (Forsberg and H Sedin at 29, D Sedin at 30 and St. Louis at 37), and over half of them were under 26. Offensive players peak roughly from their age 23-27 seasons, and McDavid is going to be 27 next year.

 

[Mitts]

Lmfao he will never surpass Lemieux.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

Ah yeah sorry that was my mistake, misread what you said.

I think that it would be nearly impossible to come up with a consensus on who the #2 player of all time is LOL. Some people even think Gretzky is #2.

But points are a number that is not debatable and surely Connor will finish with a lot of them.

 

[Video Nasty]

Same applies to Gretzky and Lemieux, though. I already posted Gretzky's numbers, but Lemieux also never matched his 27 year old season again.

Could McDavid maintain that production level? Sure, but it would be completely unprecedented for him to do that. Only 4 of the last 24 Art Ross winners were over the age of 28 (Forsberg and H Sedin at 29, D Sedin at 30 and St. Louis at 37), and over half of them were under 25.

McDavid probably stretches way more than Mario did, so I’m not too worried about him replicating what he did at age 26 in his age 27 season.

Like I’ve said at other times, McDavid is redefining what we thought possible from a phenom in today’s game. If the Sedins can win Art Rosses a 29 and 30 with Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin in the league, there’s zero reason McDavid can’t.

It’s not that hard to imagine him winning as many Art Rosses as Gretzky.

This is why he’ll shatter the Big Four and remold it into a new Big Five.

 

[authentic]

McDavid probably stretches way more than Mario did, so I’m not too worried about him replicating what he did at age 26 in his age 27 season.

Like I’ve said at other times, McDavid is redefining what we thought possible from a phenom in today’s game. If the Sedins can win Art Rosses a 29 and 30 with Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin in the league, there’s zero reason McDavid can’t.

It’s not that hard to imagine him winning as many Art Rosses as Gretzky.

This is why he’ll shatter the Big Four and remold it into a new Big Five.

But what if Connor Bedard learns how to skate really fast in the next few seasons

No I pretty much agree with you here, I don't think he's being supplanted as the league's best offensive player until atleast 30 barring a serious fluke injury or something. His modern day training and dedication to being the best, + lack of a lingering injury at this point of his career probably sets up a path for him to be the most dominant late 20s hockey player of all-time. I would be much more surprised to see his play drop drastically due to "aging" in the next few seasons than I would be to see him continue to dominate. I just don't see which of his skills or stamina people expect to fall off a cliff anytime soon, unless like I said some serious injury where to occur.

 

[McVespa99]

Lmfao he will never surpass Lemieux.

Well its settled then. He should just retire because someone that calls himself "Mitts" says its all futile.

 

[Hockeyholic]

McDavid has the speed on Mario. Otherwise....Lemieux has him beat everywhere else. Lemieux was scoring goals with guys climbing on his back. Frequently made defenceman like Bourque look like amateurs. McDavid is not playing against all time great D like Lemieux was.

Just feels like prisoner of the moment type thing. I'm not prepared to say he has surpassed Crosby or Ovechkin. If he wins at least two CS trophies, he will surpass them.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Hey,

I get you man. You grew up with Crosby. Nothing wrong in backing up your boy. All good. I'm just stating facts man. Even some of the Crosby fans on HF have realized its over. You don't see them anymore coming to Crosby's defense. No point. No one's hating on Sid the Kid. He has been surpassed. History isn't stupid. McDavids place has been cemented already as a top 5 talent of all time. If he wins a cup, then he stands alone amongst the immortals numbered 99 and 66. The trifecta is only a cup away. Whether its this year or next. McDavid has that killer instinct. He wants his cup.

His highlights will remain decades after he is retired. Instead of hanging on to some petty argument, let it go man. Enjoy this prodigious talent.

Top five talent is different than top five player of all time.

What about Howe? He seems to be forgotten sometimes.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I get you man. You grew up with Crosby. Nothing wrong in backing up your boy. All good. I'm just stating facts man. Even some of the Crosby fans on HF have realized its over. You don't see them anymore coming to Crosby's defense. No point.

This is especially pandering coming from an not-subtle-about-it Oilers fan whose user name is McFlash97.

