Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[beowulf]

For me nobody tops Mario Lemieux. What he did even with a chronic back condition beating cancer. Amazing.

 

[Bradely]

For me nobody tops Mario Lemieux. What he did even with a chronic back condition beating cancer. Amazing.

IMO Orr, Lemieux and 99 are and will remain as the best players of all time! But 97 is the first player in recent year to join the dance!

 

[Johnny Tomala]

I know that I'm in minority but for me peak Yzerman and Sakic were better than Crosby. Peak McDavid is of course better too.

 

[Crosby2010]

You know, it’s funny. Certain players like Gretzky and McDavid never get the “what if boo boo he was injured and not well” defenses that Lemieux and Crosby always get.

You plead for context, but ignore that McDavid had a major knee injury in the last game of the 2018-2019 season that he was advised to undergo major reconstructive surgery after a second opinion that he did not go through with because it would have caused him to miss the entire 2019-2020 season. He let it naturally heal and played the season, of which he also missed 7 games of it. You don’t think that had some effect?

Tying back into 2018-2019 for a moment. He played 4 fewer games than Kucherov and missed half of his final game due to the aforementioned injury. So he had 12 less points while playing 4.5 less games on a team that scored nearly a hundred goals fewer than the 62 win Lightning. He factored in on 50% of the Oilers total goals while Kucherov factored in on 39% of the Lightning’s total goals? You consider that getting beat noticeably?

I never bring up either of these points because I despise playing the what if fantasy land game, but I will when someone talks about not biased and providing context for one player versus another.

Crosby lost scoring races to Benn, Tavares, and Kane at ages 27 and 28 while healthy. McDavid will likely not lose either of the next two scoring races and if he somehow does, it’s not going to be to players that are the modern day equivalents of Benn and Tavares.

McDavid’s great “failures” so far are losing a scoring race to an awesome player like Kucherov who was on an all-time great regular season team and another playing through rehab to his amazing teammate who played 7 more games. Barely even worth mentioning unless someone tries to ding him for it. McDavid has also routinely outscored both of his “defeats” since. He just annihilated Kucherov by 40 points.

Few here think he is better than Gretzky and Lemieux.

But he’s well on track to remolding the Big Four into a Big Five. Plenty of people will take him over anyone except Gretzky if he remains healthy, fills up his trophy cabinet further, and wins the inevitable Cups because like Gretzky, many will value seeing a fairly healthy (though both still suffered major scares themselves that few talk about) career played out fully rather than what if Lemieux and Orr played more.

Some of the biggest evidence that McDavid is well on his way is that some people are expecting anything less than him winning every trophy year in and year out like Gretzky as a disappointment.

When that happens, you know the player being discussed is special like few players ever have been.

I'd rather talk about his career right now rather than what might happen. No one doubts he's a great player. But in reality it was only this year where he hit a level that Crosby wasn't hitting. Acting as if this sort of season was normal for him isn't accurate. We'll see if he can maintain it. It took him until his 8th season to do it though. Gretzky in his 8th season had a 183 point year and never had that high of a season again (1988 he does if he plays all the games). It's hard. The season you saw was incredible and it will hardly be easy for him to do that again.

 

[psycat]

Well its settled then. He should just retire because someone that calls himself "Mitts" says its all futile.

I mean if his, only, goal with playing hockey is passing Lemieux for peak I think he should retire. Still he will have a strong case to be ranked above him for career when all is said and done and it's within realms of possibility he will make it a concensus big 5, not shabby.

Of course in reality it's more like Gretzky in his own tier and then the 3 trailing quite far behind and McDavid could join that group.

Sidenote but find it pretty weird that it's only forwards who get's this treatment of "league now is better than ever so his accomplishments should be valued way higher than that of greats of the past". Meanwhile someone like Orr or Harvey are like untouchables despite playing in a Canadian only league with lower parity than the 80s(and certainly 90s, early 2000s).

If McDavid has a case for greatest of all time, he doesn't whatsoever in my mind, then surely Lidström(or maybe Bourque) must be the greatest defenceman of all time based on the same parameters.

 

[NoMessi]

The pure homerism in this post, McDavid is approaching Crosby. But he’s still the inferior player

McDavid have surpassed Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin already. Thats not homerism. Im a Penguins fan, a big supporter of the former era big three.

 

[NoMessi]

76 in 43 games?