If you’re going to just flat out say that the only possible way a poster can feel a certain way is that they’re irreparably biased, I’d recommend a little irony training.

 

[McFlash97]

McDavid has the speed on Mario. Otherwise....Lemieux has him beat everywhere else. Lemieux was scoring goals with guys climbing on his back. Frequently made defenceman like Bourque look like amateurs. McDavid is not playing against all time great D like Lemieux was.

Just feels like prisoner of the moment type thing. I'm not prepared to say he has surpassed Crosby or Ovechkin. If he wins at least two CS trophies, he will surpass them.

Just because Mario has a couple of highlights where he blows by overrated Bourque and uses his reach to get around goalies and players doesn't make him a better stick handler then the fastest stick handler of all time. Even Mario cant compare to McDavids highlights.

Mario was ...key word "was" the most dynamic exciting highlight machine of all time... until this guy named McDavid decided to enter the building. Now Mario is #2. Sorry guy.

 

[Easternbull]

How can you even discuss this when this guy has won absolutely NOTHING!! NOTHING!!

Lets se some rings instead of scoring titles, before you even start this discussion.

 

[Video Nasty]

How can you even discuss this when this guy has won absolutely NOTHING!! NOTHING!!

Lets se some rings instead of scoring titles, before you even start this discussion.

Because some humans are more nuanced than “duh ring good, no ring bad”.

 

[Blitzkrug]

2nd best player statistically maybe but i think he's already the best pure athlete to ever play the game,

 

[McFlash97]

This is especially pandering coming from an not-subtle-about-it Oilers fan whose user name is McFlash97.

If you’re going to just flat out say that the only possible way a poster can feel a certain way is that they’re irreparably biased, I’d recommend a little irony training.

Nothing wrong with being biased. I never attacked anybody. Heck as my name indicates I'm totally biased towards McDavid. Just relaying proven stats. However if one feels its not enough all the power to them at the end of the day everyone's opinion matters because......

We're living in McDavids world....

 

[Crosby2010]

If anyone is forgetting about the first 7 seasons of Crosby’s career, it’s you. The myth of his fabled two way play didn’t come along for another two seasons and was designed to explain away why he lost a step and finished behind Benn, Tavares, and Kane in scoring races at ages 27 and 28.

Through 7 seasons, it wasn’t even. Through 8 seasons, the gulf has widened and there’s nothing in sight that is going to stop that chasm from increasing.

Crosby had 1 Hart, 1 additional finalist nomination, 0 extra top 5 nods, 1 Pearson/Lindsays, 1 Art Ross, 1 extra top 2 scoring finish that he was tied for, was top 2 in PPG 5 times (he missed 130 games during 3 of those occasions) and had a Rocket through 7 seasons.

McDavid had 2 Harts, 1 additional finalist nomination, 2 additional top 5 nods, 3 Pearson/Lindsays, 4 Art Rosses, 2 extra top 2 scoring finishes, and was top 2 PPG for 6 consecutive seasons (while playing all but 13 games during that stretch) through 7 seasons.

McDavid just made the comparison through 8 seasons an absolute joke and it’s only going to get worse, particularly if the Oilers win the Cup and he collects the Conn Smythe this postseason.

Hey,

I get you man. You grew up with Crosby. Nothing wrong in backing up your boy. All good. I'm just stating facts man. Even some of the Crosby fans on HF have realized its over. You don't see them anymore coming to Crosby's defense. No point. No one's hating on Sid the Kid. He has been surpassed. History isn't stupid. McDavids place has been cemented already as a top 5 talent of all time. If he wins a cup, then he stands alone amongst the immortals numbered 99 and 66. The trifecta is only a cup away. Whether its this year or next. McDavid has that killer instinct. He wants his cup.

His highlights will remain decades after he is retired. Instead of hanging on to some petty argument, let it go man. Enjoy this prodigious talent.