You know McDavid is currently outscoring that pace right?

That was in the middle of the dead puck era, this year is not.
Im fully convinced Mcdavid is the best thing we have seen since Mario, and have far surpassed Crosby (and others from that era) but he wont touch Lemieux, not now not ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

I'd rather talk about his career right now rather than what might happen. No one doubts he's a great player. But in reality it was only this year where he hit a level that Crosby wasn't hitting. Acting as if this sort of season was normal for him isn't accurate. We'll see if he can maintain it. It took him until his 8th season to do it though. Gretzky in his 8th season had a 183 point year and never had that high of a season again (1988 he does if he plays all the games). It's hard. The season you saw was incredible and it will hardly be easy for him to do that again.

Okay, we’ve talked about him all season in other threads. I don’t recall you chiming in much, if at all. By the way, this season validated his 2020-2021 campaign, so no, this isn’t the first time.

We can regroup next season when we’re discussing the 3 time Hart, 4 time Lindsay, 5 time Art Ross winning maybe even Conn Smythe champion’s push for 1000 career points by the end of his age 27 season.

I’ll leave you again with this. By the time McDavid enters his age 30 season, he will very firmly be the consensus #5 all-time. Anything he does past that with longevity will only help his case for some to argue him higher because two of the four members played roughly half careers and some will value what McDavid will likely do over a full career arc in what is the new current day more.

 

[Crosby2010]

Okay, we’ve talked about him all season in other threads. I don’t recall you chiming in much, if at all. By the way, this season validated his 2020-2021 campaign, so no, this isn’t the first time.

We can regroup next season when we’re discussing the 3 time Hart, 4 time Lindsay, 5 time Art Ross winning maybe even Conn Smythe champion’s push for 1000 career points by the end of his age 27 season.

I’ll leave you again with this. By the time McDavid enters his age 30 season, he will very firmly be the consensus #5 all-time. Anything he does past that with longevity will only help his case for some to argue him higher because two of the four members played roughly half careers and some will value what McDavid will likely do over a full career arc in what is the new current day more.

You are making more sense now. Come back in 4 years, see how his longevity is. That we don't know yet. We know Crosby's longevity. It is still going strong. But you're giving him even a Conn Smythe before he gets one. It wasn't up until last year that he was just a mediocre playoff performer. He needs more than what he's done to be top 5 all-time. If he retires tomorrow he will not be top 5. 5 years he might, we'll see.

This reminds me of all of the Mahomes hype as if it is just a given he is going to equal Brady's career. Which he won't. It's just very difficult to do.

 

[Matty Sundin]

He’s definitely the best player I seen in my lifetime. I was either too young or not even born yet for the prime Lemieux and Gretzky years.

 

[independent observer]

He’s definitely the best player I seen in my lifetime. I was either too young or not even born yet for the prime Lemieux and Gretzky years.

What about the other Connor…?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

On the History board, I have a thread where I look at which players have played the most games at a league-leading point per game pace.

Here's how McDavid stacks up (1927 to 2023):

Player	1st
Wayne Gretzky	872​
Gordie Howe	567​
Mario Lemieux	452​
Connor McDavid	408​
Phil Esposito	406​
Sidney Crosby	339​
Stan Mikita	324​
Bill Cowley	274​
Guy Lafleur	234​
Alex Ovechkin	233​
Jean Beliveau	227​
Jaromir Jagr	221​
Elmer Lach	164​
Sweeney Schriner	164​
Bill Cook	164​
Max Bentley	159​
Bobby Hull	158​
Howie Morenz	153​
Charlie Conacher	152​
Ted Lindsay	149​
Peter Forsberg	114​

McDavid has played 408 "adjusted" games (see the thread for the details of how this is calculated) at a league-leading PPG pace. He already ranks 4th, going back nearly a century. The only three names ahead of him are the consensus three greatest forwards in hockey history.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Yeah mcdavid needs some cups or this discussion is pointless. Not one top 10 player is without with a smythe or retro

 

[Crosby2010]

Yeah mcdavid needs some cups or this discussion is pointless. Not one top 10 player is without with a smythe or retro

He does, yes. Really baseball is the only sport where we can get away with calling someone an all-time great among the top 10 who never won a championship. Most people may have all three of Cobb, Bonds and Williams in their top 10. Maybe some have the first two as their #1 guy (I don't, its still Ruth) but we can't do this in hockey. Or basketball or even football when judging QBs at least. What is the first thing we think of when comparing Marino to Montana? Fair or not. You have to win the big one if you are that high up in hockey. And even so, all 4 of the big 4 get this "Couldn't they have won more" feel about them too.