Guys it isn't bias at all. We are talking about McDavid in a way that we have forgotten that it was just one year ago that he barely won the Art Ross and lost the Hart and Pearson to Matthews. It literally came down to 5 games left in the season before we knew for sure that either one of Huberdeau or Gaudreau were going to win the Art Ross. Honestly, it was actually that close. He also lost the Art Ross to his teammate in 2020, he got beat noticeably by Kucherov in 2019. He had a heck of a year in 2023, and if he keeps having those seasons regularly then I hear you, we are going to have to have some serious discussions as to where he ends up in respect to Lemieux. But if we are honest with ourselves even this big of a year was similar more to Jagr in 1996 than Lemieux in 1996. I don't think Mario's best year is 1996, it might be his 4th or 5th best, and yet McDavid hasn't reached that level yet, let alone had the postseason Mario had.

For instance, PPG:
Mario 1996 - 2.30
McDavid 2023 - 1.86
Jagr 1996 - 1.82

You dig? This is one of those things where the overrating of McDavid forces us to have to downgrade him. No one wants to do this, we all love watching McDavid play. But it gets stupid when those of us who saw Mario and Gretzky play year after year hear that McDavid is their equal and it is all but established that he'll surpass Mario (sorry Gordie Howe I guess you get thrown under the bus in this instance as well). Because Gretzky had years that were significantly better than McDavid's best for about a decade. Mario would win scoring titles playing 60-65 games. McDavid is special, could very well make it a "big 5" when all is said and done, but let's not get nuts. Crosby does have 1500 career points and 201 playoff points. That's going to be a career that will be tough to surpass as well. And I agree he is at least on pace for it, but so what? There is so much that can happen that we don't know yet.

Crosby being in my avatar really has nothing to do with being a fanboy. I love both players. I just saw them both at the same time. It wasn't until this year where McDavid hit the next level that Crosby didn't hit. Up until then I will re-iterate, they were pretty darn close in their first 7 years. You are looking at hardware and not taking other things into context. Crosby had two seasons in where he was leading the NHL in points when he got injured (2008, 2011). In 2011 it wasn't even close either. His season was reminiscent of McDavid's this year, except it was only in 41 games. But he was mopping up the floor with the rest of the league. Had a 25 game point streak that season. Then there's 2012 where he has the best PPG in the NHL but only played 22 games. Who knows what happens. Even in Year 8 he is running away with the scoring race in the shortened season before the freak injury where he gets hit with the puck. He still nearly wins the Art Ross despite missing 25% of the season. 2014 is where he was healthy and did a lot better than everyone else in a full season in a lower scoring environment. So in reality it really came down to injuries that stopped Crosby from having more than 2 Art Rosses. If he had 5 it wouldn't have shocked anyone.

You are asking why he didn't win more of that after 2014. Well, it's hard! He's 27 at the time and even if you look at the greatest offensive players of all-time they all had their best offensive seasons 27 and prior. Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, all did this. Despite all of that, his "down" years look like this:

2015 - 3rd in scoring, 5th in Hart voting
2016 - 3rd in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting
2017 - 2nd in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting
2019 - 5th in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting, 4th in Selke voting

By his 4th or 5th season at most it was obvious he wasn't going to challenge Gretzky and Lemieux. So basically when you look at it that way he was competing against those guys more or less. He wasn't them, but who is? That's why he couldn't string together a bunch of Art Rosses after 27, few can.

Even Jagr, he had that blip year in 2006 where he is 33, a sort of rejuvenation for him, but his offense declined after 28 years old. And he won 5 Art Rosses too. This is why I wouldn't expect McDavid to rack up 153 points again next year and why I wouldn't expect him to have this be his new norm. I would call it his peak, how long it lasts we'll see. But you still can't put his career higher than a guy who still had a 100 point year when he was 31, and then if not for missed time last year has one at 34 years old. And if not for a slump at the end of the year has one when he's 35. You have to factor in longevity here too. Can McDavid do what Crosby is doing in 10 years at the same age? We'll see. But again, few have. Crosby is though. Even just a year ago he was peeling through the 1st round of the playoffs before he got hurt and the team fell flat after that.

Sorry, as for now the career value is still very easily Crosby > McDavid. You want to say peak belongs to McDavid then that's fine. Yzerman's best year is probably better than anything Crosby did, but Crosby is better than Yzerman (and no I am not suggesting Yzerman and McDavid had the same career 8 years in)

 

[Video Nasty]

Guys it isn't bias at all. We are talking about McDavid in a way that we have forgotten that it was just one year ago that he barely won the Art Ross and lost the Hart and Pearson to Matthews. It literally came down to 5 games left in the season before we knew for sure that either one of Huberdeau or Gaudreau were going to win the Art Ross. Honestly, it was actually that close. He also lost the Art Ross to his teammate in 2020, he got beat noticeably by Kucherov in 2019. He had a heck of a year in 2023, and if he keeps having those seasons regularly then I hear you, we are going to have to have some serious discussions as to where he ends up in respect to Lemieux. But if we are honest with ourselves even this big of a year was similar more to Jagr in 1996 than Lemieux in 1996. I don't think Mario's best year is 1996, it might be his 4th or 5th best, and yet McDavid hasn't reached that level yet, let alone had the postseason Mario had.

For instance, PPG:
Mario 1996 - 2.30
McDavid 2023 - 1.86
Jagr 1996 - 1.82

You dig? This is one of those things where the overrating of McDavid forces us to have to downgrade him. No one wants to do this, we all love watching McDavid play. But it gets stupid when those of us who saw Mario and Gretzky play year after year hear that McDavid is their equal and it is all but established that he'll surpass Mario (sorry Gordie Howe I guess you get thrown under the bus in this instance as well). Because Gretzky had years that were significantly better than McDavid's best for about a decade. Mario would win scoring titles playing 60-65 games. McDavid is special, could very well make it a "big 5" when all is said and done, but let's not get nuts. Crosby does have 1500 career points and 201 playoff points. That's going to be a career that will be tough to surpass as well. And I agree he is at least on pace for it, but so what? There is so much that can happen that we don't know yet.

Crosby being in my avatar really has nothing to do with being a fanboy. I love both players. I just saw them both at the same time. It wasn't until this year where McDavid hit the next level that Crosby didn't hit. Up until then I will re-iterate, they were pretty darn close in their first 7 years. You are looking at hardware and not taking other things into context. Crosby had two seasons in where he was leading the NHL in points when he got injured (2008, 2011). In 2011 it wasn't even close either. His season was reminiscent of McDavid's this year, except it was only in 41 games. But he was mopping up the floor with the rest of the league. Had a 25 game point streak that season. Then there's 2012 where he has the best PPG in the NHL but only played 22 games. Who knows what happens. Even in Year 8 he is running away with the scoring race in the shortened season before the freak injury where he gets hit with the puck. He still nearly wins the Art Ross despite missing 25% of the season. 2014 is where he was healthy and did a lot better than everyone else in a full season in a lower scoring environment. So in reality it really came down to injuries that stopped Crosby from having more than 2 Art Rosses. If he had 5 it wouldn't have shocked anyone.

You are asking why he didn't win more of that after 2014. Well, it's hard! He's 27 at the time and even if you look at the greatest offensive players of all-time they all had their best offensive seasons 27 and prior. Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, all did this. Despite all of that, his "down" years look like this:

2015 - 3rd in scoring, 5th in Hart voting
2016 - 3rd in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting
2017 - 2nd in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting
2019 - 5th in scoring, 2nd in Hart voting, 4th in Selke voting

By his 4th or 5th season at most it was obvious he wasn't going to challenge Gretzky and Lemieux. So basically when you look at it that way he was competing against those guys more or less. He wasn't them, but who is? That's why he couldn't string together a bunch of Art Rosses after 27, few can.

Even Jagr, he had that blip year in 2006 where he is 33, a sort of rejuvenation for him, but his offense declined after 28 years old. And he won 5 Art Rosses too. This is why I wouldn't expect McDavid to rack up 153 points again next year and why I wouldn't expect him to have this be his new norm. I would call it his peak, how long it lasts we'll see. But you still can't put his career higher than a guy who still had a 100 point year when he was 31, and then if not for missed time last year has one at 34 years old. And if not for a slump at the end of the year has one when he's 35. You have to factor in longevity here too. Can McDavid do what Crosby is doing in 10 years at the same age? We'll see. But again, few have. Crosby is though. Even just a year ago he was peeling through the 1st round of the playoffs before he got hurt and the team fell flat after that.