 

[Riddum]

Thing is, scoring this year was slightly higher than in the 1995-96 season. 6.4GPGPT vs 6.3 in 1995-96... That year, Jagr finished 2nd in the league with 82GP 62G 87A 149PTS. Mario Lemieux? 70GP 69G 92A 161PTS.

McDavid is below Gretzky and Lemieux but he's in Jagr's tier, who is easily above guys like Ovi and Sid.

 

[brooksyp]

He's one of the best I've seen although no Lemieux

 

[Video Nasty]

Thing is, scoring this year was slightly higher than in the 1995-96 season. 6.4GPGPT vs 6.3 in 1995-96... That year, Jagr finished 2nd in the league with 82GP 62G 87A 149PTS. Mario Lemieux? 70GP 69G 92A 161PTS.

McDavid is below Gretzky and Lemieux but he's in Jagr's tier, who is easily above guys like Ovi and Sid.

He’s surpassed Jagr, no question about it.

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid is fast as f***. But even the talk of players in the 80’s/90’s being ‘out of shape’ is bullshit.

Check out how jacked Pavel Bure was.

These hockey players today are not in better shape than the elites of yesterday.

Gretzky could play 40 minutes a night

Tyson was a product of 80’s nutrition and fitness too

Do you like have a collection of NHL superstars with their shirts off or something.......but hey everyone has different tastes eh?

I do get your point though but it's an endless circle with zero chance of agreeing on anything definitive IMO.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

With 850 career points, I wonder what the betting odds would be for McDavid reaching 1000 by the end of next season? Probably pretty close to 50/50.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'd rather talk about his career right now rather than what might happen. No one doubts he's a great player. But in reality it was only this year where he hit a level that Crosby wasn't hitting. Acting as if this sort of season was normal for him isn't accurate. We'll see if he can maintain it. It took him until his 8th season to do it though. Gretzky in his 8th season had a 183 point year and never had that high of a season again (1988 he does if he plays all the games). It's hard. The season you saw was incredible and it will hardly be easy for him to do that again.

20/21 as well. And the 21/22 playoffs.

21/22 regular season he had terrible puck luck. Probably would have been 140ish points if things went half right.

So he's been at his current level for 3 years now.

 

[Video Nasty]

20/21 as well. And the 21/22 playoffs.

21/22 regular season he had terrible puck luck. Probably would have been 140ish points if things went half right.

So he's been at his current level for 3 years now.

Reality is nothing compared to the fairy tale of Crosby playing 99 games over the course of 3 seasons.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Thing is, scoring this year was slightly higher than in the 1995-96 season. 6.4GPGPT vs 6.3 in 1995-96... That year, Jagr finished 2nd in the league with 82GP 62G 87A 149PTS. Mario Lemieux? 70GP 69G 92A 161PTS.

McDavid is below Gretzky and Lemieux but he's in Jagr's tier, who is easily above guys like Ovi and Sid.

Youre talking peak Jagr, and still it falls short. Jagr played 82 games, had 149 pts, and was the secondary driver on that team to Lemieux who played 85% less games and had 161 pts. Lemeiuxs stats seem closer to McDavid than Jagr. McDavid has more years to prove his peak also while being the main driver

 

[beowulf]

IMO Orr, Lemieux and 99 are and will remain as the best players of all time! But 97 is the first player in recent year to join the dance!

Indeed, I mean Crosby is still slightly ahead of him for me due to playoff success but if McDavid can get a Cup and a Smyth he will blow by him and Ovi.

 

[waitin425]

It is so hard to compare players in a historical context. No science behind it, and it is purely hypothetical.

That being said, McDavid has to do some amazing things to get into that discussion from a historical perspective. A good start, and achievable one, might be winning the Cup and Conn Smythe this year, and beating Gretzky's single season playoff point total of 47. Would take a near 2 PPG pace right to the Cup finals to do so.

 

[Riddum]

He’s surpassed Jagr, no question about it.

For me, one more Art Ross and I will clearly put him above Jagr. For now, McDavid is slightly above, at best.