Sorry, as for now the career value is still very easily Crosby > McDavid. You want to say peak belongs to McDavid then that's fine. Yzerman's best year is probably better than anything Crosby did, but Crosby is better than Yzerman (and no I am not suggesting Yzerman and McDavid had the same career 8 years in)

You know, it’s funny. Certain players like Gretzky and McDavid never get the “what if boo boo he was injured and not well” defenses that Lemieux and Crosby always get.

You plead for context, but ignore that McDavid had a major knee injury in the last game of the 2018-2019 season that he was advised to undergo major reconstructive surgery after a second opinion that he did not go through with because it would have caused him to miss the entire 2019-2020 season. He let it naturally heal and played the season, of which he also missed 7 games of it. You don’t think that had some effect?

Tying back into 2018-2019 for a moment. He played 4 fewer games than Kucherov and missed half of his final game due to the aforementioned injury. So he had 12 less points while playing 4.5 less games on a team that scored nearly a hundred goals fewer than the 62 win Lightning. He factored in on 50% of the Oilers total goals while Kucherov factored in on 39% of the Lightning’s total goals? You consider that getting beat noticeably?

I never bring up either of these points because I despise playing the what if fantasy land game, but I will when someone talks about not biased and providing context for one player versus another.

Crosby lost scoring races to Benn, Tavares, and Kane at ages 27 and 28 while healthy. McDavid will likely not lose either of the next two scoring races and if he somehow does, it’s not going to be to players that are the modern day equivalents of Benn and Tavares.

McDavid’s great “failures” so far are losing a scoring race to an awesome player like Kucherov who was on an all-time great regular season team and another playing through rehab to his amazing teammate who played 7 more games. Barely even worth mentioning unless someone tries to ding him for it. McDavid has also routinely outscored both of his “defeats” since. He just annihilated Kucherov by 40 points.

Few here think he is better than Gretzky and Lemieux.

But he’s well on track to remolding the Big Four into a Big Five. Plenty of people will take him over anyone except Gretzky if he remains healthy, fills up his trophy cabinet further, and wins the inevitable Cups because like Gretzky, many will value seeing a fairly healthy (though both still suffered major scares themselves that few talk about) career played out fully rather than what if Lemieux and Orr played more.

Some of the biggest evidence that McDavid is well on his way is that some people are expecting anything less than him winning every trophy year in and year out like Gretzky as a disappointment.

When that happens, you know the player being discussed is special like few players ever have been.

 

[alphahelix]

Just because Mario has a couple of highlights where he blows by overrated Bourque and uses his reach to get around goalies and players doesn't make him a better stick handler then the fastest stick handler of all time. Even Mario cant compare to McDavids highlights.

Mario was ...key word "was" the most dynamic exciting highlight machine of all time... until this guy named McDavid decided to enter the building. Now Mario is #2. Sorry guy.

WTF? Bourque is not overrated. But yeah, a couple highlights when they likely played against each other 100+ times means less than nothing. Bourque probably danced Lemieux a couple times too. So what? Bourque defended Lemieux pretty well most of the time, because he Was outstanding. McDavid has danced pretty much every 1D in the NHL at this point regardless of how good they are. Nobody is infallible.

 

[JeffroTullison]

eye test mcdavid is #1

 

[Tralfamadore]

2nd best player at even strength this season sure

 

[independent observer]

Crosby is mortal compared to McDavid. What he couldn’t do after age 26 is irrelevant to McDavid, other than highlighting just how large a gap there is between the two players.

This forum at large also never thought anything over even 130 points was possible, so I’ll trust my read on how I’m watching McDavid’s career play out.

I think he can do 70 goals/160 points next season, but I dialed back to 150 just for the sake of that post.

Crosby brain injuries not only robbed prime years but also had a lasting effect on his career as he has never been the same player.

However, it is also fair to argue that Crosby has and would never have reached McDavids level. And here is why:

The reason why is because when McDavid was a child his parents enrolled him in a special trial program run by Nvidia‘s R&D unit called ‚sports high performance lab‘.

They impanted a high performance AI chip into his brain. That is why he is able to process and execute video game like moves at full speed.